Stereodude
Flashlight Enthusiast
My car has ~100k miles and is still on the original HIDs bulbs FWIW.
How long until HID overtakes LED?
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Nubo
Enlightened
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dulridge
Enlightened
In 150 miles on Sunday (all in the dark) I had the main beams on for 9 seconds. This is typical.
Apart from the illegality for road use of HID lights anyway, in practice any advantages are primarily on the occasions when you can use them on full power - which is rare on UK roads. And I live in one of the sparsely populated bits.
2xTrinity
Flashlight Enthusiast
Vehicle HID lights are essentially compact Metal Halide lamps. Metal Halide lamps used in street lighting, warehouse lighting, and outdoor lighting typically last several years in 12hr/day cycles, or well over 10000 hours -- not 500. I'm sure a significant amount of wear and tear takes place though when they are switched off and on, so the cumulative number of hours of service will likely be lower in the case of a flashlight or vehicle light application, but even then it should still be over 500 unless you only switch the light on for a few seconds at a time regularly.
Strange, In the USA, most cars equipped with HID headlights use them for low-beams, which are on continually in the rain or after dark. And to comply with laws regarding maximum beam-intensity, as the HID lights produce about 2-3x as many lumens, they typically distribute the extra lumens into a wider angle beam pattern. They will either use a movable reflector element to change the beam pattern, or more commonly use separate halogen lamps for high-beams. A dedicated HID high-beam doesn't make any sense IMO, unless it's designed for off-road use only.
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Gunner12
Flashaholic
HID lights are already infront of LEDs(And always have been, when will LEDs surpass HIDs?). You can tell that by some of the posts above.
Depending on the bulb and ballast, HIDs don't usually need much of a heatsink(well, for the ballast yes but no so much the bulb) and they have a much higher surface brightness then LEDs(More throw for the same sized reflector).
When LEDs hit at least 15 watt and 100 lumen per watt, HIDs will still be the thing to go to if you want output.
Depending on the bulb and ballast, HIDs don't usually need much of a heatsink(well, for the ballast yes but no so much the bulb) and they have a much higher surface brightness then LEDs(More throw for the same sized reflector).
When LEDs hit at least 15 watt and 100 lumen per watt, HIDs will still be the thing to go to if you want output.
Where HID, or really sodium lighting (more efficient and less depreciation than metal halide/HID) rules is lighting up large areas - parking lots, roads, etc. One 1000W sodium lamp puts out 126,000 lumens - at this point it would be very costly to do that with LED's. Don't worry though, as soon as the lower maintenance cost (or better efficiency?) of LED's will pay for the premium up-front cost (ROI within 3 yrs or so), someone will try it.
I think LED's will have to get very much brighter to overtake the currently used solutions to lighting large areas and long throw. At the rate that advances are being made now it may not take long. What I'm not aware of is some type of "barrier" - a point, or more correctly temperature, at which single LED's just can't exceed without major design problems (that arc putting out 126,000 lumens is probably a pretty hot and severe place).
I think LED's will have to get very much brighter to overtake the currently used solutions to lighting large areas and long throw. At the rate that advances are being made now it may not take long. What I'm not aware of is some type of "barrier" - a point, or more correctly temperature, at which single LED's just can't exceed without major design problems (that arc putting out 126,000 lumens is probably a pretty hot and severe place).
Stereodude
Flashlight Enthusiast
My car leaves the HID lights on all the time even when the high beams are on. The high beams are Halogen.
Marduke
Flashaholic
Wattnot
Enlightened
Some of the higher end European cars now have "Bi-Xenon" headlamps. That is their way of saying "low AND high beams are Xenon." I have these on my car. They come on pretty quick. There doesn't seem to be that momentary startup delay like the lows have. However, I have halogens that come on with the highbeams as well. The amount of light my car throws out when you pull back that stalk is almost sick! You guys would LOVE it!
Agree. LED's are accelerating further and further away from HID and catching up with flourescents. They are not quite there yet when you take into account efficiency of the converter to drive the LED's but they are getting there and with all the benefits of LED's over compact flourescent, there's a huge financial incentive for manufacturers to improve upon LED technology. There is a very large market for efficient lighting that do not carry any environmental baggage like flourescent technology. Now what was that other thing again? Oh, yeah, HID...
I dont know why anybody would expect HID to make huge jumps anymore.
Its a mature technology that wont get anywhere fast.
It _is_ better for bigger lamps, but the cutoff at which point leds are better has been rising considerably. (You wont get those 109Lm/W at anything small. PLUS you thats bulb efficiency. Tiny ballasts arent that great either).
Experiments with tiny HIDs for flashlights are completely pointless nowadays.Anything 10W and below doesnt really do it anymore (yeah, they can made into a better thrower. But good look actually seeing something in that tiny spot with only 500lumens or so).
Like people above said, 24W, or even 50W is a completely different story, but those dont really play in the same league.
Its a mature technology that wont get anywhere fast.
It _is_ better for bigger lamps, but the cutoff at which point leds are better has been rising considerably. (You wont get those 109Lm/W at anything small. PLUS you thats bulb efficiency. Tiny ballasts arent that great either).
Experiments with tiny HIDs for flashlights are completely pointless nowadays.Anything 10W and below doesnt really do it anymore (yeah, they can made into a better thrower. But good look actually seeing something in that tiny spot with only 500lumens or so).
Like people above said, 24W, or even 50W is a completely different story, but those dont really play in the same league.
Bloodnut
Newly Enlightened
That's pretty interesting. Looking at the SF Beast, I thought that there might be a way to scale it down to an M4 size while retaining the most of the massive output. Same thing with the Polarions. It seem(ed) to me that if engineers could get around the issues with momentary-on and size issues, you would have one heck of a tac light.
So to reverse the question, are we going to see an LED version of The Beast, or even the M6?
So to reverse the question, are we going to see an LED version of The Beast, or even the M6?
matrixshaman
Flashlight Enthusiast
If we had believed theoretical limits for many things that were stated around computers we would all still be running 1 Gig hard drives on slow computers. The amount of data that can be stored on a disk has far exceeded the original theoretical limits I read in the 70's and 80's. Other theoretical limits have been exceeded and that is why they are 'theoretical' - they are not proven limits. When someone comes up with a new idea or technology it all changes.
LED's are getting into everything. Some large cities are well underway retrofitting the city with LED lighting. LED's will be so omnipresent there won't be any need for high power HID lighting except possibly automotive IMO. Maybe all roadways will eventually have LED lighting eliminating any need for headlights
Just one of my little guages - Target store. Do a search on LED and you get 866 hits. Do a search on HID and you get 29 but they all seemed related to the past tense of the word hide as in 'he hid under the sheets'.
The amount of manufacturing that is gearing up in LED's far exceeds HID IMO and I've looked around quite a lot. HID is largely present in automotive. And while I've got 2 HID flashlights I like they get little use compared to LED lights. I don't see any 'bulb' ever replacing my LED devices. I forget which car it is but a high end (Lexus??) has LED headlights.
So I go with what most have said here - how long before LED overtakes HID?
joema
Flashlight Enthusiast
The "theoretical limit" for LEDs is based on absolute physical limits. Just as as an engine can't be over 100% efficient, you can't have more light output than energy input.
More info on this: http://ledsmagazine.com/features/2/5/4/1
The absolute limit for white light LEDs is roughly 400 lumens/watt. It will NEVER be surpassed, unless physics totally changes.
If changes of that magnitude happen, we'll probably have warp drive, zero-point energy, etc. so LED output will be the least of our concerns.
However we need not wait until LED efficiency exceeds even half of this (200 lumens/watt) for them to rival HID in many applications.
Unlike HID, LEDs can be mass produced and used in multi-emitter arrays. LEDs are semiconductor devices, so benefit from the vast global investment in semiductor technology and physics.
Even using current LED technology, impressive things are possible. As efficiency improves, mfg costs decline, and engineers become more accustomed to using high-power LEDs, these will proliferate in many areas now occupied by incandescent and HID.
Here's an prototype hand-held LED light that outputs over 20,000 lumens. If a mfg was interested and perceived a market for this, it could be produced today: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2195614
Handlobraesing
Banned
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In some applicagtions,such as high bay, CFLs are replacing HID.
HIDs are very intense and high output, but they degrade quite a bit during life.
HIDs are very intense and high output, but they degrade quite a bit during life.
yaesumofo
Flashlight Enthusiast
Just a guess but I would say that automotive HID lamps are over built and under rated. So when they are driven at their rated current they are actually being UNDER DRIVEN.
The 500 hour is a pretty LOW number. One hour driving at night on the way home from work would burn out a 500 hour lamp in a little over over a year. An hour in the morning and at night and the lamp would not even last a year...I suspect auto HID lamps are rated at more like 5000 hours than 500.
NOt hard if the lamps are under driven.
Yaesumofo
The 500 hour is a pretty LOW number. One hour driving at night on the way home from work would burn out a 500 hour lamp in a little over over a year. An hour in the morning and at night and the lamp would not even last a year...I suspect auto HID lamps are rated at more like 5000 hours than 500.
NOt hard if the lamps are under driven.
Yaesumofo
superjoe83
Newly Enlightened
automotive 35w HID bulbs are rated at 3000hrs, at 1500hrs they have lost about 25% of their lumens
mdocod
Flashaholic
marduke should not have used the term "theoretical" at all. The thread he linked to discusses the hard limits of conservation of energy.
But that doesnt have anything to do with the discussion at hand. The same rules are also true for all other kinds of creating light, so its in no way some kind of special "limit" inherent to LEDs.
DaveNagy
Newly Enlightened
That sounds right. All the different types of lighting technology (incandescent, florescent, HID, etc) are subject to that same hard limit of ~400 lumen/watt. I think that's correct. It's just that some technologies make it easier to approach that limit.
It isn't a theoretical limit. It's built into the very definition of lumens and watts. If you convert all the electrical energy in a "watt" into light that is optimized to be seen by the human eye, you'll end up with about 400 lumens of visible light. No heat, no invisible wavelengths. No energy is wasted. You are seeing it ALL. It's like asking, "What's the maximum number of cups you can get out of a gallon?" Answer: 16. Will we be able to get 17 cups of water out of a gallon jug someday? Probably not.
The only thing "theoretical" in this discussion is the perfect technology that would let us reach that ~400 lm/watt limit. In practice, we'll probably only be able to get close.
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