Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

Bullzeyebill

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Yeah the RCR123 cells do over-drive the LEDs, but yours is the first case I have read of them severely over-driving them:thinking:. Many members use their A2s like me with RCR123 cells, with no ill-effects.

I think there is a way to change SMT resistors and mod the LED ring to drive the Nichias at a lower current. But, I think primaries work best in the A2 for the added run time (3 times as long as RCR123).

I wonder if using cheaper non-IMR cells like mine will help?

It would be interesting to see if our results will be the same swapping our lamps... I'm willing to bet its your white LEDs giving you a ~10L boost.

The red LEDs each have a 100ohm resistor, more than enough to protect the LEDs with the over current of the RCR's. They do end up brighter than on two CR123's, but I think that they handle the over voltage better than the white's which have fairly low resistors; can't remember the ohm rating. The whites certainly add the 10 lumens.

During the lightmeter benchmark passaround years ago, one of the passaround lights was McGizmo's A2 with the LED ring removed, and we tested the lights for lux with our various lightmeters. Later all the the lights were tested in an IS by a reputed lab, and the A2, at the time tested at 68 lumens without the LED ring. Batteries were all primary cells. Re the A2, a fresh bulb might have tested higher.

Bill

correction made re lumen output of A2
 
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milkyspit

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...It seems these twisties are better at higher current. I bet the McClicky E-series mods will be even better too.[/SIZE]


BC, couple thoughts. First, the above statement is absolutely true... the culprit is resistance. In electronics, the impact that resistance plays increases geometrically with current... the amount of input power in watts that ends up lost, is equal to I^2R, which in English reads, "current (in amps) squared, times resistance (in ohms)." So as current increases, the losses increase dramatically.

One thing you might try in your E1B tail: get a piece of heavy copper braid as uses in desoldering tape, tuck one end under the bottom of the tailspring, and loop the other end over the top of the tailspring... make sure the top will get pinned directly under the cells. See if that helps. The braid will drastically increase the current-carrying capacity of the spring (reducing its resistance) and just might show some benefit. Of course, the clicky core itself will remain as a source of potentially high resistance, but at least you'll eliminate one of the sources that way. It would be an interesting test to see the difference that copper braid might make.

BTW, look to the extreme hotwire crowd for inspiration here as they've been addressing this sort of issue for years.

As for your results, I never would have imagined your Room Sweeper would go over 700 lumens, even momentarily, on an IMR16340. That warms the heart. (No pun intended!) ;)

My guess would be that most of the dropoff you're seeing in the tests is a result of the cells themselves being unable to keep up for long... and the tailswitch resistance doesn't help, either.
 

kramer5150

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Here is what the Milky SST-50 Copper RoomSweeper does:


Surefire E1e___________SST-50 DD______________1 IMR 16340__________ 722.3______1 sec________________________
Milky RoomSweeper______________________________________________ 526.9______30 sec________________________
________________________________________________________________ 513.1______1 min_________________________
___________________________________________3.5A at tail___________ 511.5______2 min________________________
________________________________________________________________ 504.6______3 min________________________
Surefire E1e___________SST-50 DD______________ 2 NiZn AA __________ 584.6______1 sec________________________
Milky RoomSweeper______________________________________________ 523.8______30 sec________________________
________________________________________________________________ 481.5______1 min_________________________
___________________________________________1.8A at tail___________ 466.2______2 min________________________
________________________________________________________________ 468.5______3 min________________________

Number crunching some efficiencies out of these measurements:

1xIMR16340 at 2 minutes, 511Lu:
3.5A x 4.2V = 14.7 Watts
This yields 34.7 Lumens / Watt

2xAA at 2 minutes, 466Lu:
1.8A x 3.2V = 5.7 Watts
This yields 81.7 Lumens / Watt

Based on Lumens/Watt, the efficiency its more than double using the 2AA setup.

Why is there such a HUGE difference? I expect thermal losses to play a factor... but more than double? Something doesn't add up...?
Curious... can an IMR16340 withstand a 3.5A load and survive with any kind of life expectancy at that rate?

thanks!! Great work guys, always learning something new on CPF.
 
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Yoda4561

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Here's my guess, it's the current capability of the IMR battery hurting more than helping. It's able to push a huge amount of current, thus generating more waste energy as heat, both at the tailcap and at the LED, since the heatsinking can't keep up with that excess heat generation for more than a second or so, you see that really bad looking Lumens/watt figure at similar output levels.

edit: Regarding current draw, just went to look it up. I know it was high but couldn't remember the exact figure. I've seen 8c thrown around, so 4.4 amps is the max operating current these can take. 3.6 is fairly high, so the cycle life probably won't be great, but I'd wager in excess of 100 charges.
 
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Bullzeyebill

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Number crunching some efficiencies out of these measurements:

1xIMR16340 at 2 minutes, 511Lu:
3.5A x 4.2V = 14.7 Watts
This yields 34.7 Lumens / Watt

2xAA at 2 minutes, 466Lu:
1.8A x 3.2V = 5.7 Watts
This yields 81.7 Lumens / Watt

Based on Lumens/Watt, the efficiency its more than double using the 2AA setup.

Why is there such a HUGE difference? I expect thermal losses to play a factor... but more than double? Something doesn't add up...?
Curious... can an IMR16340 withstand a 3.5A load and survive with any kind of life expectancy at that rate?

thanks!! Great work guys, always learning something new on CPF.

Could be that as heat drops power, the current also drops, using the IMR. No such issue with the zn AA's that can not deliver that kind of initial current to the LED. Thinking out loud here.:thinking:

Bill
 

milkyspit

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Here's my guess, it's the current capability of the IMR battery hurting more than helping. It's able to push a huge amount of current, thus generating more waste energy as heat, both at the tailcap and at the LED, since the heatsinking can't keep up with that excess heat generation for more than a second or so, you see that really bad looking Lumens/watt figure at similar output levels.

edit: Regarding current draw, just went to look it up. I know it was high but couldn't remember the exact figure. I've seen 8c thrown around, so 4.4 amps is the max operating current these can take. 3.6 is fairly high, so the cycle life probably won't be great, but I'd wager in excess of 100 charges.


I'd agree with just about all of that, with the exception of the head end heatsinking not keeping up. Look at the IMR readings AFTER that initial reading... output remains higher than in the AA case, and more importantly, hardly budges at all over the entire three minutes.

I think the IMR cell is simply starting at an insane rate of current draw but very quickly (within seconds) sags badly... and it's a glass half full vs. half empty kind of thing in that you could conclude the IMR cell can't maintain its current flow adequately well, or you could conclude that even with the dropoff, it still manages to do markedly better than the AA cells through the entire test, and does so in a much smaller form factor. Both are true! Just depends how you want to look at it.

Also, the lumens per watt calculations aren't quite right as I suspect neither cell holds those voltages under load... I know for sure the IMR is nowhere near 4.2V under load... and the current draw is continually decreasing as well, especially in initial seconds of the run.
 

Yoda4561

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That's something I kind of glossed over while thinking about it, tests on direct drive SST-50's have shown hundreds of lumens can potentially be lost by using a stock tailcap at high currents (due to higher resistance as the tailcap heats up??) . For some reason I keep associating the roomsweeper with an ssc P7, I bet low resistance tailcap mods will provide big benefits with that IMR battery.
 

HeyGuysWatchThis

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Forgive me if I missed it, but has the Quark Mini 123 with the original neutral white emitter (from December) been tested? I'm curious what mine puts out compared to the regular ones.
 

bigchelis

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Forgive me if I missed it, but has the Quark Mini 123 with the original neutral white emitter (from December) been tested? I'm curious what mine puts out compared to the regular ones.


I have it, but I need to update my list. The thruth is there are at least 20~40 lights I still need to put on the lists. This is just time consuming.


The good news is that I did test it and its just a little bit less.

For now the super duper bright and exotic lights get 1st priority:whistle:


Lucky for you the answer is here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/278032
 
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bigchelis

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Here is the Milky Roomsweeper with the already published OTF numbers when I used the stock clickie tailcap. Now; I re-tested with a E-series twistie.


Surefire E1e___________SST-50 DD______________1 IMR 16340__________ 722.3______1 sec________________________
Milky RoomSweeper______________________________________________ 526.9______30 sec________________________
________________________________________________________________ 513.1______1 min_________________________
___________________________________________3.5A at tail___________ 511.5______2 min________________________
________________________________________________________________ 504.6______3 min________________________
Surefire E1e___________SST-50 DD______________1 IMR 16340__________ 784.6______1 sec________________________
Milky RoomSweeper_______________________________________________538.5______30 sec________________________
__________________E-series Twiste__________________________________526.2______1 min_________________________
___________________________________________3.5A at tail____________ 517.7______2 min________________________
________________________________________________________________ 507.7______3 min________________________
 

hoongern

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Number crunching some efficiencies out of these measurements:

1xIMR16340 at 2 minutes, 511Lu:
3.5A x 4.2V = 14.7 Watts
This yields 34.7 Lumens / Watt

2xAA at 2 minutes, 466Lu:
1.8A x 3.2V = 5.7 Watts
This yields 81.7 Lumens / Watt

Based on Lumens/Watt, the efficiency its more than double using the 2AA setup.

Why is there such a HUGE difference? I expect thermal losses to play a factor... but more than double? Something doesn't add up...?
Curious... can an IMR16340 withstand a 3.5A load and survive with any kind of life expectancy at that rate?

thanks!! Great work guys, always learning something new on CPF.

For the IMR16340, at 3.5A (6C discharge), they aren't 4.2V, but actually closer to 3.6V (I'm trying to find AW's discharge graph, but his thread seems to have disappeared).

However, I'm a bit mystified by the current readings from the 2xAA. If you look at the SST-50 specs, the highest bin is rated at 425lm @ 1.75A, with Vf ~ 3.2V. (which is about what you'd get with 2xAA @ 1.8A)

To produce 585 LED lumens (not even talking about OTF here), you'd need 2.4Amps to the LED.

On the other hand, at 3.5Amps (from the IMR16340), you get 808 LED lumens according to the SST-50 datasheet, which seems about correct.
 

bigchelis

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For the IMR16340, at 3.5A (6C discharge), they aren't 4.2V, but actually closer to 3.6V (I'm trying to find AW's discharge graph, but his thread seems to have disappeared).

However, I'm a bit mystified by the current readings from the 2xAA. If you look at the SST-50 specs, the highest bin is rated at 425lm @ 1.75A, with Vf ~ 3.2V. (which is about what you'd get with 2xAA @ 1.8A)

To produce 585 LED lumens (not even talking about OTF here), you'd need 2.4Amps to the LED.

On the other hand, at 3.5Amps (from the IMR16340), you get 808 LED lumens according to the SST-50 datasheet, which seems about correct.



The 2 AA NiZn cells are 3.6V input ( no load)

3.8V * 1.8A = 6.84 WATTS ( no load )

It seems that underdriven these high power emitters run more efficient. AT under 7 wats of power this AA NiZn combo nets 500ish OTF overall and I like those numbers.

The Malkoff Wildcat Tripple at 8~9watts = 750~800 OTF when those XP-G's are underdriven at 900mA each.:whistle:


This versatility is why I like direct drive builds!:party:!!!
 

hoongern

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The 2 AA NiZn cells are 3.6V input ( no load)

3.8V * 1.8A = 6.84 WATTS ( no load )

It seems that underdriven these high power emitters run more efficient. AT under 7 wats of power this AA NiZn combo nets 500ish OTF overall and I like those numbers.

The Malkoff Wildcat Tripple at 8~9watts = 750~800 OTF when those XP-G's are underdriven at 900mA each.:whistle:


This versatility is why I like direct drive builds!:party:!!!

Whoops, I was a bit mistaken - I was looking at the wrong bin. The specifications of the SST-50 show the following:

WJ bin Flux @ 1.75 A : 500-600 LED lumens

I guess that if the SST-50 in that build is a top-bin one, then 500 OTF would be possible w/ 1.8A.

WJ bin Flux @ 3.5A: 190%, i.e. 950 -1150 LED lumens

My guess is that the heat kills the OTF lumens with the IMR cell... The flux ratings are at 25 degrees celcius.

(Also, for reference, Ni-Zns run about 1.7V each at 1.5Amp discharge. At 1.8Amps, it'll probably be ~ 1.6V each, just a guess. Looks like you have a low Vf emitter)
 

recDNA

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The 2 AA NiZn cells are 3.6V input ( no load)

3.8V * 1.8A = 6.84 WATTS ( no load )

It seems that underdriven these high power emitters run more efficient. AT under 7 wats of power this AA NiZn combo nets 500ish OTF overall and I like those numbers.

The Malkoff Wildcat Tripple at 8~9watts = 750~800 OTF when those XP-G's are underdriven at 900mA each.:whistle:


This versatility is why I like direct drive builds!:party:!!!

I agree. When the goal is blow em away output DD is best.
 

milkyspit

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I guess that if the SST-50 in that build is a top-bin one, then 500 OTF would be possible w/ 1.8A.

I can assure you that it is! That is, unless my supplier flat-out lied to me, which is highly unlikely.

At 3.5A on the SST-50 the scaling factor appears to be roughly 1.8 (=180%). From my experiences with SST-50 so far, most WJ bin tend to sit toward the low end of the range for brightness... so at 3.5A, I would expect to see 500 x 1.8 = 900 lumens at the emitter. That seems entirely plausible given what BC was observing.

At 1.8A, the scaling factor is probably closer to 1.10. Assuming bottom-of-bin as above, that suggests 550 lumens from the emitter.

It's also likely the meter itself introduced some added resistance in the circuit, which means the actual current draw in both cases was probably a bit higher than measured... not dramatically higher, but a little. So both lumen ratings above are probably a bit low. In the case of 3.5A, the heat probably did de-rate the output... again, not dramatically, but a little.

My guess is that the heat kills the OTF lumens with the IMR cell... The flux ratings are at 25 degrees celcius.

I suspect at 3.5A that heat does play a role, but only minor... and whatever role it plays exists from the very beginning. The big drop from 1s to 30s is a lot simpler to explain than that: the IMR cell cannot sustain that sort of current draw for more than a few seconds before the voltage under load sags enough to bring down the current, and hence the output. That's supported by the discharge curve of pretty much any lithium-chemistry cell: in the first instants of the run, the cell's voltage drops my roughly 10% before settling into a very flat discharge for most of the remaining runtime. That's exactly what we see here.

(Also, for reference, Ni-Zns run about 1.7V each at 1.5Amp discharge. At 1.8Amps, it'll probably be ~ 1.6V each, just a guess. Looks like you have a low Vf emitter)

Thanks for the link to the graph! That's handy. :thumbsup:

The graph seems to show 1.6V for most of the cell's runtime at 1.5A discharge. I'd respectfully suggest that 1.8A pulls things down closer to 1.5V, although you're right, in the first seconds of the run your voltage guesstimates are probably about right.

Yes, the emitter has a particularly low Vf. That's no accident! With this Room Sweeper Special Reserve, as with just about all the builds in the Milky Labs, I hand-selected the emitter for best match to the light and its intended circuit (in this case direct drive) and power source. I design lights in terms of the overall system rather than a collection of individual components. Wrote a very long-winded post about the design methodology years ago when I introduced the Project-M family.

Most important to me in this case: hope BigChelis likes his Room Sweeper!
 

bigchelis

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In regards the the Milky RoomSweeper there is a big problem I have:

My other half saw it:ohgeez: Now; she said I better leave it with her. She 1st confiscated my M30 w/VME twistie keychain and now she is begging for this roomsweeper.

I guess another roomsweeper might be needed for me nowlovecpf
 

recDNA

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Are you going to test a production Maelstron G5? There were claims of additional output in the production model.
 

bigchelis

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Are you going to test a production Maelstron G5? There were claims of additional output in the production model.


I think Ti-Force did a review on it and he has a IS Sphere that MrGman helped him calibrate. Check the reviews section I am sure its there with all the OTF numbers too.:thumbsup:
 
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