Everything you ever wanted to know: BADBOY, MADMAX Update

[dat2zip]

Geoff in Philly,

You must remove the white thingie. That requires tweeking the three tangs and pushing them down. Behind the white thingie is a wire clamp to keep it from falling out. That needs to be pulled out and there was some posts somewhere that mentioned the best way to get the wire clamp out. I think someone mentioned using a small push pin thru the top to push on the wire clip. From there you can reach in from the back end and pull the clip out with a long hook.

Once you get the white thingie out, drop in the sandwich from the rear followed by the two batteries.

The rest requires installation of the optics into the head assembly which is nearly identical to doing it for the minimag.

 

[Mr. Blue]

thanks ...email sent on an another issue...

 

[dat2zip]

Truths, myths and lies. What's the beef with run times of fully current regulated flashlight vs non regulated flashlight?

Or, What is Freekin run time difference in plain english?! *Woof* *Woof*

Let me see if I can describe this in a way we all can understand.

I'm going to create a hypothetical situation to help simplify the explanation.

Assume your batteries have a 1A/HR rating. (Remember assume here). Assume also that the batteries is a true ideal battery with a constant 3V all the time. This means you would have 3W/HR of power. Power is the key here.

So, lets now say that Badboy is true constant current over the full battery life, which is almost a true statement. For this example let's also say the LED in question is 3.3V and Badboy is set for exactly 400mA. This translates to a load power of 3.3V * 400mA = 1.32W. Assume the converter is 100% efficient so it doesn't come into the equation.

Since the load is constant we can divide the Power output by the Power of the batteries and can derive the run time. 3W input / 1.32W = 2.272 Hours.

Remember, Power drawn is constant. If you were to draw this on a graph paper with Power on the Y axis and time on the X axis you would get a rectange 1.32W high and 2.272 Hours long on the X axis.

So, Badboy is a rectangle block of power. Power drawn with fresh set of batteries is 1.32W and when the batteries are almost dead would still be 1.32W in this ideal situation.

Now, Let's look and any other non-regulated boost converter like Madmax. Input power is like before an ideal 3W/Hr of power.

Madmax draws current proportional to input voltage. The higher the input voltage the more current it draws. The lower the input voltage the less it draws. In this ideal situation Madmax would draw a constant power too just like Badboy and probably would draw more current. So, its load on a graph paper would also be a rectangle box with a higher Power on the vertical axis and a shorther distance on the X axis.

Now let's let the battery change with time but keep the basic assumption of 3W/Hr for this discussion. Badboy would still be a fixed load and the power graph would still be a rectangular box similar to before. Not much change here.

Madmax on the other hand changes dramatically. Now as the battery voltage changes so does the current the rgulator puts out. Let's plot this.

At Vin of 3V, let's say Madmax puts out 500mA. That's 3V * 0.5A = 1.5W. And let's say it changes linearly with input so at 1.5V input it would be 1/2 of 0.5 or 0.25A (1.5V * 0.25A = .375W).

Graphing this out we would get a right triangle shape. The area of the box or triangle should equal the input power. So the box height is 1.32W high and 2.272 Hours long. The area of the box should be 3W/H or L * W = Area = 1.32 * 2.272 = 3 (3 Watt/Hours).

The area of a right triangle equation is also equal to the input power and the equation is:
1/2 L * W. If W is the Y axis which would be 1.5W we can then solve for L which is the time. This solves out to 3W = 1/2 L * W = 4HRs. This would show that Madmax if it was truely linearly would run for 4Hrs under these condtions.

To summarize: Constant current output regulation = constant power drawn over the life of the battery.

Unregulated Voltage means current and power goes down over time as the battery gets weaker. Drawing less and less power means you will get more and more time.

I hope this helps explain the basic concepts of the difference between the two converters. Although simplified and doesn't take into account the converter power load variations, current variations and Madmax's non linear output current vs input voltage.

Remember, this is a very simplified statement just to help understand and to allow us to draw a mental picture of what is happening.

I hope this helps everyone understand a little better why Madmax would generate a longer battery run time than Badboy. *Woof* *Woof*

WayneY

 

[dat2zip]

That is correct.

 

[Mr. Blue]

but the badboy yellow is brighter longer at the sacrifice of initial brightness and ultimate run time, right?

 

[e=mc²]

So Wayne, it will be approx 6-8 weeks for additional MadMax's as well? Since purchasing one the first time around, I immediately fell in love with the unit and would like more to complete the rest of my mini mags and perhaps, I will break down and buy a Brinkmann 2AA Legend. I like the idear of a tail switch. I think it will stress the emitter less, as in the case of the minimag, the head twist action presses the optic down on the emitter board (I don't know if it actually touches the emitter) and I feel that it could eventually cause wear on either the optic, and/or the emitter. Do you know if the emitter is stressed in this twist on/off of the mag head assembly?

e-

 

[dat2zip]

e

Madmax are behind schedule. I goofed on the layout and that caused them to be delayed while I was having fun in Lost Wages. That and my CC bounced didn't help the situation. I expect the proto boards should be here tomorrow. I will then bless them with magic dust and if they don't go *poof* and disappear all is well. Depending on the Vendor I end up using for the Badboy modules, I will use the same for Madmax modules.

All I can say is that I feel a cool air coming in and Xmas is just around the corner. I suppose that you will want some to give away for xmas too??

Since I was able to advert or sidestep the first sunami, I don't feel so lucky this second time. I think a big one will hit me this time. So, I hope to be able to have continuous supply starting mid next month.

Right now there is no list being started. I anticipate that when a green flag is given, you can just hit that button on the paypal screen that says *send*.

That really should help since it was really difficult to wade through all the email with some being question, some requesting queue, some being real payments.

Since I haven't got any status back from the Vendors and I haven't got the proto Madmax boards, I would have to estimate 6-8 weeks and stay on the conservative time.

BTW: Future shipments will all include the captive C ring clamp which should make it more of a "real" flashlight and not have the module drop out when you take out the batteries. I should be able to post pictures in a couple of days what the new module looks like. It's really sweet.

The C clamp cannot be used on the existing modules unless one is willing to carve up the anode board. The anode connection is a large square pad and needs to be shaved down so that the C ring doesn't short to it. Not the board, just the square copper area needs to be reduced in size.

 

[Alan]

Dat2zip, that's exactly what I understand from Madmax and Badboy. This is also exactly the reason why geepondy's review confused me a lot. I'm just too lazy to test my badboy yellow and madmax.

Geepondy claimed that a used alkaline battery set in a badboy is dimmer than ArcLS. Using a fresh set of alkaline provides same brightness as (or even a little brighter than) ArcLS. Even worst, Geepondy also claimed that using lithium will make the badboy brighter

That's why I ask if the one Geepondy tested is really a bodboy or Madmax.

Your post has reaffirmed my understanding

By the way, please advise when you will take order for Badboy Green

Alan

 

[Doug Meister]

Wayne, (dat2zip) if that was a simplified statement, I dont want the complicated statement.

. But what Geoff in Philly said sums it all up:

>> but the badboy yellow is brighter longer at the sacrifice of initial brightness and ultimate run time, right? <<

And that makes me want a Madmax since it will suck the batts way down. I have too many half good batts for my croaking frog, and I can always buy more 2AA Mags. So is the price going to be the same or higher? What was that price anyway?
<font color=blue>--Ðøug

™</font>

 

[geepondy]

Originally posted by Alan:

Geepondy claimed that a used alkaline battery set in a badboy is dimmer than ArcLS. Using a fresh set of alkaline provides same brightness as (or even a little brighter than) ArcLS. Even worst, Geepondy also claimed that using lithium will make the badboy brighter

That's why I ask if the one Geepondy tested is really a bodboy or Madmax.
Alan

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The differences in brightness between the various sets of batteries I used was fairly miniscule and by eyesight only. Also the luxeon in my LS1 is of the green corona type although the corona isn't horrible while the badboy has a more pure white/slightly violet beam. They are almost two different beasts and hard to compare brightness wise between the two unless there is a sizeable difference. With the green corona, I think it sometimes accentuates the white hotspot and makes it appear brighter then it really is.

Please take my initial comments as quick first impression only and very unscientific. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have posted anything without more conclusive results. The one thing I did definitely notice was that when the head of the minimag containing the badboy got quite hot, the beam dimmed somewhat. Once allowed to cool, the beam was back to normal. I have since used the badboy intermittently several times and the beam appears to still be consistent.

If I can ever figure out how to take a decent beamshot with my camera (Nikon CP990), I'll try to take some comparison photos between the two lights but in my attempts so far, the camera doesn't focus right so the beams are blurry.

 

[Alan]

Geepondy, thanks for the clarification.

Alan

 

[geepondy]

OK, I now know the reason behind the discrepancies on the beam intensity using different batteries as I had originally posted. Tonight I was doing extensive experiments using different battery combinations when I found out why.

The badboy is housed in a minimag which we all know is an adjustable light. When you twist the head of the flashlight to activate the light, the point of when it first comes on is when the badboy appears to be at it's most intense. Turning the head further by just a slight degree, softens the beam and focus and makes it appear to be less bright. Indeed because the head is loose, just moving the flashlight around changes the focus and beam intensity although this certainly wouldn't be noticeable in real life applications. When I made my first initial observations, I didn't pay attention to just how far I had turned the head once the light was activated so I believe I turned it further beyond the point of activation when making my observations that the beam appeared to be dimmer with the first set of batteries then I did with subsequential battery changes.

So tonight I did further beam tests using a fresh set of alkalines, a fresh set of lithiums and rechargeable NIMH's so weak that when in the digital camera, the battery level said low which I know from experience means ready to give up the ghost. The beam intensity appeared to be very similar with all three sets of batteries. When I put the used NIMH's in the Arc LS, it was somewhat dimmer although not by a real lot, then the Arc with fresh alkalines.

So in conclusion, my opinion is that it's a shame such a great regulator has reside in such a comparatively poor housing. I guess that is why we will have to buy future Arc LS's to see the best of both situations.

 

[Alan]

Geepondy, thanks for going through all the trouble to dig out the discrpancies. I really got it now.

I wish ArcLS won't change Badboy circuit that much.

Alan

 

[across the pond]

Originally posted by dat2zip:
Truths, myths and lies. What's the beef with run times of fully current regulated flashlight vs non regulated flashlight?

<snip>

So, Badboy is a rectangle block of power. Power drawn with fresh set of batteries is 1.32W and when the batteries are almost dead would still be 1.32W in this ideal situation.

<snip>

Madmax on the other hand changes dramatically. Now as the battery voltage changes so does the current the rgulator puts out.

<snip>

WayneY

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, snipping done, I have a query...

If the badboy is the block output and madmax is the triangle output, I'm confused as to why the graph in the link below seems to show the madmax as having the more level light output overtime.

 

[across the pond]

Damn, forgot the link. It's:

http://home.attbi.com/~theledguy/hobby/images/graph_red_mini_comparison.gif

 

[dat2zip]

across the pond,

You are correct in noticing that the graphs I posted long time ago may look misleading.

The graph that is posted has Madmax actually adjusted to regulated a fixed voltage of apporximately 3.4V which it did very efficiently. As such, the runtimes show nearly a flat graph since the Madmax is voltage regulating and the Badboy is current regulating. This is not what was shipped to folks. The units currently being shipped are running wide open and would represent the triangular waveform more than what is shown on the web site graph. It got too complicated shipping Madmax with the trim pot and trying to get each Madmax adjusted since the adjustment procedure is not straightforward.

Remember too, that if the battery voltage is constant, both would have nearly identical rectangular waveforms, so, the actual batteries used will affect the performance as well. In this particular case NiMH batteries were used and the voltage deviation from full charge to depleted is very small. This graph would differ tremendously from battery to battery. What you see here is that if both Badboy and Madmax are regulating and putting out constant Voltage/current that the efficiency of Madmax genrates a little longer run time.

If you look at the second graph you can see that different batteries have significantly different run times and some have a nearly straight line down to zero.

second runtime graph

There are so many factors that influence run times and light output that I intentionally gave the simplfied version as stated before to make a simplified apple to apple comparison. If we apply battery technology, battery manufacturer, efficiency and others into the equation, the expalnation would be so complicated that even I would not be able to explain it.

The net result is: Both are pretty darn good. Which one do I like. I like both, for different reasons.

I like Madmax since it runs down to nealy zero and as such gives you a direct 1:1 indication how low the batteries are by how little light it puts out. My bedside minimag Madmax is still going with voltage on the alkaline batteries reading open circuit 0.8V. Still plenty of light for badside light.

I love Badboy for its consistant reliable constant light for my EDC flashlight. That and the fact I have now switched to NIMH batteries will always be fully charged and ready to give me 90+ minutes of constant light. Using Alkaline or non rechargeables in Badboy will give you no warning before its light output drops like a rock.

The shining star in all this is the Luxeon LED, not the converters. No matter what type of light you have with a Luxeon, the light output is totally impressive even if off color and puke green. When you drive 1W or approximatly 15-18lm of light into a 20 degree beam, you get an impressive little hand held flashlight.

 

[camisdad]

Hi Wayne-

many thanks for the BadBoy. It was received sound, and is now living inside a brand new Minimag.

I was originally thinking of installing it into a Brinkmann legend (no crushing) but when time came I was a little too chicken to simply push the lense back, although it does look like it is just press-fitted there. There was a time where you might have had some instructions for a Brinkmann too - are they still available somewhere?

Thanks again - best, Michel

 

[dat2zip]

OK, Here is an update and I need to query CPF for the next step. I've just plunked out major $$$ for volume production and the target is 3-6 weeks out from today for 1st article one unit. After that I have a large order of:

Badboy 400mA (banana, was Yel)
Badboy 500mA (Apple or was Grn)
Madmax adjustable with trim pot.
(It will come as a full module, adjustment of the trim pot is not readily accessible in this new configuration)

I will be looking to place the emitter order from Future in a couple of days and need to know or get a feel for what type of emitter(s) should I get. This may or may not affect what I order and it all depends on whether I can get either one of these from Future.

The options are (all for the 1st lot run)
1)
Get all loaded with 1W white batwing LXHL-BW01

2)
Get all loaded with 1W White Lambertian (LXHL-PW01)

3)
50% Batwing, 50% Lambertian

Please think about this and vote for option 1,2,3.

Also, note that I've have ordered enough raw boards for a second run and that the MFG process will be in place to place future orders on demand.

These better sell or I'm out big time $$$.

The sales of this module will help offset future develpment and will influence future converters in the pipeline. Specifically, the Badboy_750 and a future Step down converter or two that I'm currently working on.

Let me just express my opinion here. Me personally, I would go with the BX01 batwing gooped emitter. The reason for this is the gooped emitter cast a nice round beam through the optics. The HD or lambertian with IOS??? or phospher on die method casts the image of the die through the optics making a retangular shape beam. Since it's impossible to hold the optics at its optimum centered offset position you will see the rectangular shape beam which I personally don't like at all. This is true for all colored LEDs since the optics projects the die image out perfectly.

Q:Can I send you my emitter to be loaded on a module before you send it to me?

A: No, the emitters will be loaded at the manufacturing site and when I receive them will be already soldered on.

Q: When will you start selling them?

A: As soon as I get them I will post here on CPF that they are available and will start a buy/sell topic that you can find the pertinent detail.

Q: What will the cost be for each?

A: At this time the cost will remain the same. Approx. $30 for Madmax, $35 for Badboy banana and $40 for Badboy apple.

Q: Why are you using fruit instead of colors to designate the different output current options for Badboy?

A: Color options were confusing some CPF members to think that the light output would be yellow or green. All modules are with a white LED and I do not have any plans on selling the colored emitter version at this time.

Q: When will they be available?

A: Sheez, see question above for answer...

Q: How many can I order at one time?

A: There will be no restrictions on how many you can order at one time. I will take orders up to quantities of 20, past that I will question your sanity!

Q: Will these be offered with the new 5W?

A: No, this will not work at all for the 5W.

Q: Can I use NICD, NIMH, and L91 batteries?

A: Yes, Yes, and Yes.

Q: Which one is the brightest?

A: Stare into anyone of them will blind you. Take your pick! Badboy green and Madmax are very comprable. LED variations from batch to batch will have significant effect on the light output.

Q: Will there be any puke greenies?

A: I have no control over the LEDs I get from Future and so they all might be nice LEDs with a blue tinge or be all puke dark green. It's a crap shot for sure.

Q: When can I get them?

A: Dang, didn't I already answer that more than once...

Q: Will you be offering the [Cartman] Kick A** dude[/Carman] Hand Scorcher (HS) grape or violet option?

A: No, the 666mA is too much power and heat to be a reliable solution for the 2AA flashlight mod. Have I done one? Y, I have, and I feel it to be unsafe without special precations. I have made a few adjustable Badboys called Badboy_750 and I have yet to decide if I will be making any more of these.

Q: Can I jsut get the converter board only since I already have the emitter and want to Do it myself? DIY kit?

A: Arggghhh, I understand, but, the module production needs to get kick started. The extra boards I have ordered could be made as individual converter boards and not into full module assemblies.

Q: How long are you going to sell these modules for?

A: My scope right now is not a business, so I will make the decision on a run by run basis and will absolutely discontinue in less than 6 mo's. (Watch me eat this statement later...)

Q: How can I help?

A: Stop quivering your finger long enough to hit that paypal button multiple times....

Q: Will I be able to buy these from online retail stores or somewhere else?

A: Heck no! Liability and more liability.

Q: Where do you live?

A: Forget it... I'm not answering that question...

I think I've hedged off most of the questions that might arise. If you have any aditional questions, please post your questions here. No question is too stupid, too small or should not be asked.

WayneY

 

[InTheDark]

This may be a dumb and annoying question, but how come you don't just name all your circuits with the driving current, i.e. Badboy_400, Badboy_500, instead of colors or fruit? Might cause a little less confusion for slow people like myself.

Also, did you recieve my e-mail about the Badboy_750 (Which, if I follow everything, runs at 666 mA and is .675 inches in diameter?)

oh, and I guess I would vote for option #1, the 1 watt batwing. The lambertian HD don't seem to work very well with any of the optics without a lot of fiddling to get it set just right.

If you had an option #4, just the converter boards, that would have been my first choice.

 

[sflate]

Count me in for #1 (1W Batwing)

Since I'm assuming you epoxy the emitter on with Arctic Silver or similar epoxy, any chance of instead using the Arctic Silver Paste? That way you can still mass produce them and the enduser COULD un-solder and change emitter if desired.

Also, when will they be ready to order? (just kidding)