Date format - where is the logic?

RepProdigious

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I think that plays both ways. If someone were to ask me when something happened, I'd say the "29th of March, 2011" The way it's spoken is a product of the way it's written which is a product of the way it's spoken.

Also, if the order mess up was due to the way its being spoken, why don't Americans write 17 ('seventeen') ad 71 or 710 or something.....

However the metric system isn't all its hyped up to be either, most metric folk still use Celcius.... what's up with that? 40 celsius is not twice as hot as 20 celcius, i say GO KELVIN!?!?!
 

Norm

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Celsius is nice and simple, 0 Degrees is the freezing point of water, 100 Degrees is the boiling point of water at sea level. Couldn't be easier.
Norm
 

mvyrmnd

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The problem with Kelvin is the numbers are a bit wild. For example, a beautiful mild spring day would be 300 degrees!
 

march.brown

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What's with all these people quoting meters and millimeters as a measurement of length ? ... Meters are for measuring things such as (for example) A Voltmeter !

Otherwise Metric would be Meteric (which it isn't).

As far as metrication is concerned (not meterication) , everything is to the base ten ... In the UK before the metrication came in , we could all use the base 2 , 3 , 4 , 6 , 10 , 12 , 14 , 16 , 20 , 24 , 28 , 30 and many others ... We knew how many farthings , half-pennies , three-penny pieces and sixpences and florins and half crowns were in a pound ... The good old days when there were 240 pennies in a pound ... We had ounces and pounds and stones and gills and pints and quarts and gallons ... The school children could add up pounds , shillings and pence easily ... Nowadays they have to use calculators and they are only working in the base ten.

I still remember the days when you could get more than four "English" Gallons of petrol for a pound ... Nowadays , a "foreign" litre (not liter) costs way over a pound.

As for the date problem ... I always quote "Day , Month then year" ... As in a line of verse that says "Remember , remember the Fifth of November , Gunpowder , Treason and Plot" ... I can't remember the rest , but that's age related ... My age !

As for the time ... I don't see what's wrong with the Army method where we used the 24 hour clock ... Much easier with no need to add the AM or PM to it.

It's good to have a moan now and again
evilgrin07.gif

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beerwax

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shall i fire the big cannon ? yes lets.
we measure our worth in inches, you measure yours in millimetres.
cheers

the widspread adoption of the kelvin scale might instill us with a sense of perspective of this world.
 

flashflood

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You do realize this (and pretty much all your arguments) are due to you being used to your Imperial system, right?

We each like our system, but one of us likes our system because it's superior, while the other only thinks he likes it because he was brainwashed into a false consciousness by EU propaganda. It's a from of Stockholm Syndrome. And Stockholm is located where?

Ok, ok. On a more serious note, anyone know why the metric version of time didn't do away with seconds, minutes, and hours? The day is astronomically meaningful, but the others are not. Adopting the milliday (about 1.5 minutes) and microday (about 1/12 of a second) doesn't seem any less bad, or any more disruptive, than all the other unit changes.

You never know. The American stock exchanges went from fractional share prices to decimal about 3 kilodays ago. Anything is possible.
 

flashflood

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We knew how many farthings , half-pennies , three-penny pieces and sixpences and florins and half crowns were in a pound ... The good old days when there were 240 pennies in a pound ... We had ounces and pounds and stones and gills and pints and quarts and gallons ... The school children could add up pounds , shillings and pence easily ... Nowadays they have to use calculators and they are only working in the base ten.

This is where American ingenuity comes in. Instead of resorting to complex units, The Bernanke has devised a plan called Quantitative Easing. This will enable you to convert US dollars into any other currency by simply multiplying by zero.
 

Norm

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This is where American ingenuity comes in. Instead of resorting to complex units, The Bernanke has devised a plan called Quantitative Easing. This will enable you to convert US dollars into any other currency by simply multiplying by zero.

Current exchange rate
1.00 USD = 0.949397 AUD

1 USD = 0.949397 AUD 1 AUD = 1.05330 USD :)
 

flatline

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It's a context thing: we use the units and representations that make life easiest in whatever context we're in.

For example, YYYYMMDD time format makes string sort and chronological sort equivalent, but trying to communicate with another human in that format would require additional communication to explain the format, so we use whatever the local convention happens to be (MM-DD-YYYY or DD-MM-YYYY).

It would never occur to me to use anything but metric units when solving a physics or chemistry problem, but all the measuring cups and spoons in the kitchen are in cups, tablespoons, and teaspoons, so those are the units I use when following a recipe.

The only units that are clearly superior are the ones that somehow tie up meaningfully to a physical characteristic of what they're measuring. The only example of this that I can think of is the Kelvin scale whose zero is actually absolute zero which means that ratios of temperatures in Kelvin actually work, whereas ratios in any other temperature units need to be scaled by an offset in both the numerator and denominator to be mathematically correct.

Mathematical elegance trumps convention in my book.

--flatline
 

march.brown

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We each like our system, but one of us likes our system because it's superior, while the other only thinks he likes it because he was brainwashed into a false consciousness by EU propaganda. It's a form of Stockholm Syndrome. And Stockholm is located where?

Ok, ok. On a more serious note, anyone know why the metric version of time didn't do away with seconds, minutes, and hours? The day is astronomically meaningful, but the others are not. Adopting the milliday (about 1.5 minutes) and microday (about 1/12 of a second) doesn't seem any less bad, or any more disruptive, than all the other unit changes.

You never know. The American stock exchanges went from fractional share prices to decimal about 3 kilodays ago. Anything is possible.
When the company that I worked for brought in a Pay and Productivity Scheme (in the early seventies) , the work study boys used minutes and centi-minutes when they timed the benchmark jobs ... This was apparently to make life easier for them when they added up the individual times that made up that particular job ... Their stopwatches were in minutes and centi-minutes.

Unfortunately I had to write a load of job descriptions that had to be split into easily timed individual parts ... Some of the parts were only a few seconds (in this case centi-minutes) long ... It was a pain in the A### at the time , but the firm were able (in theory) to get rid of one third of the staff and still get all the work done ... The remaining staff were given a rise of an extra one third of their salary if the work was completed correctly and on time ... Unfortunately , the cash incentive to accept redundancy was accepted by the men who knew that they could get another job easily ... So we ended up with the less-able workers (and that's being polite) ... It wasn't good.
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Mike Painter

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Sad when the chronological order and metric including celsius are SOO much easier :(

I ask people how many fluid ounces to a gallon and 95% can't tell me :(

Ask how many inches there are in a mile and 100% will not know.

"How many gallons in a cubic foot of fresh water?", is also fun.
 

beerwax

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one foot is about as long as 1 of your feet, one yard is a good size step.

one pint is a good size drink and 1 gallon is a good size to carry.

one litre is just too big 2 drink (i can try) and a cubic metre far too big .

and then theres aesthetics. pound gallon mile foot inch are just nice words.

try translating 'an inch is as good as a mile ' or 'inching your way along' into metric.
 

flashflood

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and then theres aesthetics. pound gallon mile foot inch are just nice words.

Not only nice words, but nice words with interesting history.

That is what killed esperanto -- not that it was a bad language, and not that nobody already spoke it, but that it was sterile. It fixed everything that was wrong with existing languages (except, oddly, gender) but in the process lost the one thing that was good: culture. A language without culture isn't worth speaking.
 

Norm

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Iteresting.

1790 Thomas Jefferson proposed a decimal based measurement system for the USA. A subsequent vote in the USA congress to replace the current UK-based system by a metric system was lost by only one vote.

Norm
 

march.brown

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This might give some more information about the differences between proper measurements and the new-fangled American system.

The imperial gallon was originally defined as the volume of 10 avoirdupois pounds of water under specified conditions. The imperial gallon (4.54609 litres is 20% larger than the United States liquid gallon (3.785411784 L). The imperial bushel (36.36872 L) is 8 imperial gallons and is about 3% larger than the US bushel (35.23907016688 L).
The subdivision of the imperial gallon in British apothecaries' fluid measure differed in two important respects from the corresponding United States subdivision: the imperial gallon was divided into 160 fluid ounces, the United States gallon into 128 fluid ounces; and a "fluid scruple" is included (one third of a fluid dram).

These differences come from the various systems that were in use in Britain when the first colonies in North America were established. The American colonists adopted the English wine gallon of 231 cubic inches (3.78541178 litres), and used it for all fluid purposes. Obviously the New Americans liked Wine. The English of that period used this wine gallon, but they also had the ale gallon of 282 cubic inches (4.62115205 litres). In 1824, the British adopted the British imperial gallon, defined as the volume of 10 pounds of water at a temperature of 62 °F, weighed in air with brass weights, by calculation equivalent to about 277.42 cubic inches (4.5461 L)—much closer to the ale gallon than the wine gallon. So it seems that the British had a preference for ale rather than wine. At the same time, they redefined the bushel to be 8 gallons. I think that I am partially Americanised as I like both Ale and Wine in whatever measurements are available.

Even under the new imperial system, wine volumes continued to be measured in the old 231-cubic-inch wine gallons (3.78541178 litres) for tax purposes, and this practice continued until the late 1990s.

As noted above, in the imperial British system the units of dry measure are the same as those of liquid measure. In the United States these two are different: the gallon and its subdivisions are used in the measurement of liquids, the bushel and its subdivisions in the measurement of certain dry commodities. The US gallon (3.785411784 L) is divided into four liquid quarts (946.352946 mL each) and the US bushel (35.23907016688 L) into 32 dry quarts (1.101220942715 L) or 4 pecks (8.80976754172 L). All these units of volume for liquid measures are about 20% larger in the imperial system than in the US system. However, the British fluid ounce is only about 96% of the US fluid ounce because there are 40 fluid ounces in the British quart but only 32 fluid ounces in the US quart.

In the imperial system an avoirdupois ounce of water at 62 °F (16.67 °C) has a volume of one fluid ounce, because 10 pounds is equivalent to 160 avoirdupois ounces and 1 imperial gallon is equivalent to 4 imperial quarts, or 8 pints. This convenient fluid-ounce-to-avoirdupois-ounce relation does not exist in the US system because a US gallon of water at 62 °F weighs about 8 1⁄3 pounds, or 133 1⁄3 avoirdupois ounces, and the US gallon is equivalent to 128 fluid ounces.

In the apothecary system of liquid measure the British add a unit, the fluid scruple, equal to one third of a fluid dram between their minim and their fluid dram.
One noticeable comparison between the imperial system and the US system is between some Canadian and American beer bottles. Many Canadian brewers package beer in an 12-imperial-fluid-ounce bottles, which are 341 mL each. American brewers package their beer in 12-US-fluid-ounce bottle, which are 355 mL each. This results in the Canadian bottles being labelled as 11.5 fl.oz in US units when imported into the United States.

So there we have it ... The Americans might have bigger Prairies than the UK , but we've got bigger gallons.
evilgrin07.gif

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subwoofer

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I see this thread has digressed from the date format :) but it does introduce a nice analogy.

Other units do have their own logic unlike the American date. You would never say this is two feet, three inches and 6 yards long, it would be 6 yards, two feet and three inches, in order of significance (usually descending)!!!

As for units of measurement. The main factor is what you are used to. I have been finding in the last few years that when coaching new archery students (and archery really does hold onto imperial units) and telling them to some spacings as 1/4 inch or 1/8 inch, they look at me blankly, when I then say 6mm or 3 mm, their eyes light up.

The derivation and use of the SI units does make sense regardless of what you are used to as these are based on the real relationships and measurable and comparable physical properties. These standards can then easily be adopted and used by all.

Imperial measurements may be more friendly, I still use feet/inches for height, but have now moved to Kg for weight; altogether I use a mix but because I grew up with both (except for Fahrenheit as this makes no sense to use in day to day life as Celsius is based on water which is what affects us and the weather).
 

beerwax

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yes ive always preferred english gallons to yankee gallons. now i know why. but im thinking i might be liking scottish gallons even more.
 

Mike Painter

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yes ive always preferred english gallons to yankee gallons. now i know why. but im thinking i might be liking scottish gallons even more.

Which brings us back to "What weighs more a pound of feathers or a pound of gold?"

Back when I learned the correct answer to this it was hard to show the answer but today we have the Internet and know that feathers weigh more
 
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