How does a HID light lose 90% of it's power?

[rickypanecatyl]

I've got a "dual sport" (off road/on road) motorcycle that I retrofitted with a 50 watt,HID Bi-Xenon beam. The pattern and light output has been great though it's not a very robust unit.

Anyways the other day I was doing some hard core off road riding and my headlight actually fell off at one point. When I put it back together I was surprised it still worked but it was at a greatly reduced output. Comparing the light output to my Thrunite scorpion on high, before I would have said it was 5X the output and now I would say it is +/- 1/3. I would have thought it would have been all or nothing?

To get it working at full power again would you suspect ballast? Bulb? other? Thanks!

 

[Alaric Darconville]

By "retrofitted", did you mean that you replaced the original headlight, or gutted it and installed what sounds like an HID 'kit'? Or did you mean that you just attached this particular light somewhere on the bike? I sure hope you left the original headlight untouched and in place.

 

[argleargle]

1. Check the resistance of all ground wires. A flaky ground is often the cause of poor headlight performance. Take resistance readings between the ground at the unit and at the battery. Do you see any damaged insulation on any wire?

2. Where is your ballast? Check the resistance of all connections.

3. If your headlight "fell off," there might be mud or junk in the connectors. Just one piece of sand in the right place can completely disable certain types of vehicles.

This extra resistance can kill electrical components involved in your HID and even elsewhere on the vehicle. Power off the vehicle, do not energize, take immediate remedial action. If something hasn't blown yet, it is be coming soon. Headlight(s) tend to be the single biggest electrical draw on a vehicle (not counting battery-ignition of the engine itself.) You've got a big fat warning sign there.

Reasons for poor connections:
Damaged connectors
Foreign material between contact points
Corrosion
Damaged wiring
Poor clamping strength between male and female portions of a connector
Charred connection contacts due to arcing (possibly from pulling a live circuit and definitely from a loose connection)
...and the list goes on.

You might not be able to see charring inside a connector. I like an analog multimeter set for ohms while tracing flaky circuits. Use alligator clamp leads, hook to your test points, and gently move and wiggle the cable and connectors.

...of course you may have a damaged/dying "bulb."

Why did your headlight fall off? If the mounting bolts came loose and gave way, what makes you think any electrical connections are trustworthy in the slightest? Cracked connectors with loose wiring is difficult to notice at best and charred contact points inside a connector are extremely hard to see.

Consider thread-locking compound and new lock washers on your headlight mounting hardware for the future.

Is your charging system okay? Place an ANALOG multimeter (you can't use digital for this, it'll just roll numbers) on the battery itself. Crank the bike, rev the engine. Watch for something like 13-ish volts. If the needle of the meter doesn't move and you're seeing less than 11-ish volts, your charging system probably died and you'll find out about it next time you're out in the middle of nowhere. If you see like 16 volts (or some huge number) when your charging system kicks in, then it's killing and boiling your battery and that would be your voltage regulator that's fried. Pulling a high-draw item from an energized circuit could EASILY damage or destroy a solid state voltage regulator.

Is your battery damaged? Does it lose charge in a couple of hours of taking it off a battery charger? It might have lost a cell or be 95% "consumed." Leaving a vehicle battery charger on a computer-chipped "smart charger" (such as a Battery Tender) extends the usable life of your battery. You might get 3-5 years out of one on a bike doing this. How old is your battery?

Hope I'm not thread-killing. Please post back after some troubleshooting. In the meantime, discontinue use of the vehicle until you get it sorted.

Your bike could catch on fire. Don't store with the battery connected. You have an electrical problem, perhaps a short.

 

[-Virgil-]

I've got a "dual sport" (off road/on road) motorcycle that I retrofitted with a 50 watt,HID Bi-Xenon beam.

Such a lighting modification is illegal and unsafe. Rule 11 of this board prohibits advocating illegal or dangerous activity.

 

[argleargle]

I missed where he said "retrofitted." New-model BMW dual sports can come with a factory HID and there is a factory retrofit kit. He didn't say if it was factory or aftermarket retrofit kit, or even what bike it is. A factory or factory-refit HID is fine in the us?

Side note: BMW is shipping factory LED headlights now (sorry for the slightly OT.) Are those legal in the us?
link to the factory options sheet: http://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/motorcycles/enduro/bmw-r-1200-gs/prices-and-specifications.html
The only post I can find talking about them is from 2011. I'd hope the tech progressed past the point of the discussion in that thread.

I digress... The opinions I've read here searching this forum is that many don't approve of the color temperature of the various factory-HID or factory-retrofit setups.

 

[-Virgil-]

I missed where he said "retrofitted." New-model BMW dual sports can come with a factory HID and there is a factory retrofit kit.

Not with any 50w burner, there isn't. The only legitimate automotive HID systems are 35w or 25w.

The opinions I've read here searching this forum is that many don't approve of the color temperature of the various factory-HID or factory-retrofit setups.

There's nothing wrong with the color temperature of legitimate automotive HID headlamps.

 

[rickypanecatyl]

It certainly is NOT illegal here though I do care about America's laws as well as the spirit of the law is to not blind oncoming vehicles. It has a very pronounced cut off so that although there is (was) far more light than the stock light there was less in oncoming vehicles eyes than stock.

Thanks for the troubleshooting list argleeargle... I'll go thru that right away. On the topic of safety I've got my ballast pretty close to my gas tank. Is there a potential problem there?

 

[-Virgil-]

The "retrofit" you installed isn't legal in North America, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, or most of Asia, and I think that list probably includes wherever "here" is for you. It is illegal because it is unsafe in several different, distinct ways.

You were asked to stop discussing an illegal lighting modification. That was not an idle request -- stop it now.

 

[argleargle]

It certainly is NOT illegal here though I do care about America's laws as well as the spirit of the law is to not blind oncoming vehicles. It has a very pronounced cut off so that although there is (was) far more light than the stock light there was less in oncoming vehicles eyes than stock.

I've put a whole lot of thought in what I'm about to say. I've been thinking about this since you first posted. I even woke up this morning thinking about this thread.

I got into wrenching after being an electrical tech. I've been wrenching on whatever for almost 15 years after my career with electricity. Now I'm into flashlights for something to do. Please listen very very carefully.

Please listen very carefully: Halt! Halt! Halt!

You have gotten financially burned by a self-installed aftermarket (not factory) light drop-in. What you have done can set your bike on fire. The fact that you didn't address thread-locking compound or new lock washers on your headlight assembly speaks volumes. You don't know 100% of the details and trust me, there's more there than even *I* think I can learn. I physically cringed when you said you have your ballast near your gas tank.

1. You may have done hundreds or thousands of dollars of damage to your bike's electrical system.
2. After a bike fire, mostly what's left is a warped and unusable frame. I've seen plenty and had many tears on my shoulder asking if it could rebuilt. The engine housing melts, the plastic is long gone by then. The answer is a resounding NO!
3. You are in dire peril from physical harm or death from a simple gasoline spill at a gas station or dropping your bike on its side and having a gas cap leak.

Thanks for the troubleshooting list argleeargle... I'll go thru that right away. On the topic of safety I've got my ballast pretty close to my gas tank. Is there a potential problem there?

You're welcome. I'm 100% accustomed to talking to master mechanics and electrical engineers. The bar is very, very high to post here in the auto light section. It's nothing like the other sections. I'm glad you did so I could warn you that the path you're on will cost you your bike or your life in an electrical fire.

My best suggestion is to take your bike to a dealership and have it restored to stock by a certified master mechanic. It's cheaper than losing your bike and damn sure cheaper than replacing your skin. Bikers tend to say "I try not to wreck. It's skill." I'm saying "You're about to lose your bike in an electrical fire. Don't screw with non-standard lighting in a modern bike. THEY HATE IT!" Many bikes would have fried the charging system due to the nature of a ballast. Simply cranking your bike can short your ballast because you installed it yourself. Even BMW is having factory sub-system frying problems in new models due to cranking voltage and this was on 2010 bikes.

The people who sell these aftermarket HID bike kits are just some guy cranking out an often handmade product, unless they bought it from China and are simply selling a $10 item for $250. I've seen that particular scam before. Even a factory HID ballast has been extensively tested to work with your electrical subsystems. Some aftermarket kit? No proper place to put the ballast? Does the ballast draw fry some component now and then? Stop now. Please.

You want a great factory HID or even LED headlight system? Get a new model BMW, it's a factory option. If import were allowed to the US, then it's got to be fine. Don't screw with the main headlight as tempting as it sounds. I knew many guys who paid thousands of dollars a pop in fried components because they thought they could throw an over-amped headlight kit into a bike. Not one of them were happy. Longevity and reliability? Factory warranty?

Think about it. Your statements bothered me enough to post this much stuff for free to a total stranger. The moderator operates under the guidance of "instantly stopping discussion of illegal lighting mods." It's called Rule #11, and I've been beaten up over it before as well.

The biggest problem is when someone comes here and doesn't realize the magnitude of messing with factory lighting. Adding an auxiliary light has its perils, but it isn't even the same level of game.

Did you cut your wiring harness?

Good luck. Re-stock your bike, add low-draw factory suggested accessory lighting and happy riding! Keep two down, man!:buddies:

 

[rickypanecatyl]

Argleargle - Thanks for taking the time to warn me! I sincerely appreciate the time that post took for a complete stranger!


BMW certainly has a cool headlight on their all new KT1600 - they call it "adaptive headlight technology"... it's a bi-xenon projector with mirrors and moving bases to compensate for yaw and pitch! As far as I know though it's only available on the massive 1600 cc touring bike.
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/852/Motorcycle-Video/BMW-K1600GT-Adaptive-Headlight-Video.aspx


My bike "here" in Malaysia and Indonesia is a Kawasaki KLX 250; in America I have a 2011 KTM 690 enduro. Neither Malaysia or Indonesia have regulations for lighting (Indonesia we're still working on enforcing the basics such as no bombs in your hotel rooms). Malaysia is full of vehicles with 5 total lumens on the freeway, hundreds of multi color led lights on all sides, a few guys with thousands of lumens in your face and many vehicles trying to imitate emergency vehicles with their lighting (I think practically it's supposed to help them cut thru traffic faster but unfortunately it results in even ambulances not getting any breaks in traffic.)

So it's not the local law I'm bound by but safety for myself and others. Here 2/3rds of all traffic is on motorcycles. One of the biggest dangers at night time is poor lighting. Also of course blinding oncoming drivers. Compared to say the USA, our freeways are treachous first and foremost because of the disparity of speed. Lot's of guys doing 5 mph, some guys doing 100 mph. At night that is magnified. The guy doing 5 mph is usually a semi/trailer with little to no tail lights. It's not uncommon on a 3 lane freeway here to come around a corner and have a 10 mph semi with almost no tail lights, trying to pass a 5 mph semi with a guy in a sports guy doing 100 mph in the far right lane. Then there are elephants, pythons, water buffalo and wild boar commonly on the road. Good lights make a huge difference for reaction time.

My 2011 KTM 690 has a USA, DOT approved headlight. I am absolutely astounded that the DOT approved it. It was grossly irresponsible of them... the light has about the color, lumen output and beam shape of an old 3 D incandescent mag light. (FWIW the 2008/2012 model years of the same bike have a stock light 10X better). My KLX here in Malaysia is probably 5X better than the KTM and the retrofit HID when working was much, much better than that.

To the mods looking at this thread - I appreciate you leaving it open long enough for argleagle to get his message to me that my wiring system is dangerous.

I don't want to discuss an illegal lighting system but for the following reasons, it was not obvious to me that my lighting system was illegal and I mention it as I think there may be others reading this who would wonder the same thing.

1. The light I bought and company I bought it thru were highly recommended on this site with no one accusing them or the set up of being illegal.
2. The site itself says these particular lights are DOT legal in the USA.
3. From my understanding, the lights are identical to the Bi Xenons used in the newer Audi's. The thought did cross my mind there might be some copyright legality issues going on there but it never occured to me Audi would be using an illegal system.
4. Common sense when looking at the beams themselves and adjusting the height shows that while they have an amazing amount of total output, there is a very distinct cut off just below the line of site of oncoming vehicles. Of course we are left hand drive here and the web site gives you the option to order either way. On low beams the right side of the beam is cut off lower.


Argleagle raised some excellent safety points I sadly hadn't thought about and possibly wouldn't have thought about if this thread had been immediately shut down so once again thanks for giving him that chance.
For safety reasons, DOT legal lights are NOT acceptable on some modern dual sport bikes for riding after dark. For safety reasons its also not acceptable to wire good lights incorrectly. And the reality is, in many parts of the world, for safety reason you have to be able to drive after dark! (Wife gets bit by a cobra 22 miles from the hospital at 10 pm in a village with all motorcycles and no cars; More common scenario in places I work is civilians getting shot by military - world can suck but it is what it is!)
Therefore I'm suggesting it's important to be able to discuss these kinds of issues intelligently here.

 

[argleargle]

Great post, Ricky.

Question: Where did you buy that KTM? New or Used? If the headlight is "like a 3d maglite" and you got it in Indonesia, I'd check the bulb and reflector assembly to make sure it isn't actually a 3d maglite. Counterfeit parts are a problem even in the USA. Maybe try to find a picture of what the part is actually supposed to look like?

Just a few thoughts:
1. Let's talk about what's safe and legal, it's actually a tough game. Dangerous stuff is dangerous.

2. I think that Malay/Indonesia has de-sensitized you to people performing crazy operations on their vehicles that would literally get you literally arrested in the USA for illegal equipment and your vehicle impounded. Your stories are similar to some others I've heard. The "home of the days-long motorcycle traffic jam," quite literally a different world. The stories make me smile and shake my head, mostly because I'm glad I don't have to drive in that scary-sounding environment. If the USA roads were like that, I'd turn in my driver's license.

3. In the lawsuit-happy USA, main lighting that is aftermarket isn't a good idea. Someone is looking for an excuse to sue. I've spent so much time putting lighting back to stock and replacing unsafe butchered wiring harnesses... even more than fixing brakes! Accessory lighting on a dual-sport bike is a different thing, with its own traps and pitfalls. I know people who have had a bike impounded for LEDs shining on the engine, and generally looking like some sort of circus attraction or UFO. Anyway, I'd always wondered why there aren't more factory-approved drop-in solutions for main lighting and the people of this forum have helped. I now have been reading the regulating documents and criteria for fun and I should have done this decades ago. It really comes down to testing, engineering, proper focus, spread and throw, testing, and more engineering. We're talking literally millions of dollars in reasearch and development with entire teams of engineers. It's next to impossible for some regular guy in his workshop to compete with that.

4. What's safe and legal on one vehicle isn't necessarily so when you try to stuff those parts into another vehicle. This is why I've always advocated factory-suggested accessories simply because I've removed so many burned-out junk items and (and replaced the main wiring harness.) Factory-suggested accessories might even help the value of the vehicle, while other modifications do nothing for a vehicle's resale value. What's tested and works on one vehicle, might not even be safe on another vehicle. ...even if those parts were tested safe on some other vehicle!

Story time!!!

I knew a guy who smoked his wiring harness and charging system by trying to simply use a 15 watt hotter headlight bulb. The electrical system simply couldn't handle it, but had the spare wattage to run a heated vest and gloves. It had the wattage, it's just that the headlight portion of system couldn't take it. It ended up being $1500 USD damage in parts alone, not counting labor... just for swapping out to a non-supported bulb. Ouch! In theory, it should have worked, but was not factory tested. From what I know now about DOT and beam patterns with respect to reflector positioning, it might have even been legal! I have no idea, because the bulb blew up and I wouldn't have been able measure anything. I'm not even sure what he tried to put in there! His electrical system said "absolutely no," but fortunately it didn't result in a bike fire. His headlight wiring harness melted, shorted, smoked the main wiring harness, and completely blew the most expensive parts of his charging system. It figures that the fuses somehow blew AFTER the rotor and voltage regulator did. We ended up getting him fixed up, back to stock, and back on the road with an approved standard wattage halogen, new lens, new reflector.

The moral of the story? Needing a new reflector and lens cost him several thousands of dollars because he tried to "cheap out" and simply buy a higher wattage bulb after the one he had finally popped and went dark. That's right. His electrical system blew up by changing his headlight bulb. At first all he needed was a new standard watt headlight bulb and maybe $130 in parts. His reflector was falling apart. That was his real problem. The saying "penny wise, but pound foolish" comes to mind.

PS: If that K1600 is too tall for you, the BMW F800GS is a dual-sport with electronic suspension control and factory-lowering options. They can be kitted out extremely well for the off-road/dual sport environment with factory-approved stuff that shouldn't explode and burn. I'm tempted to test drive a bike just to shine the factory LED headlight on stuff and compare it with my flashlights! :devil:

The dual/sport environment is a harsh one. No place for hacked lighting, since failure might mean being stranded ten days walk to the nearest gas station. Unfortunately the USA roads are no place for it, either. Nobody here is going to support that, just to let you know.

 

[Phatty McPatty]

Ricky, most of your concepts have been answered in previous threads. Please search the forum FIRST before making the Mods repeat themselves endlessly.

1. The light I bought and company I bought it thru were highly recommended on this site with no one accusing them or the set up of being illegal.

Doesn't mean anything -- As they say, ignorance is bliss. And furthermore, do you really think that a company selling illegal headlights would allow negative comments on their site?? You do realize they have no obligation to be truthful, right? That should be plainly clear when they sell 50-watt automotive "headlights" as safety devices!

2. The site itself says these particular lights are DOT legal in the USA.

The DOT doesn't "approve" anything, further proof that the seller is being shady. Do an advanced search of the automotive forum using the keywords "DOT approved".

3. From my understanding, the lights are identical to the Bi Xenons used in the newer Audi's. The thought did cross my mind there might be some copyright legality issues going on there but it never occured to me Audi would be using an illegal system.

What are you claiming is identical, the entire headlight assembly or just the projector assembly? It may look physically identical to the naked eye, and the beam pattern shape may look identical to the naked eye, but they aren't -- comparing this stuff by eye and vague memory is about as accurate as a doctor comparing virus strains by eye. And Audi is almost certainly not using illegal lighting systems in any of the various vehicles with various xenon setups. At minimum, Audi is asserting that each of their vehicle's headlight systems is compliant.

4. Common sense when looking at the beams themselves and adjusting the height shows that while they have an amazing amount of total output, there is a very distinct cut off just below the line of site of oncoming vehicles. Of course we are left hand drive here and the web site gives you the option to order either way. On low beams the right side of the beam is cut off lower.

Common sense would raise a red flag in your head when you can't find legitimate manufacturers of "50-watt" automotive xenon bulbs. You can't find them because they don't exist. They don't exist because they're illegal (legal automotive xenon bulbs only come in the 25-watt or 35-watt variety). Therefore, common sense would tell you there is no safe adjustment of illegally hacked 50-watt HID "headlights".

For safety reasons, DOT legal lights are NOT acceptable on some modern dual sport bikes for riding after dark.

According to whom, the seller of your illegal headlights?

 

[SemiMan]

My bike "here" in Malaysia and Indonesia is a Kawasaki KLX 250; in America I have a 2011 KTM 690 enduro. Neither Malaysia or Indonesia have regulations for lighting (Indonesia we're still working on enforcing the basics such as no bombs in your hotel rooms). Malaysia is full of vehicles with 5 total lumens on the freeway, hundreds of multi color led lights on all sides, a few guys with thousands of lumens in your face and many vehicles trying to imitate emergency vehicles with their lighting (I think practically it's supposed to help them cut thru traffic faster but unfortunately it results in even ambulances not getting any breaks in traffic.)

Not sure about Indonesia, but I do know that Malaysia most certainly has standards for headlights and HID kits are illegal. Actually even a HID over 4300K is illegal. I knew that from trips the Malaysia but only took about 2 minutes on google to confirm: http://paultan.org/2005/09/10/jpj-makes-hid-illegal-without-approval/ No comment on enforcement, but you can choose to be part of the solution or part of the problem of course.

I am sure the moderator will have a comment on Indonesia.

 

[argleargle]

I think it's important to know if one is doing the wrong thing. A simple "thread closed" and OP would have never known. It's easy to think one is not doing the wrong thing when there's a law against it. So many laws...

Thanks for contributing, SM.

Hey, Ricky... you really should listen to Phatty.

We're giving you the straight dope, sorry if we come across as less than easygoing. It's because if you do the wrong thing with your electrical system you could die.

 

[rickypanecatyl]

Great post, Ricky.

Question: Where did you buy that KTM? New or Used? If the headlight is "like a 3d maglite" and you got it in Indonesia, I'd check the bulb and reflector assembly to make sure it isn't actually a 3d maglite. Counterfeit parts are a problem even in the USA. Maybe try to find a picture of what the part is actually supposed to look like?

Thanks! I bought the KTM new in the USA. It's there right now, so I don't have access to take a pic of the headlight but here is the bulb that goes in it: http://bulbster.com/lightbulbs/eiko-6235b-48056-p-2937.html?zenid=9d95b51d9d19025265338df2bfa7d0ec
That is coupled with a really poor reflector. First time I got caught out after dark I used my scorpion to get to get to a hotel as it probably allowed me to see 4X as good. The KTM 690 enduro is of course a street legal dual sport both in the USA and Europe.

Doesn't mean anything -- As they say, ignorance is bliss. And furthermore, do you really think that a company selling illegal headlights would allow negative comments on their site??

I meant THIS site.

The DOT doesn't "approve" anything, further proof that the seller is being shady. Do an advanced search of the automotive forum using the keywords "DOT approved".

My bad... I wasn't quoting the retrofit web site but paraphrasing according to my knowledge that was flawed. In my defense, I've often heard LEO's use the phrase/ask the question is _________ DOT approved (usually tires when riding dual sport bikes) as well as that is the way reputable tire sources advertise their tires.


What are you claiming is identical, the entire headlight assembly or just the projector assembly? It may look physically identical to the naked eye, and the beam pattern shape may look identical to the naked eye, but they aren't -- comparing this stuff by eye and vague memory is about as accurate as a doctor comparing virus strains by eye. And Audi is almost certainly not using illegal lighting systems in any of the various vehicles with various xenon setups. At minimum, Audi is asserting that each of their vehicle's headlight systems is compliant.

Bad analogy... most of us "flashaholics" can compare beam patterns better than doctors compare virus strains. And if the beam pattern LOOKS identical to the naked eye to one of the highest quality, safest projectors on the road (Audi FX) it's probably a pretty good beam!


Common sense would raise a red flag in your head when you can't find legitimate manufacturers of "50-watt" automotive xenon bulbs. You can't find them because they don't exist. They don't exist because they're illegal (legal automotive xenon bulbs only come in the 25-watt or 35-watt variety). Therefore, common sense would tell you there is no safe adjustment of illegally hacked 50-watt HID "headlights".

Disagree. Common sense pays more attention to the tangible safety factor of lights... how well does it help me see and does it hurt other people from seeing... (and will my cheap wiring explode ) than it does to assuming all the 50 watt HID street legal lights are illegal. Of course having the astuteness to recognize legitimate and illegitimate sites is valuable... just not as valuable as examining the product itself.


According to whom, the seller of your illegal headlights?

According to me - the operator of the vehicle. Obviously the 2011 KTM 690 enduro sold as a street legal vehicle in all 50 states had to meet some kind of requirements an hour ago I would have thought was "DOT approval." However the headlight does not let you see much better than a 3D incandescent mag. That is not safe. It does not matter if the law approved it or passed it. In fact it is ludicrous a modern nation would allow it.

Sometimes the spirit of the law contradicts the letter of the law. In that case while you hope for the law to be changed, updated or modified it's my preferance to default to the spirit of the law than the letter of the law; ie I would chose safety over legality in the areas they contradict. I'm sure many on this particular forum would disagree.

Not sure about Indonesia, but I do know that Malaysia most certainly has standards for headlights and HID kits are illegal. Actually even a HID over 4300K is illegal. I knew that from trips the Malaysia but only took about 2 minutes on google to confirm: http://paultan.org/2005/09/10/jpj-makes-hid-illegal-without-approval/ No comment on enforcement, but you can choose to be part of the solution or part of the problem of course.

Funny I don't often read the Star but I remember reading that article 7 1/2 years ago. JPJ did grant a more universal approval a couple weeks later.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Disagree. Common sense pays more attention to the tangible safety factor of lights... how well does it help me see and does it hurt other people from seeing... (and will my cheap wiring explode ) than it does to assuming all the 50 watt HID street legal lights are illegal.

Except that NO 50W HID lights are street legal.

Of course having the astuteness to recognize legitimate and illegitimate sites is valuable... just not as valuable as examining the product itself.

Unless you have a photogoniometer (to perform obective measuerments), examining the product itself does nothing but give you a subjective impression.

Also, your method of responding within a quote, while not prohibited, is confusing and hard-to-read, given your color choice and the way it can look like your responses are actually part of the quoted person's post.

 

[AnAppleSnail]

According to me - the operator of the vehicle. Obviously the 2011 KTM 690 enduro sold as a street legal vehicle in all 50 states had to meet some kind of requirements an hour ago I would have thought was "DOT approval." However the headlight does not let you see much better than a 3D incandescent mag. That is not safe. It does not matter if the law approved it or passed it. In fact it is ludicrous a modern nation would allow it.

DOT does not approve any headlights.

Sometimes the spirit of the law contradicts the letter of the law. In that case while you hope for the law to be changed, updated or modified it's my preferance to default to the spirit of the law than the letter of the law; ie I would chose safety over legality in the areas they contradict. I'm sure many on this particular forum would disagree.

Installing electronics in an unsafe way near your gas tank isn't safe. Nor is modifying your lighting system as Argleeagle pointed out. And this web site does not support illegal behavior. Why? Site policy. What is the spirit of the law spelling out specific outputs in various directions? Surely it must be the letter of those descriptions.

 

[argleargle]

Thanks! I bought the KTM new in the USA. That is coupled with a really poor reflector.

Ricky, I just told you about a guy who almost lost his bike because he didn't want to get the reflector fixed at a dealership or reputable mechanic. $130 turned into many thousands of dollars out of his pocket. It almost totaled the bike, but he finally chose to get it professionally fixed only after it blew up. I highlight parts of my writing for emphasis, for a reason.

I suggest you put the stock parts back on, have it checked by a dealership and sell it. Having a stock headlight that you can accept is critical for dual sport and for legality in the US.

First time I got caught out after dark I used my scorpion to get to get to a hotel as it probably allowed me to see 4X as good.

I'd have taken that bike STRAIGHT BACK to the dealer. It obviously had a problem.

The KTM 690 enduro is of course a street legal dual sport both in the USA and Europe.

Stock and unmodified, yes.

According to me - the operator of the vehicle. Obviously the 2011 KTM 690 enduro sold as a street legal vehicle in all 50 states had to meet some kind of requirements an hour ago I would have thought was "DOT approval." However the headlight does not let you see much better than a 3D incandescent mag. That is not safe. It does not matter if the law approved it or passed it. In fact it is ludicrous a modern nation would allow it.

You're describing an electrical problem with the bike when it was new and stock. Stuff goes wrong with a new vehicle from time to time. There can be problems with a new vehicle straight from a dealer. You may have lost your warranty. I think it's 100% that the electrical problem is still there, only now you're drawing more wattage than normal and coming closer and closer to critical failure.

Malasia and Indonesia and your bikes and vehicles there are not pertinent to what we're talking about. It's the US and the bike that's in it.

What you said about the Audi projectors being safe might apply if they were actually on an Audi, not a KTM.

"Flashaholic" is not the same as an engineer, mechanic, or lawyer.

 

[-Virgil-]

Neither Malaysia or Indonesia have regulations for lighting

Actually, that's not true. See here (HID kits and retrofitment illegal in Malaysia). Be careful not to assume there's no law about something just because you're not aware of the applicable law. And even if they weren't illegal, what you did fails on the technical (de)merits -- it's still unsafe. Thank you for realizing that.

JPJ did grant a more universal approval a couple weeks later.

Really? I'm not finding any evidence of it. All the recent discussions I find on the net converge on a common assertion that factory-installed, legitimate HID headlamps are legal and aftermarket retrofits are not.

My 2011 KTM 690 has a USA, DOT approved headlight. I am absolutely astounded that the DOT approved it.

There is no such thing as a "DOT approved headlight". The US DOT does not approve vehicle equipment.

the retrofit HID when working was much, much better than that.

Probably not. Subjective impressions are usually out of line with objective reality when assessing the safety performance of a vehicle headlamp.

The light I bought and company I bought it thru were highly recommended on this site

That is an interesting opinion. Most of the threads I've seen on this board about that company and their products are highly UNcomplimentary.

with no one accusing them or the set up of being illegal

Actually, most every thread about that company and their products mentions and explains the illegality of the products they offer.

The site itself says these particular lights are DOT legal in the USA

I don't think so. Before I zapped your link to a commercial vendor of an unsafe/illegal product, I reviewed the page and subsequent pages thoroughly. Didn't find any such claim. If there were such a claim on that website, it would be false.

From my understanding, the lights are identical to the Bi Xenons used in the newer Audi's

Also not correct.

The thought did cross my mind there might be some copyright legality issues going on there but it never occured to me Audi would be using an illegal system

Wow, big logical leap there. Audi does not use illegal headlamps. What you bought is not Audi headlamp equipment. And even if you had bought headlamp components out of an Audi, swapping them into another headlamp and equipping them with a 50w bulb and ballast renders them unsafe and (in most countries including yours) illegal.

Common sense when looking at the beams themselves and adjusting the height shows that while they have an amazing amount of total output, there is a very distinct cut off. Common sense pays more attention to the tangible safety factor of lights... how well does it help me see and does it hurt other people from seeing... (and will my cheap wiring explode ) than it does to assuming all the 50 watt HID street legal lights are illegal. Of course having the astuteness to recognize legitimate and illegitimate sites is valuable... just not as valuable as examining the product itself. most of us "flashaholics" can compare beam patterns better than doctors compare virus strains. And if the beam pattern LOOKS identical to the naked eye to one of the highest quality, safest projectors on the road (Audi FX) it's probably a pretty good beam!

Sorry, no. None of that's correct. Headlamp safety performance is a great deal more complex than you seem to realize. It cannot be adequately judged by "common sense" or subjective impressions. Lighting experts (actual ones) are markedly less likely than eager enthusiasts to trust their subjective impressions, because experts know how unreliable those impressions are. Light intensity and distribution under and above the cutoff is much more crucial than the presence, shape, or sharpness of the cutoff. It is not an "assumption" that 50w HID headlamps are illegal, it's a fact.

For safety reasons, DOT legal lights are NOT acceptable on some modern dual sport bikes for riding after dark.

It would take a great deal of time and space to untie this logical knot fully. On the surface, it looks like you are saying there's not 100% overlap between what's legal and what's safe. If that's what you mean, you're right. However, that does not justify grossly unsafe and illegal lighting modifications, and your 50w HID retrofit qualifies as grossly unsafe and illegal.

Also, I must echo Alaric's request: Please don't fiddle with the quoting system on the board. It makes your text hard to read and the conversational thread hard to follow.

 

[argleargle]

1. Take a deep breath. Relax. Count to ten. Done? Use your brain now, search and read. Anyone selling something could be lying. I'm posting this for free.

2. There is a large amount of most excellent advice in this thread. Think carefully and ask questions instead of stating facts. Well, at first, anyway.

3. Ricky, what is your native language? I would hate for misunderstanding to happen because of choice of words.

4. You have been presented with many possible solutions and told the truth about the risks. Because an idiot modified his vehicle to be unsafe doesn't mean that it is true worldwide. As I said, Indonesia has made you to not think clearly about a lot of very careful research and experience.

5. This isn't a $3 flashlight, it is the life and death of the innocent. Any man or woman of any faith can respect that.

PS: don't you think a dual sport manufacturer would be humiliated to lose Paris-Dakar due to a faulty stock factory headlight? How much do you think the big Marques spent to sponsor a racer for Internatiolal Six Days Trial? Answer? More money than I've ever seen. You can't beat that ordering stuff off of the Internet.

If you read my posts, it should worry you when there is blood on it.