Sigman
* The Arctic Moderator *
Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t
...thanks for bringing this back "on track" folks!
...thanks for bringing this back "on track" folks!
Four cavers die in UT - only one light among them
- Thread starter LowWorm
- Start date
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James S
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t
cave diving or going through a sump or whatever is the single most dangerous thing you can do in a cave or mine or whatever it was. As others have noted once you stir up the silt you can't see at all. The only option is to wait for it to settle which can take hours or more.
The only option for 99.9% of us would be to never put your head under water in a cave unless your guide is there and clips a safety line to you.
I hope this will result in bars being installed across the entrance to whatever this is so that no others have to suffer the same fate. The fact that this has been around and known for so long without any such thing is doubly tragic.
cave diving or going through a sump or whatever is the single most dangerous thing you can do in a cave or mine or whatever it was. As others have noted once you stir up the silt you can't see at all. The only option is to wait for it to settle which can take hours or more.
The only option for 99.9% of us would be to never put your head under water in a cave unless your guide is there and clips a safety line to you.
I hope this will result in bars being installed across the entrance to whatever this is so that no others have to suffer the same fate. The fact that this has been around and known for so long without any such thing is doubly tragic.
David_Campen
Enlightened
Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t
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I hope this will result in bars being installed across the entrance to whatever this is so that no others have to suffer the same fate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, since we have strayed off topic again. I find this type of comment annoying. Why do you take this paternalistic stance? If others want to risk their lives attempting to free dive a sump they should be permitted to do so.
[ QUOTE ]
I hope this will result in bars being installed across the entrance to whatever this is so that no others have to suffer the same fate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, since we have strayed off topic again. I find this type of comment annoying. Why do you take this paternalistic stance? If others want to risk their lives attempting to free dive a sump they should be permitted to do so.
LowWorm
Enlightened
Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t
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David_Campen said:
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I don't know if flashlights would have saved their lives (God bless them and their families), but I was wondering what kind of lights would be recommended for this kind of excursion?
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OK, back on topic. It is quite possible that no lights would have saved them. What they were doing is called "sump diving" and it is very hazardous even for people who are highly trained. A common event in sump diving is that fine sediment on the bottom is stirred into the water resulting in zero visibility and disorienting the diver to the point that he can't even tell up from down, the diver then needs to follow the guidline that he has laid to find the way out. Also sump divers use some sort of SCUBA, they don't attempt to free dive the sump.
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Thank you, this answers my question...although I can't imagine entering into any dark mountain crevice without a light, it's good to know that there are some situations (read: sump) in which even the best lights won't cut it.
The follow-up reports on the accident said that the first person returning through the sump most likely blocked the way for the others, who were following closely. So the density/darkness of the water, combined with the crowding of the bodies and the close confines of the area would mean that even the pullrope in the sump could not be counted on to save anyone. And I see now that using a flashlight as a life-saving tool wouldn't have been very easy or even possible under the circumstances.
[ QUOTE ]
David_Campen said:
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if flashlights would have saved their lives (God bless them and their families), but I was wondering what kind of lights would be recommended for this kind of excursion?
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, back on topic. It is quite possible that no lights would have saved them. What they were doing is called "sump diving" and it is very hazardous even for people who are highly trained. A common event in sump diving is that fine sediment on the bottom is stirred into the water resulting in zero visibility and disorienting the diver to the point that he can't even tell up from down, the diver then needs to follow the guidline that he has laid to find the way out. Also sump divers use some sort of SCUBA, they don't attempt to free dive the sump.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you, this answers my question...although I can't imagine entering into any dark mountain crevice without a light, it's good to know that there are some situations (read: sump) in which even the best lights won't cut it.
The follow-up reports on the accident said that the first person returning through the sump most likely blocked the way for the others, who were following closely. So the density/darkness of the water, combined with the crowding of the bodies and the close confines of the area would mean that even the pullrope in the sump could not be counted on to save anyone. And I see now that using a flashlight as a life-saving tool wouldn't have been very easy or even possible under the circumstances.
PeLu
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t
[ QUOTE ]
David_Campen said:
[ QUOTE ]
I hope this will result in bars being installed across the entrance to whatever this is so that no others have to suffer the same fate.
[/ QUOTE ]
I find this type of comment annoying.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree absolutely. Exactly that thinking of closing everything which an armchair politican thinks is dangerous causes sometimes accidents.
Besides that: It is not necessary to carry millions of torches/flashlights .-)
I prefer 2 relyable ones. And not necessarly very bright ones. I spent many, many hours in caves with usually some 2-4lm (old ActionLight I on medium setting).
(In the former millenium I used to use some 500lm).
Since using the AL1 I never ever needed a backup light and I have at least 5 weeks a year dedicated to caving and several more weekend trips.
And further, going through a shallow and short sump without any SCUBA gear is quite common practice and nothing special.
But you need a rope to follow (not only a guideline) unless the siphon is only half a meter long.
But I have even seen people in this short distance to loose direction.
A torch/flashlight (hey on topic again!) may help if the buddies show you the way with it.
In a report from the oldest cave diving attempts in Great Britain, one diver writes that he stirred up the silt so fast that he thought that his light's bulb had blown.....
They main reason for accidents like this one is panic. One person might have had the feeling that he/she can not do it and turned around and everything turned into a mass.
I know a case where two (experinced) cavers met each other in the middle of a maybe 3-4m long sump. They had some misunderstanding about rope signals.
Due to their experience they stayed calm and nothing bad happened, actually the had a lot of fun afterwards about that occasion.
A novice might panic and let the rope go.
Back to bright lights: In some occasions they might blind you, so more is not always better.
[ QUOTE ]
David_Campen said:
[ QUOTE ]
I hope this will result in bars being installed across the entrance to whatever this is so that no others have to suffer the same fate.
[/ QUOTE ]
I find this type of comment annoying.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree absolutely. Exactly that thinking of closing everything which an armchair politican thinks is dangerous causes sometimes accidents.
Besides that: It is not necessary to carry millions of torches/flashlights .-)
I prefer 2 relyable ones. And not necessarly very bright ones. I spent many, many hours in caves with usually some 2-4lm (old ActionLight I on medium setting).
(In the former millenium I used to use some 500lm).
Since using the AL1 I never ever needed a backup light and I have at least 5 weeks a year dedicated to caving and several more weekend trips.
And further, going through a shallow and short sump without any SCUBA gear is quite common practice and nothing special.
But you need a rope to follow (not only a guideline) unless the siphon is only half a meter long.
But I have even seen people in this short distance to loose direction.
A torch/flashlight (hey on topic again!) may help if the buddies show you the way with it.
In a report from the oldest cave diving attempts in Great Britain, one diver writes that he stirred up the silt so fast that he thought that his light's bulb had blown.....
They main reason for accidents like this one is panic. One person might have had the feeling that he/she can not do it and turned around and everything turned into a mass.
I know a case where two (experinced) cavers met each other in the middle of a maybe 3-4m long sump. They had some misunderstanding about rope signals.
Due to their experience they stayed calm and nothing bad happened, actually the had a lot of fun afterwards about that occasion.
A novice might panic and let the rope go.
Back to bright lights: In some occasions they might blind you, so more is not always better.
James S
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t
[ QUOTE ]
David_Campen said:
[ QUOTE ]
I hope this will result in bars being installed across the entrance to whatever this is so that no others have to suffer the same fate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, since we have strayed off topic again. I find this type of comment annoying. Why do you take this paternalistic stance? If others want to risk their lives attempting to free dive a sump they should be permitted to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't say it had to be sealed forever against anyone visiting it. I said it shoudl have a locked door. We lock all sorts of doors to places that are dangerous, but if you ask someone and they see you're prepared they will let you in.
Same thing in most cave systems, if you visit a national park show cave you'll get the safe tour, but if you're a pro and want to explore the off limits area you have to go chat with the people that have the keys to the doors.
This is a place that should have a key and someone who can come out and let you into it to explore if you're an adult and want to do it. Problem is that when the door is just open, people and children go wandering in and exploring that have no business being there.
I'm not suggesting it be legislated, I'm suggesting that you give the key to some local folks with the experience to manage it like in so many other places all over everywhere. If there was an open sump on my property, or an open well, or an open mine i'd be expected to keep it locked up and safe so that people dont wander in that dont know how to be in there safely.
[ QUOTE ]
David_Campen said:
[ QUOTE ]
I hope this will result in bars being installed across the entrance to whatever this is so that no others have to suffer the same fate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, since we have strayed off topic again. I find this type of comment annoying. Why do you take this paternalistic stance? If others want to risk their lives attempting to free dive a sump they should be permitted to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't say it had to be sealed forever against anyone visiting it. I said it shoudl have a locked door. We lock all sorts of doors to places that are dangerous, but if you ask someone and they see you're prepared they will let you in.
Same thing in most cave systems, if you visit a national park show cave you'll get the safe tour, but if you're a pro and want to explore the off limits area you have to go chat with the people that have the keys to the doors.
This is a place that should have a key and someone who can come out and let you into it to explore if you're an adult and want to do it. Problem is that when the door is just open, people and children go wandering in and exploring that have no business being there.
I'm not suggesting it be legislated, I'm suggesting that you give the key to some local folks with the experience to manage it like in so many other places all over everywhere. If there was an open sump on my property, or an open well, or an open mine i'd be expected to keep it locked up and safe so that people dont wander in that dont know how to be in there safely.
LowWorm
Enlightened
Re: Four cavers die in UT - only one light among t
James, they actually did seal the entrance after recovering the bodies. Didn't want the area gaining notoriety and didn't want to run the risk of a repeat tragedy.
James, they actually did seal the entrance after recovering the bodies. Didn't want the area gaining notoriety and didn't want to run the risk of a repeat tragedy.
