How far can LiIon be discharged?

Gauss163

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A simple model with a resistor and capacitor? Then why do you show a model with 4 resistors, 3 capacitors and 1 inductor. Adding enough part and you can get a good model.

Isn't that obvious? They are trying to very accurately model the entire impedance spectrum, which requires further components that can model each of the 5 mentioned components of impedance. That level of accuracy is not needed to roughly explain why voltage sag occurs.

Note that my initial remark was certainly not meant to limit models to a single resistor and capacitor. It was very quickly edited (2 months ago!) to clarify that once I realized the possible ambiguity. Did you miss that edit? (you seem to keep quoting the (long nonexistant) unedited version; this only serves to obfuscate the essence of the matter).
 
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Gauss163

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I quoted your post, but I am glad you admit to obfuscate the matter.

Again you (purposely?) misread. I said nothing of the sort. But by now it is clear that you have no interest in learning about these very interesting models so I won't waste any further time trying to explain them to you.

To anyone that is interested in learning more about internal resistance and impedance, I highly recommend following the links given in the paper I cited. Understanding these models and related matters will greatly increase your understanding of Li-ion batteries.
 
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HKJ

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Again you (purposely?) misread. I said nothing of the sort. But by now it is clear that you have no interest in learning about these very interesting models so I won't waste any further time trying to explain them to you.

Thanks and please do not quote my comments out of context.
PS: The model you show do not show actual impedance for a cell during discharge. It shows dynamic behaviour, you will have to adjust the component values during discharge. This may be fine for a computer simulation, but not for an easy explanation.
 

Gauss163

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@HKJ If you would only read more about these matters then you would learn that the models work fine across the entire spectrum of discharges. I think you have completely missed the point of my recent post. I already gave an excerpt from an exposition from one of the most respected researchers in the field that shows how one can effectively use such simple models when teaching introductions to these matters. The point of my recent post was to supplement that with some links to slightly more complex models, to show how much insight they lend on such matters. I am completed baffled as to why you continue to attack these models. They are very widely used and prove tremendously useful, both at introductory and advanced levels.
 
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HKJ

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@HKJ If you would only read more about these matters then you would learn that the models work fine across the entire spectrum of discharges.

Then please explain how for resistors in series can model different internal resistance at different charge levels.
If anybody want to check: The article with the above model includes a table with different component values at different charge states, just as I wrote above.
The direct link to the article is: http://jes.ecsdl.org/content/162/8/A1592.full.pdf


They are very widely used and prove tremendously useful, both at introductory and advanced levels.

I have no doubt that models are useful also outside universities, but this is a hobby forum where people comes for practical advice, not to get a degree or design a mobile phone power system. This means most people like simple explanations, not research papers.
 

Gauss163

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@HKJ There were no claims that the simpler models account for all aspects of Li-ion behavior. But there are more sophisticated models that do so (which, in fact, you would have learned if you had delved into the literature I linked when I informed you about the ideas used in the Philips and Tesla fast-charging algorithms)

By now we've gone far beyond my original remark, which was meant to refer to simple models such as those in the excerpt of Barsukov's introduction that I posted (which some readers remarked that they did find helpful). Those readers who do have an interest in more sophisticated models can chase the links to learn more.
 

HKJ

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@HKJ There were no claims that the simpler models account for all aspects of Li-ion behavior.

In this thread the discussion was about the increased impedance when the battery is nearly empty, where I say a simple model do not cover it. All your writings has not showed otherwise.
With you postings it is chasing links and maybe sometime hitting something. I do not play that game, I prefer direct links and luckily most people around here has it the same way.
 

Gauss163

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In this thread the discussion was about the increased impedance when the battery is nearly empty, where I say a simple model do not cover it. All your writings has not showed otherwise.

To better focus the discussion let's recall my original suggestion
Good choice of topic. It would help to explain a bit about the reason for the voltage drop / bounce, i.e. say something about internal resistance, maybe even mention some simple cell models using resistor(s) and capacitor(s) (the motivation being that it is better to teach them how to fish than to serve them fish on a platter, i.e the better conceptual model that the reader has, the easier they can answer such FAQs on their own).

I posted that because there is not a single word about internal resistance (or impedance) in your tutorial, yet this is a crucial component to comprehend in order to gain a better understanding of these matters.

My hope was that you would add some simple explanation that gives the reader a rough qualitative understanding of the crucial role that it plays here (there is certainly no need for a precise quantitative understanding for expositions at this level). Hence my mention of simple models such as equivalent circuit models. I even provided a sample exposition by experts along those lines. But if you prefer some other way to explain these ideas then that is fine too. Anything that lends some intuition on the crucial role played by IR is certainly better than nothing, since lack of knowledge about such is often the major gap preventing new users from properly comprehending such matters.

With you postings it is chasing links and maybe sometime hitting something. I do not play that game, I prefer direct links and luckily most people around here has it the same way.

If you are interested in learning about more precise quantitative models then you can either start by chasing the links I provided (that's how scientific research works) or you can do some obvious web searches, such as "equivalent circuit model li-ion impedance" where you will find many pertinent papers, e.g. below is an excerpt from a random match that shows how the parameters are chosen in one particular model: Modelling of Li-ion batteries using equivalent circuit diagrams, by A. Rahmoun, H. Beichl, Przeglad Elektrotechniczny 88(7): 152-156 · December 2011. You can similarly locate many hundreds of articles on other models, with various strengths and weaknesses.

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Capolini

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This has been entertaining but ridiculous!

Ones EGO AND PRIDE runs rampant when One is so focused, adamant and concerned about being RIGHT!:shakehead
 

HKJ

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I posted that because there is not a single word about internal resistance (or impedance) in your tutorial, yet this is a crucial component to comprehend in order to gain a better understanding of these matters.

And I do simply not see the need for that in this article.
I post a few articles each year, often based on data I have measured. I try to write these article in a not too technical style, i.e. they are not aimed at university students or mobile phone developers, but at people that uses batteries for hobbies.
If you want a more advanced level, you are welcome to post your own articles.
 

Gauss163

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If you want a more advanced level, you are welcome to post your own articles.

Ok, I'll post an alternative exposition that goes a bit deeper. Honestly, at the start, I thought it was simply an oversight, and that you'd add a couple sentences, and that would be the end of it.
 
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HKJ

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Ok, I'll post an alternative exposition that goes a bit deeper. Honestly, at the start, I thought it was simply an oversight, and that you'd add a couple sentences, and that would be the end of it.

Remember to put that in a new thread. I will be looking forward to it (I have nothing against more advanced stuff, but it do not below in this thread).
 

Gauss163

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Yes, of course it will be a new thread, we've already veered too far off on tangents here. If only you had mentioned at the start that you had made a conscious decision to not discuss internal resistance then we could have avoided the entire tangent. That decision was something I never would have guessed, since you mention IR frequently in other places here.
 

Capolini

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TO HKJ:

SORRY FOR POSTING THIS HERE. I DID NOT KNOW ANY OTHER WAY,,,,,,,,YOU USUALLY ANSWER MY EMAILS, HOWEVER THE LAST TWO REMAIN UNANSWERED. COULD YOU PLEASE ANSWER THEM?

MY ONLY OTHER OPTION IS TO START A THREAD WHICH I DON'T WANT TO DO!

,,,THANKS,,,,,,,,,,CAPOLINI :D
 

HKJ

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TO HKJ:

SORRY FOR POSTING THIS HERE. I DID NOT KNOW ANY OTHER WAY,,,,,,,,YOU USUALLY ANSWER MY EMAILS, HOWEVER THE LAST TWO REMAIN UNANSWERED. COULD YOU PLEASE ANSWER THEM?

MY ONLY OTHER OPTION IS TO START A THREAD WHICH I DON'T WANT TO DO!

,,,THANKS,,,,,,,,,,CAPOLINI :D

Sorry about that, I have been sick this week and not done much. That is also the reason for no reviews most of the week.
I am nearly up to speed again and will take a look on your pm's.
 

Capolini

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Sorry about that, I have been sick this week and not done much. That is also the reason for no reviews most of the week.
I am nearly up to speed again and will take a look on your pm's.


GLAD YOUR FEELING BETTER! THANKS HKJ,,I APPRECIATE THE REPLY!:)
 

Gauss163

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+1 Get well soon

A little cellular advice often works wonders for me:
Dr. Li Ion said:
to improve health and internal resistance, avoid getting too charged up while hot under the collar. :hairpull:

But, seriously, best of luck on a fast recovery charge.
 
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