Feeler: Driver Circuit for max LED Power from Hub Dynamo

rideatnight

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
15
I put the Zener in there because I was under the impression that I could overvolt the LEDs at high speeds (40+ kmph). The notchy feeling I get is definately related to the electronics, because it goes away when I turn off the light. I'm tempted to try to remove the Zener, and see if that isn't the cause, but I'm worried about burning out my LEDs when going over 50 Kmph. It's only a 1W 7.5V zener, figuring that it was last ditch protection for the crees keeping the voltage drop across each limited to 3.75V. If the current stays around 500ma, then the LED voltages should never reach 3.75V.
 

Calina

Enlightened
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
955
Location
Longueuil, Québec
For a stand light I'd prefer super caps to batteries.
Contrary to batteries, they will charge well in sub zero temperature. There is no worries to overcharge them or kill them by running them too low which is always a problem with accumulators and they will live much longer in any weather.

I guess a current of about 100 (125) milli amps would be enough and would provide about 35 to 45 lm of light with a Q5. Three minutes of light seems reasonable (5 even better) but I haven't calculated what cap size would be needed for that.

In city traffic with constant stop and go, if too much current is required, it is possible that the stand light would be useless in only a few seconds. On country roads it is less of a necessity but still nice to have as a safety feature. Blinking? I don't know; sometimes it is more annoying than useful.

As for the rear light, I use a blinky on 2 AAAs, I fell safe and they last at least a whole season.
 
Last edited:

PhxCycler

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
26
Can you tell me why??

do you have a 1" stem or a NON-ahead type headset??

K
Hi Ktronik,

I have a 1 1/8 in. threadless steerer on 3 different road bikes. In every case the tube is used as the clamping mechanism for the stem. There is a set bolt inside the steerer into which the locking cap screws. None of this is removable. I also have a mtn bke and the steerer is wide open as you describe. I've never seen a road bike with an open steer tube.

That said, the size of the board really doesn't matter to me. I think the size specified is good. That way it will fit inside a steerer when available. I'll just make the eletronics fit somewhere (like a small seat bag attached to the stem :D).

-Mike
 

thomas.hood

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Aug 1, 2007
Messages
12
I commute year-in-year-out by bike, and as evidenced by my posting posting here take an interest in lights people use. As it's been lights-on commuting for the past few weeks I've been taking an interest in what people in London use.

In the garage of the building in which I work there are ~220 bikes (big company...) of which there are precisely 2 dynamo powered bikes. Owned by a Swiss and a Dutch guy respectively.

The only other place I have seen dynamos are are SON hubs which are exclusively the preserve of the Audax bunch: accordingly at least 80% of which are steel bikes... in other words 1" steerers.

Any other UK riders concur?

Tom

(I must declare an interest having 3 bikes in my family that would benefit from this set-up, all with 1" steerers)
 

thomas.hood

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Aug 1, 2007
Messages
12
Hi Ktronik,
removable. I also have a mtn bke and the steerer is wide open as you describe. I've never seen a road bike with an open steer tube.
-Mike

I've never seen a mtn bike with the steerer-tube closed. We are talking about the bottom end, right?

Almost all road bikes with plastic-carbon-fibre forks are closed at the bottom, but many have drain hole which would be sufficient to get wires into (assuming the top-cap anchor is removable).

1-1/8" Plastic-carbon-fibre forks have thick steerer tubes -- what is the ID of one? Is it so different to a 1"

I've seen very few steel forks that are closed at the bottom.


Tom

Addendum:
I've just measured the ID of a 1"-steel steertube and it's marginally _larger_ than the ID of the 1-1/8" steer tube on my MTB! (~22.4mm)
 

Martin

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
584
Location
Germany
I put the Zener in there because I was under the impression that I could overvolt the LEDs at high speeds (40+ kmph).
LEDs are never "overvolted" in forward direction, their critical parameter is the current and from a dynamo this would stay around 500mA with a conservative tuning capacitor or no tuning capacitor. If you think the LEDs need protection, add a fuse in series with the circuit.

The notchy feeling I get is definately related to the electronics, because it goes away when I turn off the light. I'm tempted to try to remove the Zener, and see if that isn't the cause, but I'm worried about burning out my LEDs when going over 50 Kmph. It's only a 1W 7.5V zener, figuring that it was last ditch protection for the crees keeping the voltage drop across each limited to 3.75V. If the current stays around 500ma, then the LED voltages should never reach 3.75V.
Shunt the tuning capacitor with a wire and see if the notchyness is reduced.
 

rideatnight

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
15
Thanks, I'll give that a shot. I appreciate having someone to bounce this off of.
 

ktronik

Enlightened
Joined
Oct 12, 2003
Messages
779
Location
Australia
Hi Mike,

We have the same system...so you got no probs... :)

How it done like this...

1: replace the 'star nut' (yes removable) with a 'freestyle' star nut in the same size... this star nut is ment for a cable to pass through the fork to the front brake... plug the bottom & you are sealed tight...

if you run a carbon fork then best to keep the carbon type star nut...won't work on carbon systems, so if you runnig a carbon fork you won't want to heavy up the bike anyway...

so all good... :thumbsup:

K
 

PhxCycler

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
26
Hi Mike,
We have the same system...so you got no probs... :)
How it done like this...

1: replace the 'star nut' (yes removable) with a 'freestyle' star nut in the same size... this star nut is ment for a cable to pass through the fork to the front brake... plug the bottom & you are sealed tight...
K
K,

Not quite the same systems. My star nuts are not removable. They are fixed inside the tube. Doesn't matter tho, I'll put the electronics elsewhere.

-Mike
 

ktronik

Enlightened
Joined
Oct 12, 2003
Messages
779
Location
Australia
K,

Not quite the same systems. My star nuts are not removable. They are fixed inside the tube. Doesn't matter tho, I'll put the electronics elsewhere.

-Mike

Mike, just for the record, all star nuts are removable, unless they are 'welded' in...BMX only...

K
 

Martin

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
584
Location
Germany
Today I visited my local bike store for a 1.125" steerer tube as a physical sample, to make sure my electronics will really fit inside. I was lucky, right at the top of the scrap metal container there was a 1.125" rigid steel fork that I could carry off for free.
Hammered the star nut all the way thru the tube and out the bottom, now I'm mechanically set.

For the electronics, I will go through-hole with large solder pads for external connections.
First version will be w/o standlight.
Second version will be with stand light using linear regulation and that would best fit a LiIon reservoir. I may put an optional strobe feature which shouldn't need more than 2 transistors.
Third version will use switchmode charger for the reservoir and switchmode driver for the standlight, makes sense for both Supercap and LiIon. At this point there will be at least 3 ICs on the board, 2 of these will likely be available in SMT only, so this would become an SMT project. The components for the third version will be more difficult to find and more tricky to put on the board.

Why not go for the 3rd version right away ?
Because a) Given the time I plan to spend on this every week, it would take very long to complete and b) Feedback from the 1st version improves a later one.
 

Martin

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
584
Location
Germany
I read you, Calina. I'm on it. Library and schematic mostly done.
Doing this in Eagle and stay withing the limits of the free version, so everyone can download the design tool and play with the design files.
Nothing new in the schematic below, just looks nicer.
The overvoltage crowbar isn't in yet, it needs some more thinking. PSPICE revealed that I'm getting beyond the SOA of my components by trying to avoid a hard-to-find SCR or a large power transistor. It looks like the final crowbar will be using up to ten components, but all of them standard parts.
Stay tuned.
DualPowerAutoSch.gif
 

Eddy

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Oct 15, 2007
Messages
13
Location
Rockwall, Texas
Thanks to everyone for working together here. This cooperative site is amazing!

(OT) As an introduction I have the Shimano hub, purchased about a year ago with the idea that LEDs will soon rock for use with hub dynamos. I ride the bike about 5 miles a day with a Border Collie running on leash along side. Rides are morning and evening before and after dark... This stuff is exactly what I am looking for. Back to the topic at hand.

Road bikes have long stems. Will the PWB fit in there? (100mm)?

Surface mount is not that bad if you have solder wick and solder first one end and then the other. Component un-availability can obsolete a pwb layout... Dual footprints can solve this, if there is space.

Please put access pads on at important places for (prototyping) options off the first pwb. It is diffcult to know what the future holds.

Thanks again,

Eddy
 

Martin

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
584
Location
Germany
EDIT: ABOVE SCHEMATIC UPDATED with the overvoltage crowbar. Using the standard circuit with an SCR (cost around $1, package TO220), found no real alternative.
I will put this into the PCB machine now.


Welcome to CPF, Eddy !
If you want something right now, take a look at the thread over there.
The PCB discussed in this thread here is just being made and not yet available.

Once it is, the PCB will be 1" wide and as long as needed by the components. Electrolytics will be off the PCB to keep it small and independent of the capacitor size (which depends on dynamo type and user preference).
I will place the components very closely (violate keep-outs) because this project will be hand-built, no automatic insertion machine to care for.

Surface mount is not meant to be done at home. The chip components require a reflow oven, following a well-defined temperature profile. Anything else potentially cracks capacitors, resistors and ferrite beads. I seen it before, more than once, over 1%.
So by the time I make this SMT, either a nice factory owner from Shenzhen has offered to help or SMT will be restricted to transistors, ICs, diodes, wire-wound inductors, tantalum caps, LEDs.
Component availability is something else to be aware of. People can't easily buy SMT parts at typical hobby shops so they may need to place multiple orders with distributors that have a high MOQ and shipping charge.

And yes, I will include multi-footprints where applicable.

I like the idea of the Collie, should give you some extra pull and fully compensate for the dynamo. What lights are on the Collie ?
 
Last edited:

Eddy

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Oct 15, 2007
Messages
13
Location
Rockwall, Texas
The collie is on the grass. We have wide streets with reflective markers indicating a 1.8 meter wide pedestrian/golf cart/ stroller/bike lane on both sides. Since she is a pedestrian, we go against traffic. I only need a headlight, although a stand function would be nice...

Thoughts questions from some folks I shared this collective work with today. I did not see the answer from the "Please use FETs instead of diodes?" question. In the full bridge version this appears to save watts and drive voltage for the LEDs. If you use N-channels and just do the bottom side of the bridge... could not the gate drive signal come right off the opposing dyno lead? and since the body diodes will get the caps charged, could that be used to eliminate any slow turn on concerns?

This 1.5V FET looks good... at first blush
http://www.vishay.com/docs/73138/73138.pdf
http://www.powermanagementdesignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?printableArticle=true&articleId=171201882
Edit: here are more choices http://www.vishay.com/mosfets/trenchfet/v-ds-lteq-neg20-v/
Please pardon that I have not yet caught up to the body of work here - these parts did not exist when I was first introduced to electronics!


It is a P-channel (oops) make that P-Channels and the top side of the bridge!
(edit:here is an N channel that turns on at 1.8V (r=.04 ohms). These parts kind of mess up my preconcieved notions...
http://www.vishay.com/docs/72234/72234.pdf

I understand every volt/watt you get out of the bridge goes straight to the illuminating LEDs? Could replacing one side of the diode bridge with FETs net 15% more LED power???

Also the graphs with more LEDs look very appealing. Is there a component in the control circuitry limiting you to the 3 shown,... if the crowbar is included?

I think you have answered these questions but I could not find the answers...

A PWB requires a MOQ... If it comes with the three, four or so most difficult to obtain parts as well (a kit of sorts), this becomes a project a Boy Scout could do. There is a parental incentive there...

Are stand light nodes going to be accessible so a person can make that circuitry in scuplture and add it if desired? (I may have missed this).

Thank you all again,

Eddy
 
Last edited:

Calina

Enlightened
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
955
Location
Longueuil, Québec
I read you, Calina. I'm on it. Library and schematic mostly done.
Doing this in Eagle and stay withing the limits of the free version, so everyone can download the design tool and play with the design files.
Nothing new in the schematic below, just looks nicer.
The overvoltage crowbar isn't in yet, it needs some more thinking. PSPICE revealed that I'm getting beyond the SOA of my components by trying to avoid a hard-to-find SCR or a large power transistor. It looks like the final crowbar will be using up to ten components, but all of them standard parts.
Stay tuned.


Hi Martin,


The bump was not a complaint in any way, it was not intended for you. I would consider that as rude behavior on my part since you are the one doing all the hard work while we're standing in line so to speak. I just wanted to bring the thread back up for visibility to generate more traffic and hopefully some comments.

By the way, what is a crowbar?


J-P
 
Last edited:
Top