Confusion of each Eneloop generation.

[ChrisGarrett]

You seem to have been taken.

Who are you buying your batteries from? Amazon is dealing with FAKE Eneloop sales among its vendors.

Your package states 1800x, which is Gen 3 and you got Gen 2 1500x.

If you paid more than $10/4 pack, delivered, you got ripped off IMO.

Look for the micro-embossed date codes on your batteries.

It's right need the wrapper seam.

Chris

 

[ChibiM]

So you paid for 3rd gen, and got 2nd gen... could you see any damage to the package? Like they were opened up to change the batts inside?

 

[TinderBox (UK)]

All Eneloop batteries 2005-2013

John.

 

[Replicant]

Recently I bought 2nd generation cells from Costco that were in packaging that rated them at 1800 charges. I assume it's an error in the packaging.

If Amazon was the actual seller (sold by and shipped from), I wouldn't be concerned.

 

[mdixon]

Recently I bought 2nd generation cells from Costco that were in packaging that rated them at 1800 charges. I assume it's an error in the packaging. If Amazon was the actual seller (sold by and shipped from), I wouldn't be concerned.

ok thanks. it was amazon sold by/shipped and if you got the same mismarked package from somewhere else then mine must be fine.

amazon was advertising gen2, that's what I intended to buy and what I received. it's just that they all came in gen3 packaging which made me wonder if they might not have come from sanyo/panasonic. because I could see if one or the other was the only one mismarked but both the AA and AAA packages/contents didn't match, plus the dates of the batteries (march - may 2013) seemed like an awful long time for a factory packaging issue to continue.

 

[mojo-chan]

Sometimes people buy up bankrupt or old stock and simply repackage them, hoping no-one will notice. The cells might be real but the packaging fake. Unfortunately there is no way to tell, so I'd just return them and demand certifiable ones.

 

[Rosoku Chikara]

I am actually looking for non-LSD NiMH. I wish to find something of high life span like the new 5000x Eneloop. The low capacity of 1000mAh is OK...[excerpted]

Well, ALW248, it seems to me that these may be what you are looking for:



They are Panasonic Ni-MH batteries designed for use in audio equipment. Haven't found any mention of the number of recharge cycles so far, but capacities are 700 mAh for the AAA, and 2000 mAh for the AA.

 

[Rosoku Chikara]

I must confess to remaining more than a bit confused as to what exactly is going on with the Eneloop Panasonic situation, but here is some new information I found on the Japanese Panasonic website:



(I have translated most of the writing into English, while attempting to leave their original graphic design intact.)

As you can see, Panasonic offers three models (Standard, Economy, and High-End) for both their "Eneloop" product line and their "Rechargeable Evolta" product line. And, they offer them side-by-side. The minimum mAh ratings, and approximate number of recharge cycles are as stated in the above graphic.

So, what is the difference? Well, it is not so clearly stated on that page, but if you search further you can find the following information:

- The "Standard Model" Eneloop (part numbers BK-3MCC and BK-4MCC, for AA and AAA, respectively) are said to hold about 90% of their capacity after 1 year.

- The "Economy Model" Eneloop (part numbers BK-3LCC and BK-4LCC, for AA and AAA, respectively) are said to hold about 85% of their capacity after 1 year.

- The "High-End Model" Eneloop (part numbers BK-3HCC and BK-4HCC, for AA and AAA, respectively) are also said to hold about 85% of their capacity after 1 year.

- The "Standard Model" Rechargeable Evolta (part numbers BK-3MLE and BK-4MLE, for AA and AAA, respectively) are said to hold about 80% of their capacity after 1 year.

- The "Economy Model" Rechargeable Evolta (part numbers BK-3LLB and BK-4LLB, for AA and AAA, respectively) are said to hold about 85% of their capacity after 1 year.

- The "High-End Model" Rechargeable Evolta (part numbers BK-3HLC and BK-4HLC, for AA and AAA, respectively) are said to hold about 65% of their capacity after 1 year.

I cannot find much information about capacity ratings after more than 1 year. (The product detail page for Eneloop batteries says that they hold 90% of their charge after one year, and also adds something like "and these batteries are still usable even after five years," without making any specific claim as to percentage capacity after five years. The product detail page for Evolta rechargeables makes no mention at all of their ability to hold their capacity over time. I did find one "inner" page in the Eneloop section that reiterates Eneloop's famous claim of 90% capacity after 1 year, and 70% capacity after 5 years, but in my opinion, this fact is not being well publicized by Panasonic.)

This may be because most Japanese are not very concerned about whether or not their batteries retain a charge that far into the future (they probably figure, and rightly so, that most likely they would have recharged them before that long), or it may be an intentional effort by Panasonic to "mask" the most significant difference between the Eneloop and the Evolta product lines. While I couldn't find any clear statement of this fact on these Japanese websites, I believe that at the end of the 2nd year, the capacities of all the above "Rechargeable Evolta" models would be at zero, or near zero, whereas the "Eneloops" would all still be going relatively strong...

(Therefore, it now appears that, despite my earlier post in this thread stating that I believed the new "black" Evolta to be a new LSD product, I think this line-up of three Evolta rechargeable models are all non-LSD, or perhaps, "semi-LSD" at most.)

This same webpage also provides the following update on Panasonic battery chargers and Panasonic battery compatibility:



It appears that all previous models of battery chargers, other than those listed as "new" at the bottom of the above chart (BQ-CC11, BQ-CC21, etc.), have been discontinued. Perhaps some of our battery charger experts can explain "why" (if indeed Panasonic's claim is true), but Panasonic is claiming that their "new" battery chargers are much better because you can now (for the first time) charge all your old and new, Eneloop and Evolta batteries with a single model charger. (Actually, I thought that that was never any problem to begin with.)

 

[Rosoku Chikara]

In a previous post on this thread, I pointed out that Japanese girls were complaining about the renaming of Eneloop batteries to the Panasonic name. (They felt that the design and "look" of the word "Panasonic" on the battery, was far less feminine than the original word "eneloop" which was perceived as much softer looking...)

While they have not removed the "troublesome" Panasonic name, the following appears to be Panasonic's attempt to make the Japanese girls happy:

 

[Rosoku Chikara]

Now, for the confusing part... or at least, the part that has got me "confused." All the info in my above recent posts came from Panasonic websites such as panasonic.com/jp and panasonic.jp that are written in Japanese. But, my information that I wrote in a previous post (which now appears to be "disinformation") about the "black" Rechargeable Evolta batteries being LSD, came from some English site. I cannot seem to find the same information again, but I have found where the English language site Panasonic.net makes the following statement about what appears to be "Standard Model" Rechargeable Evoltas:

Ready-to-use reliability - The batteries are packaged with a full charge on board so you can start using them right after purchase. Our advanced self-discharge control system retains about 85% of its original capacity after a year in storage, so you can enjoy reliable EVOLTA performance when you need it most.

Furthermore, a battery review by a British website makes the following statements about what appears to be the very same "Standard Model" Rechargeable Evolta:

For low-drain applications, the battery's ability to hold its charge is more important than a high capacity. For this purpose, Panasonic has designed its Evolta cells, which use low self-discharge technology to hold their charge. When left unused, they should maintain their charge for a year or more.

This makes them ideally suited to being used in devices such as remote controls, clocks and wireless keyboards and mice. That's not to say that they can't be used elsewhere, though. Although they have a rated capacity of 2,050mAh, our rapid-drain test measured the batteries at 2,096mAh. This is around 102 per cent of capacity and shows that these batteries can cope with high-drain devices.

While we'd rather have a higher capacity set for use with high-drain devices, the Evolta could be a useful backup to carry around with you, because you won't have to worry about it losing charge when it isn't being used.

The Panasonic Evolta's price impressed us less. Although it's not an extortionate sum of money, you can buy the Duracell Rechargeable StayCharged batteries, which have similar performance, for almost half the amount...

Help! What the heck is going on here? Are these batteries LSD or not?

To make matters worse, Panasonic.net also shows an entirely "new" (old?) AA battery, that I had never seen before:



Here is what they have to say about it:

Elite performance for demanding situations - Some specialist appliances may demand even more power, and for that, we offer a specialist solution. Our high-end Ni-MH2600 delivers very powerful current performance in a conveniently rechargeable format.

And, sure enough, when I looked around on the Japanese websites, I did manage to find the following Panasonic product line (listed under "other rechargeable batteries" but, I have no idea what they are good for, and what, if anything, is "special" about them:


(The D cell is rated at only 2800 mAh min., the C cell also 2800 mAh min., the AAs are 2400 mAh min, but 2600 mAh "typical," and the 8.4 v "9V" batteries gets only 170 mAh min.)

 

[EneloopFan]

After reading all the above posts, it seems like Panasonic is going to abandon the "Eneloop" brand. I know that Panasonic bought out Sanyo and so calling the rechargeable NiMH batteries Sanyo Eneloop is not possible but Panasonic Eneloop was fine. Will Panasonic abandon the Eneloop brand now and rebrand the rechargeable NiMH batteries as "Evolta" or "Panasonic Evolta" instead of Panasonic Eneloop?

 

[OpenGuy]

Imedions looks like a good buy. Though i never really heard of them. Same quality as the Eneloop?

I purchased both Imedions and original Eneloops at around the same time. The Imedions were solid performers that reliably kept their charge, but they had higher internal resistance than the Eneloops. I used the Imedions every day in my bike lights (with a pack of Eneloops as backups) until they eventually wore out. I feel the Eneloops were better, but otherwise I would have been happy with the Imedions compared to the rapid discharge junk that I had used previously. I replaced the worn out Imedions with Eneloops.

 

[ALW248]

Well, ALW248, it seems to me that these may be what you are looking for:



They are Panasonic Ni-MH batteries designed for use in audio equipment. Haven't found any mention of the number of recharge cycles so far, but capacities are 700 mAh for the AAA, and 2000 mAh for the AA.

So Panasonic knows that LSD does not sound good for audio applications?

Thanks a lot.

 

[RetroTechie]

That's interesting. Mine certainly aren't. But, if you have found that to be true, then Panasonic must have switched them all over to LSD (fairly recently?).

Recently bought some Panasonic Evolta's (HHR-3MVE) that came in packaging indicating they're low self discharge (otherwise I wouldn't have bought them ). Capacity-wise they're good cells, and my voltmeter confirms they hold their charge just sitting on the shelf. But strangely enough there's nothing indicating the same on the batteries themselves. Me thinks Rosoku is right, probably they moved to lsd cells @ some point, updated packaging, but left cell wrapping / marking unchanged. Mine have a "1212" date code (dec. 2012?) embossed btw.

I don't need the extra capacity. Actually I prefer the more robust 5000x new Eneloop Lite, if I want LSD. I don't want to worry about one cell going bad after half a year or so. The 500x life span makes that much more likely to happen than the 5000x of Eneloop Lite.

But if all consumer NiMH switch to LSD, then I do want the least LSD of Eneloop Pro.

The only thing you should care about, is which batteries will give you the best performance over the course of the years you'll use them.

If you recharge NiMH almost daily, keep spare cells charged religiously, then 'classic' NiMH's may work for you, and you could profit from a few extra mAh's. But say you go on 4 week holiday, forget about them, after ~2 weeks they run empty, the remainder of your holiday they sit empty and you may find they've lost significant capacity after that event. Which could give lsd NiMH's the edge after a single (or a few) of such incidents. You're sure you can avoid such mishaps over the course of years? Hmm.... :thinking:

For virtually all other use cases, low self discharge NiMH's (Eneloops in particular) are the go-to choice, and you're a thief of your own wallet if you choose otherwise. If you make heavy use of them, Eneloops Pro give you some extra mAh at the cost of cycle life. For very light use (wall clocks, remote controls, etc) Eneloop Lites offer faster recharging and perhaps a bit more robustness. Note that even for those uses, regular Eneloops will be fine.

Summarized: no reason to shy away from lsd NiMH's. Personally, I think non-lsd NiMH's have had their day - good riddance. :wave:

 

[RetroTechie]

I feel that in my audio amps, my Eneloop AA and AAA do not sound energetic as non-LSD NiMH. My theory is that the LSD also makes them slow in normal discharge, that when the device needs a pulse increase in current supply, there is a slight delay.

I know that in constant current discharge, Eneloop is capable of high current. Maybe someone can do a test on pulse discharge to look at the pulse shapes at different frequencies.

Oh man, you need to do a double-blind listening test. And if that would actually show a difference: improve/repair your amplifier's power supply section. Maybe there's a dried up capacitor in there somewhere?

 

[RetroTechie]

After reading all the above posts, it seems like Panasonic is going to abandon the "Eneloop" brand.

More like they'll replace "Panasonic Evolta" with "Panasonic Eneloop" for their NiMH's. With "Panasonic" being the most prominent on the package. "Eneloop" should have considerable marketing value @ this point, I doubt Panasonic would be stupid enough to flush that down the toilet.
:toilet:

 

[N54]

I recently bought eneloop packages from Costco that were labeled 1800X on the packaging....but the batteries had 2nd gen labels on them. I checked all of different packages and they were all the same. The batteries are dated 13/5

 

[ALW248]

So Panasonic knows that LSD does not sound good for audio applications?

I have now tried other batteries. For audio enjoyment:
NiZn > NiCd > NiMH > Eneloop

I am very glad that NiZn is available. Now I can forget about Eneloop, NiMH, and NiCd.

 

[Power Me Up]

I have now tried other batteries. For audio enjoyment:
NiZn > NiCd > NiMH > Eneloop

I am very glad that NiZn is available. Now I can forget about Eneloop, NiMH, and NiCd.

It's good to hear that you're happy with using NiZn cells. Since they do hold a significantly higher voltage than NiCd and NiMH cells, I don't doubt that they're working better for you. There are some serious caveats with NiZn cells, but as long as you're happy to live with them, then that's fine for you.

For the benefit of others reading this though, it should be noted that your conclusion of regular NiMH being better than Eneloops is only your opinion based on your non objective testing with just one audio device.

Eneloops will generally perform better (or at least no worse) than regular NiMH cells in most applications - the main exception of course being that high capacity cells will usually last longer per cycle (until their capacity degrades below the capacity of Eneloops)

 

[mojo-chan]

I have now tried other batteries. For audio enjoyment:
NiZn > NiCd > NiMH > Eneloop

Double blind tests say there is no noticeable difference in reasonable quality / well designed audio gear.