Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

[Burgess]

Thank you to everybody for this great information.

:twothumbs
_

 

[adamlau]

As I stated in another post: S90V and M4 are the blade steels to look for in a folder. A little bit exotic, kinda exclusive and if the heat treat is within spec, the blade steels to beat. Next up are ZDP-189, followed by S30V and M2. 440A/C/V will cut just as well for most users, but we are not most users are we? We all want the good stuff and will pay a slight premium for just that, right ? I know I would and I do!

 

[Monocrom]

As I stated in another post: S90V and M4 are the blade steels to look for in a folder. A little bit exotic, kinda exclusive and if the heat treat is within spec, the blade steels to beat. Next up are ZDP-189, followed by S30V and M2. 440A/C/V will cut just as well for most users, but we are not most users are we? We all want the good stuff and will pay a slight premium for just that, right ? I know I would and I do!

Good stuff??

440C will easily keep up with many of the exotics out there. I've heard some custom knifemakers say that they would still be using 440C, but their customers insist on going with the modern-day exotics; and they are indeed willing to pay more for the "good stuff." What's a custom knifemaker supposed to do, turn down a sale? Only encountered one individual who was that arrogent. Not even sure if he's still making knives.

Nothing wrong with going for the exotics. But I honestly have yet to encounter something that significantly outperforms a properly heat-treated 440C blade. It might be a plain Jane, but a bit of make-up and the right dress; and you've got a real head-turner.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

Good stuff??

440C will easily keep up with many of the exotics out there. I've heard some custom knifemakers say that they would still be using 440C, but their customers insist on going with the modern-day exotics; and they are indeed willing to pay more for the "good stuff." What's a custom knifemaker supposed to do, turn down a sale? Only encountered one individual who was that arrogent. Not even sure if he's still making knives.

Nothing wrong with going for the exotics. But I honestly have yet to encounter something that significantly outperforms a properly heat-treated 440C blade. It might be a plain Jane, but a bit of make-up and the right dress; and you've got a real head-turner.

440C will easily keep up with many of the exotics out there.

Not in edge retention it will not! 440C is a joke in edge holding compared to D2 and S30V. Even VG-10 beat it hands down. And then when compared to ZDP-189, CPM-M4 and S90V the difference is simply brutal.

Many custom knifemakers still preach by 440C simply because it's a pretty easy steel to work with, and it takes the BEST finish among all stainless steels hands down.

So if you want a very pretty blade that has excellent stain resistance but not so great toughness and egde retention, 440C is the way to go. If you want a very tough blade which takes a finer edge and holds it for longer but it doesn't resist rust so well, then plain carbon or tool steel is your choice. Wonder why most bushcraft/wilderness blades are made with High-Carbon steel and not stainless steels?

 

[Monocrom]

Wonder why most bushcraft/wilderness blades are made with High-Carbon steel and not stainless steels?

I'm thinking it has to do with the fact that native Bushmen are often found in more underdeveloped parts of the world. The stainless steels they have access to is the cheap stuff. In comparison, even the lesser carbon steels will put the lesser stainless steels to shame.

As for edge retention, the other steels that you mentioned are certainly better than 440C. But my experience is that they are not that much beter. But some of the exotics are certainly a bit better at attracting rust. Look at ZDP-189. As mossyoak pointed out, Sal has to sandwich this exotic in between 440C because it'll rust so easily.

I'm happy to trade off just a bit of edge retention to get a blade that's very rust-resistant. As for edge retention, that's what carbon steels are for.

But as far as D2 goes, oh yeah it's got extremely good edge retention over 440C, and practically over everything else out there too.... And you need the patience of a Saint in order to sharpen a dull D2 blade. That, or access to some laser-sharpening equipment.

 

[adamlau]

Do any of us longtime users really worry about rust? Pre and post use maintenance is the key! Swipes with mineral oil for food grade applications and Ren Wax/TUF-CLOTH for all other situations have kept even my high carbon blades rust free. Or induce a patina. Reduce your worries! A dull D2 blade is easily reworked across a Sharpmaker with diamond triangles, or a belt sander and finished across black and green .

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

Do any of us longtime users really worry about rust? Pre and post use maintenance is the key! Swipes with mineral oil for food grade applications and Ren Wax/TUF-CLOTH for all other situations have kept even my high carbon blades rust free. Or induce a patina. Reduce your worries! A dull D2 blade is easily reworked across a Sharpmaker with diamond triangles, or a belt sander and finished across black and green .

Very well said! a Harbor Freight sander is 40 bucks and works better and faster than any expensiove sharpening system in the market, bar none. There is no excuse for letting a blade go dull.

And yes, mineral oil when storing your blade, again, no excuses for rust.

 

[Monocrom]

Very well said! a Harbor Freight sander is 40 bucks and works better and faster than any expensiove sharpening system in the market, bar none. There is no excuse for letting a blade go dull.

And yes, mineral oil when storing your blade, again, no excuses for rust.

I'm half tempted to get a dremel tool and go to town on my Bob Dozier K-4 model.... But it's still hair-popping sharp, and I'm only half tempted.

Yeah, a nice thin coating of oil on the entire blade is a must before storing, at least with carbon steel and D2.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

I'm half tempted to get a dremel tool and go to town on my Bob Dozier K-4 model.... But it's still hair-popping sharp, and I'm only half tempted.

Yeah, a nice thin coating of oil on the entire blade is a must before storing, at least with carbon steel and D2.

Don't try that with a Dremel. Use the right tool for the job, a belt-sander is the way to go. Check this out:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=2485

 

[Monocrom]

Don't try that with a Dremel. Use the right tool for the job, a belt-sander is the way to go. Check this out:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=2485

Hey, that looks sweet. I appreciate the link. :thanks:

 

[guyg]

Ditto's on keeping knife clean. I've never had a knife rust. FWIW the best blade by far is my Sebenza in BG42. I only have to sharpen it 4 times a year.

 

[jzmtl]

zdp will rust up pretty easy thats why spydie laminates zdp189 between two layers of 440c in alot of their knives.

I think it was mentioned that the real reason is that they can't punch thicker zdp stocks in golden facility, so that's why they have laminated zdp from golden while solid zdp from seki city.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

I think it was mentioned that the real reason is that they can't punch thicker zdp stocks in golden facility, so that's why they have laminated zdp from golden while solid zdp from seki city.

Am I the only only who thinks that something is wrong here? I've never seen a single Golden-made Spydie using Japanese steel. Nor have I ever seen a laminate blade using ZDP-189. I've seen VG-10 laminates from Fallkniven (which is made in Japan as well) but never a single Spyderco with such blade composition. Neither from Seki nor from Golden. And BTW, some of these super-hard steels are made using composite blade technique by sandwiching different steels not because of rusting issues, but only because it gives greater strength. Stainless steels are brittle, especially these ubber hard and high wear resistant exotic stainless...

They don't have ZDP stocks in the Colorado facility simply because, apparently, the Japanese just won't export them...

 

[m16a]

Funny, the more I get into knives, the more I think.. Why oh Why didn't I buy a D2 grippy from cabelas??? Oh right, no $80 to do so..

Ah well, its still a good blade with a good steel!:twothumbs

 

[jzmtl]

Am I the only only who thinks that something is wrong here? I've never seen a single Golden-made Spydie using Japanese steel. Nor have I ever seen a laminate blade using ZDP-189. I've seen VG-10 laminates from Fallkniven (which is made in Japan as well) but never a single Spyderco with such blade composition. Neither from Seki nor from Golden. And BTW, some of these super-hard steels are made using composite blade technique by sandwiching different steels not because of rusting issues, but only because it gives greater strength. Stainless steels are brittle, especially these ubber hard and high wear resistant exotic stainless...

They don't have ZDP stocks in the Colorado facility simply because, apparently, the Japanese just won't export them...

I could've swore I read that on spyderco forum, was said by one of the staff as a matter of fact. :shrug:

 

[OCDGearhead]

Not in edge retention it will not! 440C is a joke in edge holding compared to D2 and S30V. Even VG-10 beat it hands down. And then when compared to ZDP-189, CPM-M4 and S90V the difference is simply brutal.

Many custom knifemakers still preach by 440C simply because it's a pretty easy steel to work with, and it takes the BEST finish among all stainless steels hands down.

So if you want a very pretty blade that has excellent stain resistance but not so great toughness and egde retention, 440C is the way to go. If you want a very tough blade which takes a finer edge and holds it for longer but it doesn't resist rust so well, then plain carbon or tool steel is your choice. Wonder why most bushcraft/wilderness blades are made with High-Carbon steel and not stainless steels?

Good post. I have all of these steels in various knives, Bark River, Mcusta, Sekicut, Benchmade, Shun & others.

There is a big difference in edge holding stepping down to 440c. At best is is a couple to several points lower on the Rockwell scale. I do not buy 440c any longer, there are plenty of better alternatives for a discriminating buyer.

 

[Monocrom]

Good post. I have all of these steels in various knives, Bark River, Mcusta, Sekicut, Benchmade, Shun & others.

There is a big difference in edge holding stepping down to 440c. At best is is a couple to several points lower on the Rockwell scale. I do not buy 440c any longer, there are plenty of better alternatives for a discriminating buyer.

I went the route of being a "discriminating buyer."

After awhile, I decided I'd rather have a stainless steel that was truly stainless and didn't require specialized equipment to keep the blade sharp.

Besides, I prefer beer and Doritos instead of wine and fine cheese.

(Still, being from Russia; I know where to get quality caviar at potato chip prices).

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

I went the route of being a "discriminating buyer."

After awhile, I decided I'd rather have a stainless steel that was truly stainless and didn't require specialized equipment to keep the blade sharp.

Besides, I prefer beer and Doritos instead of wine and fine cheese.

(Still, being from Russia; I know where to get quality caviar at potato chip prices).

I think we either don't live in the same world or you have never actually used a modern stainless steel. VG-10 is a bliss to work with, it takes a mean edge, holds it and is pretty darn easy to sharpen. It is also 100% rust free. Specialized equipment? Common ceramic rods or croc sticks make quick short work of VG-10, 154CM or S30V, no problems there. I can say the same about INFI, it is the easiest steel to keep and maintain I've ever used.

440C is WWII old technology, I don't want that in my knives. If it's too soft, the egde ain't worth a crap, if it's adequately hard it's brittle as glass. Great steel for presentation knives, but I don't want that in my hard use knives nor in my high-end folders.

 

[Monocrom]

I think we either don't live in the same world or you have never actually used a modern stainless steel. VG-10 is a bliss to work with, it takes a mean edge, holds it and is pretty darn easy to sharpen. It is also 100% rust free. Specialized equipment? Common ceramic rods or croc sticks make quick short work of VG-10, 154CM or S30V, no problems there. I can say the same about INFI, it is the easiest steel to keep and maintain I've ever used.

440C is WWII old technology, I don't want that in my knives. If it's too soft, the egde ain't worth a crap, if it's adequately hard it's brittle as glass. Great steel for presentation knives, but I don't want that in my hard use knives nor in my high-end folders.

A few years ago, I'd save up my money to buy the latest exotics. Must admit, I do like VG-10. The others were a disappointment in one form or another. True, ceramic and diamond rods work for resharpening. But I found that the ceramics took too long. And some collectors have a profound hatred for diamond rods and sharpening stones. (Some feel they take off too much metal from the cutting edge).

When it comes to being a "discriminating buyer," been there; done that.

You're right. 440C is old. But that also means it's time-proven. Hell, Jeeps date back to WWII as well. People still buy the same basic Jeep design because it's time-proven. Certainly far from perfect, but still dependable enough that folks rely on it.

Check out the post George left in his 2009 CPF Knife thread. A certain blade steel took on the job of cutting through a moose, and did quite well at it.

 

[RA40]

To throw this in:

Consider that one also has to factor in bevel design-angles, edge bevel, grit used when sharpening the edge bevel, thickness...heat treat. This is left out in most steel discussions.

Make up a handful of knives with near same build tolerances. All steels heat treated to their prospective working hardness levels, then compare. Start cutting 1" hemp rope you may well find the 440-C gave way at X cuts and D2 or steel XXX went so many cuts. It could be a slight margin or more. This all changes the moment you sharpen it since it will change the dynamics of the edge. So all of what steel X, Y can do has too many variables involved to simply define performance. In lab testing yes, real world use...good luck.

This is like saying car X has so much horsepower and is "better" over car Y, neglecting car weight, gearing....