Effects of EMP on LED Lights?

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StoneDog

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Re: Electromagnetic pulse

Silviron, I was thinking surplus ammo cans too! Need to make a trip to the local surplus store and pick up a dozen or so, should be handy for safeguarding any emergency equipment/supplies if (and when?) things go south.

Jon
 

donn

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Re: Electromagnetic pulse

Wow! thanks for the physics lessons everybody. Sure came to the right place for answers. Knowing nothing about electronics most of its gone right over my head but like I tell myself I'm here to lurk 'n' learn.

[ QUOTE ]
Minjin said:
Oh come on...everyone's dying to ask the one question that is burning on our minds: How do we make an EMP device? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Mark

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember an article in New Scientist magazine sometime in either 1999 or 2000 detailing how terrorists could build an 'E'-bomb that could fit in the back of a van. If you can track down the issue (soz I cant remember which one) you'll find it there.
Cheers
D.
 

Wim Hertog

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Re: Electromagnetic pulse

I know what's gonna be my next big project...
I already have a few (5) microwave generators and their power supplies (from old MW ovens)
I don't think it will be portable, but so what!
A friend of mine built a large Tesla coil, sucking 16 000 watts and producing 2m sparks and is it portable? NO! Fun? YES!
 

oldgrandpajack

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Anyone here know if incandescent bulbs have a better chance of surviving EMP than LED's? What about digitally regulated flashlights and EMP? With North Korea and Pakistan now having developed nuclear devices, I fear this may be an issue in the future. Some well funded terrorist could approach either nation with the intent of purchasing a low yield device that is small enough to sneak across our border. Last I heard, Russia didn't know where all of it's man portable devices were.
oldgrandpajack /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
 

wwglen

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Re: EMP VS. LED

The major thing that really causes a problem with EMD is long wires. The short leads and switches in a Flashlight would probably not cuse a problem.

Anything attached to power lines would be toast.

After an EMP strike Batteries would be hard to replace so the long run time on the small LED lights would be perfect.

If you are still concerned place a couple of small cheap LED lights in an Ammo Box. Something like a Rebel "AA", and a $7.00 Wal-Mart "AAA" headlamp would be great.

Humm... Now I know what to do with my Rebel.

Alss a small bag of various LEDs, resistors and some wire wrapping tools would allow you to build adaptors for your other lights.


wwglen
 

js

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Re: EMP VS. LED

oldgrandpajack,

I'm no expert in EMP and it's effects, but from what I remember from my Nuclear Physics text book and its very morbidly fascinating chapters on nuclear weapons, I would say that LEDs would definitely be affected as well as all other electronics based on silicone semiconductor technology (i.e. diodes, transistors, op amps, MOSFETs, etc). Also, given that vacuum tubes, which have filaments, are reported to survive an EMP I would say that unregulated incandescent lights will also survive, but I'm not sure.

Here's a bit of trivia for you. If you take the total equivalent mega-tonnage of TNT that the USA and former USSR possess in nuclear weapons, and divide by the number of people living on the planet, you get one cubic METER of TNT for each person. Each of us has an associated cubic meter of high explosives allotted to us from the plenitude of the nuclear arsenal.
 

js

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Re: EMP VS. LED

wwglen,

An ammo case will not protect interior components from an EMP from a nuclear weapon. It would have to be a whole lot thicker than that. Here's an example: we have some fast pulsed electro-magnets here at the accelerator, and just recently we found that stray fields from one of them were affecting the stored particle beam. The shielding copper near the beam pipe had to be 3/8 inch thick!. I can assure you that the electromagnetic discharge from a nuclear fission/fussion bomb will be many orders of magnitude greater than from our whimpy pulsed magnet.

Unless of course your ammo case is super conducting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif . Otherwise you must calculate a "skin depth" of the field into the metal conductor (due to its resistance, i.e. to it's not being a perfect conductor), and then you must make the metal thicker than that in order to effectively shield the interior from all fields. I'm guessing you'd have to make one thick ammo case.
 

mattheww50

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Re: EMP VS. LED

Actually a lot of things attached power lines are not likely to be bothered much at all. Anything with an transformer on the input side is probably safe. At the frequencies involved with EMP, the transformer is huge brick wall. This is demonstrated almost every day everywhere in the world. EMP is very much like induced voltages from a lightening strike. The instantanous power is huge, but the total energy is very small. A direct lightning strike is another matter, there the instataneous power is huge, and the energy is huge. Direct strikes do a lot of damage, induced voltages tend not to do much damage, even though the induced voltages in a power transmission line my be as much as 100Kv...


EMP tends to be a problem only with high density devices. You get very high instantaneous power, but relatively little energy. This is why for example, Vacuum tube devices are pretty much immune to EMP damage, they have large energy dissipation areas. My gut feel is that devices such as 1 watt + led's are not likely to be damaged. Just not enough energy delivered.

The bind is you take something like a transitor on an IC, which is a 1 micron feature for example. You hit it with an induced voltage of 50 volts, and the characterisitic line impedance which determines the EMP current is probably in the 50-70 ohm range, so you deliver say 50 volts at 1 amp for 1 micro second. Total delivered energey is 50 microjoules. Not much until you realize it was delivered to a device an area of about 1 billonth of a square inch. Energy density= 50,000 joules per square inch. Instant toast. Apply that same energy to MOSFET device, and the 50V part will simply punch a hole in the gate, also toast. Apply to a high power bipolar device, or for example a 1 watt LED, and it is still 50 microwatts, but say the feature size is now .1 inches, that is 50 microjoules spead of .01 square inches,
of that is 5 millijoules per square inch. You can raise that 50 volts to even 5000 volts (.5 joules, 1/2 watt for 1 second), and It isn't even going to get very warm. EMP is deadly against low power, and MOS devices, it just isn't a big hazard for higher power devices, it is more of a nuisance.

There is practical experience to back this up. In the early 1960's several tests were carried out in space, the largest was roughly 1.5 Megatons. It caused considerable havoc in the telphone system in Hawaii, and it caused power outages. the power outages were a result of the induced currents in the transmission network being sufficient to trip circuit breakers. (although it took a while for any to realize that the telephone and power network problems in the Hawaiian islands were EMP effects). There was damage to the telephone solid state gear, but at the time, much of it was still electromechanical, and that stuff, plus the older telephone (rotary dial), the older stuff escapced undamaged.

A similar induced current lead to one of the major blackouts in the 1970's in the eastern United States when a breaker in Canada tripped because of an geo magnetic storm(auroral) induced current added to the AC current in the transmission circuits.

The bottom line is that for the most part only low power, small feature devices, and insulated gate devices such as MOS technology, tend to be damaged by EMP. The larger featured, high power devices can usually dissipate the energy. The instantaneous power is very high, but the actualy energy delivered is very modest. So things like computer memories, 5mm LED's, CPU's etc are toast, your CRT is likely to escape damage.

Oh yes, the skin depth is pretty shallow. The formula for skin depth in copper is 6.6/f^.5 in cm. So at 60Hz it is .85 cm (hence copper wires up to about 1.7cm in diamter work well. Bigger then that, and you should use stranded conductors. at 1Kz it is .21 cm (about 1/100 th of an inch),
at 10 Mhz, 21 microns (about 1/10,000 th of an inch). Now you know why silver plating of high power vacuum tubes, and copper braid for a ground conductor is so attractive.

In short, an ammo box will provide more than adequate EMP protection. EMP sources are in the Mhz range, not Hz, not Khz. The accelerator issue is the wrong problem. The magnets in accelerators provide a uniform field, they are assential DC devices, so skin depth isn't meaningful, it is essentially a DC field.
 

js

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Re: EMP VS. LED

matheww50,

Thanks for the info. Sounds like you know what you're talking about. Except not all magnets in an accelerator are DC devices. The magnet I'm talking about is a PULSED magnet. The idea is to give the beam coming into the storage ring (the injected bunch) a magnetic kick, but one that dies off before the stored bunch of particles comes along. It is a fast two or three turn magnet, so the inductance is relatively low. It pulses on and then off and is carefully timed.

I would never have guessed it, but from what you say, our pulsed septum is MUCH more powerful than the EMP from a nuclear bomb. Imagine that.

So if all it takes is a metal box and a transformer on the input power to resist EMP, why was the military so worried about EMP? Isn't most electronic equipment in a metal box? Or at least, most of the MILITARY electronic equipment?
 

js

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Re: EMP VS. LED

matheww50,

BTW, I don't think that the skin depth formula you gave is valid for a pulse. I think that's only valid for sinusoidal AC power. Maybe I'm wrong. Also, how do you know the frequency of the EMP? Doesn't a non-sinusoidal wave have many frequencies, in fact, infinite frequencies. The fourier transform of a delta function is ALL frequencies weighted equally. Err. Or is it that all EM energy travels as a wave of a certain frequency. Geez, I am RUSTY. Thanks for any light you can shed on the subject.
 

James S

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Re: EMP VS. LED

wow, this is why I love this place, so much fascinating info! Thanks guys, now js I want to know more about your project too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

As far as boxes, yes they are great if they are sealed, however, most equipment is connected to other quipment via long wires. This is why they are concerned. If you could seal everything in a metal box it's OK, but if it's actually in use and connected it's toast as it will travel right through the wires and inside the box.
 

Double_A

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Re: EMP VS. LED

OK, forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't the inverse square law reduce power levels to the point where if you had induced currents sufficient to cause damage in a shielded container, your flashlights would be the last thing to worry about?

GregR

P.S. Please continue the discussion I find it very interesting!
 

Tomas

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Re: EMP VS. LED

Most electronic devices, even military, have leads other than power leads that penetrate the sheilding - antennas, sensor leads, output devices, etc.

This is often what causes the EMP protection engineers heartburn. Any lead that penetrates the shield is, uh, an antenna for EMP, and once conducted inside the shield it nicely toasts any toastable 'thingies' inside.

T_sig6.gif
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The_LED_Museum

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Re: EMP VS. LEDs and Incandescent bulbs.

From what I know, an EMP from a nuclear bomb detonated in the atmosphere can generate as much as 50,000 volts per meter (or was that per foot?) of wire. Nothing I'd want to screw with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
Metal-bodied flashlights like the Arc might be alright, but plastic-bodied flashlights will probably go bye bye. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
So if you have an eternaLight or a Lightwave 3000, it's a pretty good bet they'll be fried. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

Double_A

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Re: EMP VS. LED

Tomas-

Your statement is consistant with everything I've read. Protective measures I've heard have suggested nothing more need to be done than disconnect external conductive feed ins and secure the main electronic unit in a metal box. Of course that only works if you anticipate a nuke blast.

And of course, if you survived an initial blast and hooked up batteries, antennas etc. and they hit with a second or subsequent nukes you'd be screwed. oh well.

GregR
 

js

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Re: EMP VS. LED

OK, for all who are interested, I've done a little research on skin depth and EMP from a nuclear weapon.

Here is what my Nuclear Physics text says about an EMP from a nuclear bomb:

"The prompt gama rays and X rays released in the explosion interact with air molecules (through Compton scattering and ionization) to create a large current of negative electrons flowing outward from the point of the explosion. These electrons are accelerated by the Earth's magnetic field and give rise to a traveling electromagnetic wave in the form of a pulse. An explosion several hundred kilometers above the center of the United States would be within the line of sight of the entire United States and would expose the country to electric fields of the order of 10000 Volts per Meter for a 1 megaton blast. Such a pulse could be destructive of electrical power networks and communications grids."

Thus, the EMP pulse is not mono-chromatic, and, and as travelling EM packet, or pulse, will be composed of a large range of frequencies.

Second, the skin depth equation given by matheww50 assumes that the conductivity, sigma, is much much larger (and constant) than the product of the frequency of the (mono chromatic) EM wave and the permitivity of the material in which it is travelling, and also that the permitivity, epsilon, is also constant. These assumptions do not hold good in the case of an EMP. It's all rather complicated and I would need quite a bit more time to research it.

But the important point is that, as matheww50 suggests, skin depth is not really the way to get a handle on the effects of an EMP. As mentioned by others above, a metal box with no "antennas" sticking out of it should protect the interior electronics from damage. At least that's the impression I've gotten so far.

Yet, almost all electronics are connected together by wires, and these wires will transmit the EMP energy to sensitive elements and pfffoomp! they're toast. Optical cable. That's the answer!

So back to the original question: It would appear so far, that the verdict is that metal LED lights and incandescent lights and any lights in a metal box, will all be good to go after a nuclear war. Except those too close to ground zero. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And that's another thing. There's more to a nuclear detonation than the EMP. All sorts of radiation comes your way, and makes life hard to live, and probably does bad things to electronics. I know that here at Cornell's accelerator (CESR) ( www.lns.cornell.edu for those who are interested) we have plenty of electronics in the ring (where the beam goes round, which creates hard X rays) and we often have problems with electronics failing due to radiation damage, even with copper and lead shielding, and beyond that, neutron radiation from a nuclear bomb is really bad news, though mostly for living things. Any electronics that gets too much of this direct radiation will be toast, but I would think that it'd have to be within a kilometer of the detonation point. Just guessing, though.

Ah yes, all of that is so very cheering, isn't it?
 

Double_A

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Re: EMP VS. LED

Jim S-

Your remark on optical cables being immune to picking up an electrical charge, reminded me of a news story I read back during the first Desert Storm conflict. Apparently some people were surprised to find out Sadam had all of his underground facilities self sustaining and self contained (water, Air Purification, electrical generation etc. The only thing connecting them together were fiber optic cables immune to EMP.

Have a nice Day, a'll
GregR
 

mattheww50

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Re: EMP VS. LED

A magnet has a huge inductance, so even a pulsed magnet is unlikely to operate at a frequency of more than a few Khz, the same skin depth that limits the effect of the pulse, also limits the current you can supply to the magnet. You use very high voltages on the magnets to overcome the huge inductances, but you are still looking at rise times measured in tens of microseconds usually.

I had a customer in CTR8 at Los Alamos years ago. That was the magnetic confinement Nuclear fusion research, All of the connections from the experiements to the computer and control equipment were fiber optic, but the electronics was housed inside a room with about 1/16th inch copper walls, and carefully build sealing doors with huge conducting surfaces to the walls. The 1/16th of an inch was more than adequate to prevent the pulsed magnets used from causing any problems with the electronics via induced voltages.

As as for Radiation damage, most MOS devices are subject to radiation damage, however you will be 'cooked' long before most of those devices are serious damaged. They are a lot more radiation resistant then you are. Most are good for something on the of the 10 Kilorads. .5 Kilrads is roughly LD50 for humans.
 

js

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Re: EMP VS. LED

matheww50,

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you again, but our pulsed magnet septum is a single or double turn magnet with a turn on to turn off time of 50 micro seconds. I would guess that the rise time is as you suggest, around 10 mircoseconds or less. The inductance is NOT huge. At least compared to our quadrapoles and dipoles. As for the skin depth calculation, I did not do it, nor do I know how it was calculated, but I just talked to the person who did it, JUST NOW, and he said that the copper plate needed to be 1/4 inch thick. So I was wrong when I said 3/8, but not all that far off.

Some of the top scientists and engineers in THE WORLD work here at the lab (I'm not one of them, obviously) and I can assure you that they know how to calculate a skin depth. It is obviously more complicated than you realize, because stray fields were in fact disturbing the stored beams before the extra shielding, and are not now doing so after the extra shielding. Something in your understanding of the theory, or in your understanding of our situation (no doubt due to my poor understanding and communication of these things) has to be amiss.

But really, I suppose it's not all that important because you are right on about all the rest of it. Oh, and BTW, our gun filament and HV power supply (where the electrons start out their lives) are encased in just such a carefully sealed metal cage as you describe, with fiber optic connections going into it, and a ceramic piece to connect the vacuum chambers together, and the metal is on the order of 1/16 of an inch thick.

Please forgive me if I have been unnecessarily argumentative, but I'm not making up the whole thick copper shielding thing. It's for real.
 

js

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Re: EMP VS. LED

mattheww50,

OK. I just talked to one of the people. The septum turns on every 1/60 of a second with a 50 micro second width half sine wave. Thus, the frequency is nominally 10kHz with 60 Hz side bands. They wanted at least six skin depths of copper. Mike took me through a back of the envelope quick calculation, and six skin depths turns out to be about 1/8 of an inch, BUT he said that the person he was working with used a different formula. However that may be, the shielding needs to be fairly ridgid over the distance of the septum, and lacking any braces to stiffen it, they went with 1/4 inch thick copper. It's overkill on the skin depth front, he told me, but that wasn't the only consideration.

So you're right about the skin depth. I'll just go away now and sit quietly. A little knowledge is dangerous, I guess /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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