How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

[cave dave]

Jumpmaster,
In that case you should:
a) read the entire post
b) order the black or natural Ion because they are Mil III


But frankly I just don't get it. :shakehead Who cares? Use it, abuse it, wear it out and buy something better in two years when its obsolete.

The only lights I baby are the SPY005 and the ARCAA. And I just sold the Arc because it was a shelf queen collectors item (and yes it is obsolete, replaced with Peak Pacific AA pocket body). I really need to use the spy though, I will never sell it, but it is irreplacable.

Unlike knives very few lights will be collectors items for very long, because the technology will make them obsolete. If you want to keep it as an investment (Ti PD) then it should never be taken out of the packaging or played with. Yuck, whats the point!

 

[Jumpmaster]

Jumpmaster,
In that case you should:
a) read the entire post

I did. I understood it. My point is still valid.

Here is an example...it would be the same as if Thales sells a radio and says it meets MIL-STD 810 except for water-resistance. Well guess what...water-resistance is part of MIL-STD 810. Therefore, it does not meet MIL-STD 810.

Got it?

I don't really care. It's a nice light. I'm just saying if it doesn't meet the spec for abrasion resistance, it DOESN'T FLIPPING MEET THE SPECIFICATION.

JM-99

 

[cy]

sorry but every fenix I've done scratch test on... scratches right thru. this is done on a L1-P model w/logo on side indicating later model.

knife used is a small sebbie..

The Fenix is HA, anodize type III finish. cy may be referring to the older Fenixes which were considered slightly harder than normal type II finish, but softer than mil-spec type III. It was often called HA2.5 here on the forums I believe. The newer Fenixes I have all seem to have better, harder finishes than those earlier models.

 

[Somy Nex]

sorry but every fenix I've done scratch test on... scratches right thru. this is done on a L1-P model w/logo on side indicating later model.

knife used is a small sebbie..

I know the coating on the Fenix is probably less thick than others, but LedMuseum has tried his scratch test and mentioned that it was HAIII.

I wonder if you have tried the same on the outside of the light. I know it doesn't make sense, but the I scratched the inside with increasing amounts of force until i made a mark, and then tried it outside, and up to that point at least, it did not leave any gouge on the HA (though it did leave a sort of smudge mark).

another question would be how much force would you consider necessary to test whether it is HAIII or not? it would probably depend in part to the thickness of the anodizing, but a thin layer of type III anodize is still a type III anodize right? it just wouldn't hold up to the more forceful attempts at scratching it because what is underneath is still soft aluminium...

anyway, i'm inclined to believe that there is some sort of HAIII on the Fenix, as it does withstand light to light-moderate scratches from my swiss army knife, but it probably is just a very thin layer of it... does that make any sense?

 

[cy]

not very much pressure is required to break thru anodic film with a hard knife. naturally I'm going to chose a spot that will not be noticed. if scratch test fails.

yes I've done this test a number of times on outsides of flashlights. but they were all HA natural lights. dyed anodize can look either way. and no it's not hard anodize unless full penatration has taken place.

note: my test are only valid for fenix's I've done scatch tests on. later fenix's could have improved.

if fenix's finish was not dyed black. it's anodic film in natural state would be almost clear. that's why I prefer HA natural. it's honest.

quality HA natural will come out the color of Surefire/Arc's.
assuming a quality aluminun alloy has been used.

I know the coating on the Fenix is probably less thick than others, but LedMuseum has tried his scratch test and mentioned that it was HAIII.

I wonder if you have tried the same on the outside of the light. I know it doesn't make sense, but the I scratched the inside with increasing amounts of force until i made a mark, and then tried it outside, and up to that point at least, it did not leave any gouge on the HA (though it did leave a sort of smudge mark).

another question would be how much force would you consider necessary to test whether it is HAIII or not? it would probably depend in part to the thickness of the anodizing, but a thin layer of type III anodize is still a type III anodize right? it just wouldn't hold up to the more forceful attempts at scratching it because what is underneath is still soft aluminium...

anyway, i'm inclined to believe that there is some sort of HAIII on the Fenix, as it does withstand light to light-moderate scratches from my swiss army knife, but it probably is just a very thin layer of it... does that make any sense?

 

[4sevens]

CY,

I have to say you're wrong about Fenix being not HAIII. They are indeed
HAIII which requires lots of current pumped through the aluminum bodies in
a hot acidic batch.

There are of course varying thickness so your scratch test cannot be
a sure test of whether it's HAIII or not.

CPF'er "Steve Vance" did a chemical test on his fenix and the result was
positive. It is HAIII and not mere paint as you suggest.

 

[Jay R]

I just tried to scratch up my Civictor and Maglight with the end of a wire paperclip. This was done on the outside of the Mag and the inside of the Civictor. The Mag was easy to mark but I couldn't get the (Fenix) Civictor to scratch up at all. There was a faint silver mark but that was just the metal rubbing off the paperclip onto the light and it wiped off with a finger. I'm guessing that the 'proper' Fenix lights will be even better than that.

 

[carrot]

sorry but every fenix I've done scratch test on... scratches right thru. this is done on a L1-P model w/logo on side indicating later model.

knife used is a small sebbie..

How "new" are we talking? My new Fenix is no more than 3 weeks old and my 154CM Mini-Grip bounces right off the finish, unlike the older model I have... *with* a logo on the side.

 

[greenLED]

How "new" are we talking? My new Fenix is no more than 3 weeks old and my 154CM Mini-Grip bounces right off the finish, unlike the older model I have... *with* a logo on the side.

Maybe you're not trying hard enough, carrot? I just scratched the batt tube on my L1P (with logo) using the tip of my Leatherman micra tool (scissors). At first I couldn't get a scratch, but then I pushed a little harder, and made a scratch. :thinking:

 

[mchlwise]

Maybe you're not trying hard enough, carrot? I just scratched the batt tube on my L1P (with logo) using the tip of my Leatherman micra tool (scissors). At first I couldn't get a scratch, but then I pushed a little harder, and made a scratch. :thinking:

I just jammed an ice pick into mine as hard as I could, and it left a mark.

/sarcasm



Seriously: how well can one expect true HAIII to hold up, and how much is it supposed to withstand? As an earlier poster mentioned, no matter how "true" the HAIII is, it's really just a thin film over a soft metal, and when hit, scraped, poked, or scratched hard enough, it's going to leave a mark - if nothing else from failure and deformation of the soft aluminum underneath. HAIII doesn't turn aluminum into Tungsten or something unscratchable, and when attacked hard enough, it will scratch.

Or am I wrong?

 

[Jay R]

Or am I wrong?

No. You are spot on.

 

[Manzerick]

ahhhhh a Tungsten McLux...


Don???? Don??

 

[greenLED]

I just jammed an ice pick into mine as hard as I could, and it left a mark.

/sarcasm



Seriously: how well can one expect true HAIII to hold up, and how much is it supposed to withstand? As an earlier poster mentioned, no matter how "true" the HAIII is, it's really just a thin film over a soft metal, and when hit, scraped, poked, or scratched hard enough, it's going to leave a mark - if nothing else from failure and deformation of the soft aluminum underneath. HAIII doesn't turn aluminum into Tungsten or something unscratchable, and when attacked hard enough, it will scratch.

Or am I wrong?

Try the same test with a SF and you'll see the difference. I see your point and agree about deformation. There must be a standard test of HA thickness/hardness that we can refer to objectively.

 

[TinderBox (UK)]

never mind HAIII, I want whatever they they put on drill bits that make them last 10 times longer, you know the gold coating.:naughty:

regards.

 

[Jumpmaster]

There must be a standard test of HA thickness/hardness that we can refer to objectively.

I believe that specification is found in MS-8625-A, but I cannot locate a copy of it at the moment...

JM-99

 

[Jay R]

ahhhhh a Tungsten McLux...


Don???? Don??

Don't. It will still scratch if you run a knife down it. On the other hand....... if you don't run a knife down it you are just left with a nice light.

 

[mchlwise]

There must be a standard test of HA thickness/hardness that we can refer to objectively.

That would be GREAT if there is, or if we could come up with one.

I'm sure that HAIII varies from light to light, probably even on the same model from the same manufacturer. Some would be significantly thicker and therfore more durable than others. Perhaps, for example, Surefire's is pretty thick and Fenix's is pretty thin, therefore the Surefire is much more durable although they're both HAIII.

Maybe someone could come up with some kind of a rig consisting of a sharp point (carbide?) and a mechanism to vary pressure as it drags across a surface, and a gauge to measure what it takes to get through the anodize.

It would sure be nice if Doug (or someone) could add some measure of "hardness" or "scratch resistance" from such a rig to his reviews so we could compare that factor also when considering a purchase. After all, flashaholism isn't just about the photons being put out (at least not for me anyways), the hardware has to be attractive, well-made, easy to use, and durable.

Right now, I'm really favoring my JetBeam over my Fenix, but if there was some objective measurement that tells me that Fenix's anodize will hold up much better than JetBeam's (for example) I would consider carrying the more durable and being more careful with the less durable one.

 

[greenLED]

I believe that specification is found in MS-8625-A

Aha! we can always trust JM to find this type of stuff.


I've made a similar penetrometer jig. Instead of penetrating a single spot, we'd be dragging the object under the scratching tip.

 

[Jumpmaster]

Thanks, Green!!! What a great tool for measuring abrasion resistance. That's great!

Purely as an aside, if something is claimed to be "military specification HA3", there is a MINIMUM thickness (among other attributes) that is called for in the specification for it to be called that.

Something cannot be "military specification HA3" and the thickness of the coating be less than the minimum in the spec.

JM-99

 

[sodakar]

Hrm...

I have an Arc AAA, Arc LS, SF E2e, SF L2, Fire~Fly, and a few other HAIII lights that I've EDC'd over the years, but they all show wear (you can see a little of the the shiny metal underneath around the knurled area) from my keys and what-not...

HAIII is supposed to resist this? If so, then it's a shocker to me. My house keys are pretty normal -- they're not razor sharp or anything...