How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

[cy]

hard anodizing requires a cool sulfuric acid tank with usually 150+ amps of DC current (depending upon size of rack) reason acid tank needs to cool, is to prevent acid from attacking the anodic film as it's being built-up.

mil spec hard anodize is typically 4-5 mils with 2-3 mils penatration into sub-surface.

mfg can call it what ever they want, but it doesn't make it hard anodize.

cann't speak for latest offerings from fenix. but I can state without hesitation all fenix's I have seen so far are not hard anodize. they are a high quality color anodizing. I've never ever suggested it a paint...

Surefire and ARC's have set the standard for quite some time. infinity ultra G's are another fine example of HA.

I worked at a production plating shop right out of high school for aprox. 3 years. I've personally anodized thousands of parts, with a fair number of those parts being hard anodized.

 

[greenLED]

HAIII is supposed to resist this? If so, then it's a shocker to me. My house keys are pretty normal -- they're not razor sharp or anything...

Not really- the anodizing coat is uniform along the surface, and it wears off faster where there are ridges or sharp angles. With time, friction, and abuse, even HA (or Type III anodizing, there's no such thing as HAIII... but I digress) will wear off.

 

[Jumpmaster]

mfg can call it what ever they want, but it doesn't make it hard anodize.

cann't speak for latest offerings from fenix. but I can state without hesitation all fenix's I have seen so far are not hard anodize. they are a high quality color anodizing. I've never ever suggested it a paint...

Exactly.

Cy knows his stuff and I have no reason to doubt what he says.

JM-99

 

[sodakar]

...though having said what I said, I should've clarified that the Type III anodizing on the Arc and SF lights lasts WAY longer than say, a simple paint-on AA Mini-Mag... 4-5 years of EDC'ing Arcs and SF's, and they're finally wearing off SLIGHTLY. If I had to give a percentage, I'd say 85~90%. I EDC'd a black AA Mini-Mag for a few months, and it basically looked like it was almost silver.

 

[greenLED]

...I should've clarified that the Type III anodizing on the Arc and SF lights lasts WAY longer than say, a simple paint-on AA Mini-Mag

That's probably because Mag uses Type II anodizing in their lights (except the MagCharger).

 

[D@rk Messenger]

If there was only some way cerafuse could be sealed...that would be the next giant leap in flashlight finishes, better yet, laminate aluminum with a synthetic sapphire coating, now THAT would be sweet, if it were possible. Sadly, the only HA objects I own are a fenix and some frying pans, all of which are scratched up (namely the fenix ).

 

[Bullseye00]

A hard anodize is not meant to render something indestructible, just to give it a durable finish meant to hold up to a reasonable level of wear and tear. And holding a hard, very sharp object against the finish and scratching really hard isn't the kind of wear and tear you're going to get in a pocket full of dull to semi-sharp object just rattling around.(Who carries really sharp things in their pocket?) So that's interesting to know, especially to compare the finish of different brands, product lines, or old vs new product. But they aren't very "real life" answers.

 

[sodakar]

That's probably because Mag uses Type II anodizing in their lights (except the MagCharger).

Well... that would most certainly justify all the fuss over Type III. I guess I've gotten spoiled with Arcs and SureFires all coming with it...!

 

[rwolff]

never mind HAIII, I want whatever they they put on drill bits that make them last 10 times longer, you know the gold coating.:naughty:

regards.

That's titanium nitride. It's also used on the "loonie" (Canadian dollar coin), and its appearance is significantly degraded by normal pocket wear.

 

[yaesumofo]

I have a little experience in this area. Of the lights that I have owned over the years the I favor the finish of the ARC LS series of lights. The HAIII finish on the ARC's really is amazing. ARC HA III being somewhat thicker than "normal" type III finish. The finish the ARC LS has is a smooth and extremely durable finish and has a wonderful feel. The ARC AAA Premium light that I have on my key chain (several years now) is quite beat up but still holds about 80% of the finish.

My ARC LS flashlights have held up really well. I consider the older arc LS finish to be a gold standard of type III finishes on flashlights.
I also believe that the type III finish which is applied to the McLuxIII series of lights is a very good example of a type III on a flashlight.

For a taste of what goes into a good finish go here:
http://www.fortwayneanodizing.com/01_Pages/aluminum-anodizing.htm

The basics of aluminum hard coat TYPE II and III finishes are described here.

TYPE III finishes do wear. They are very durable but they do wear. There is no avoiding that. Even the most robust of finishes will wear especially on hard edges.
Higher quality flashlights are machined so that the vast majority of hard edges are removed, Parts are often tumbled in media to smooth edges as well.

The bottom line here is that even the best finish will wear when on a key chain. There is no escaping this.
The property we are looking for here is MAR RESISTANCE. A good example of a mar resistant finish is Teflon. A flashlight coated in Teflon may fair well on a key chain. The problem with this is that any flashlight coated in Teflon may be slippery and hard to grip.

I have seen type III finishes in colors other than black and natural/green. Colors like GOLD and RED and others are possible.
I believe that some people have different ideas about what is TYPE III anodizing. I am of the opinion that there is a WIDE range of quality. Some good some not so good. I also believe that some lights are called TYPE III or HA III when maybe they aren't.
Some of the good ones are ARC, JIL, McLux, SureFire,TnC, KI. There are many parts and aftermarket accessories which have been made by CPF'rs which have great finishes.
I will not name names of the "Bad ones" .

All finishes good and bad will wear when used on a EDC use key chain. The speed at which the finish deteriorates is the determining factor here.
A good test? Simply put a key chain flashlight on your key chain. Forget about it for a week or two then have a look. If the wear is light or not existent then the finish is most likely a type III high quality finish. If there is significant wear then the finish is most likely a non type III. The latter has shown itself on a number of occasions with lights that call themselves HA III. I will not reveal which lights because I have no desire to cause a HAIII WAR. The simple idea of quality vs crap the quality will win in the long run.
Some finishes are simply better than others.




Yaesumofo

 

[Lurveleven]

A good test? Simply put a key chain flashlight on your key chain. Forget about it for a week or two then have a look. If the wear is light or not existent then the finish is most likely a type III high quality finish. If there is significant wear then the finish is most likely a non type III. The latter has shown itself on a number of occasions with lights that call themselves HA III.

I got a Leatherman Squirt a coule of weeks ago, that I have on my key chain with my Exolion, the Squirt shows no sign of wear yet while the Exolion (which is bare Titanium) looks like it has been through a war. I thought the Squirt would have Type II anodice since it is blue.

Sigbjoern

 

[phatalbert]

:

Maybe someone could come up with some kind of a rig consisting of a sharp point (carbide?) and a mechanism to vary pressure as it drags across a surface, and a gauge to measure what it takes to get through the anodize.

That would be awesome! CPF has a number of excellent runtime/brightness testers, reviewers, and modders... a HA Type III testing system would really complete the review process. :naughty:

 

[cy]

there's several tests used to determind HA quality. but not usually available to normal end user.
That's why the knife scratch test is still the "cpf gold standard".

unfortunately none are non-destructive, if you don't have access to part immediately before running through anodize tanks.
one can simply measure part for 1-2 mil increase in size. unmasked threads need to be machined slightly undersize to compensate.

Taber abrasion test puts a set load for thousands of cycles. to see how much wear results in mils.

salt spray tests see how long anodic film will hold up under harsh conditions.

using a quality knife in 59-61 rockwell range for penatration test to verify surface. Hard anodize is in 65-70 range, so knife should bounce off. this test doesn't apply for sharp edges.

 

[Doug]

Why would you remove the anodizing?

I did not see a picture of Carrot's L1P ... where?

That's been my experience with my ArcAAA's as well. And to use CY's words Arc and SF are the "golden standard" when it comes to HA. Arc's have the toughest anodizing I've had to remove.

Carrot, is that pic of your Fenix L1P one of the "old" HA or the newer ones? Cuz it looks :green:

 

[Jumpmaster]

Why would you remove the anodizing?

Some folks just like the look better...this one hadn't been polished yet, but...

Also, folks often strip the ano to prep for powdercoating or plating.

JM-99

 

[mchlwise]

As an addition to my contention that Fenix uses true HAIII coating (at least on it's newer models):

I got an E1 over a week ago and put it on my keyring immediately. With a week's normal keychain use, including the occasional smack against the metal door handle as I turn the key to lock the office, I just carefully examined the E1, and there's not a single mark on it.

:rock:

 

[ResQTech]

I've had my ARC-LS on my keychain for 3 or 4 years. The good thing about the ARC finish is it's smooth so it won't chew up your keys or your pockets. The bulk of the light shows no signs of wear at all. The bezel has a few dents not from normal wear, but from being dropped on to hard surfaces. The weakest point as mentioned earlier is the hole where the split ring attaches. You should be able to see from the following pics:

 

[Doug]

Eric, at the place where the keyring touches the keyring attachment point, looks like the split in the keyring is the cause of the wear and tear, perhaps there is another piece of material that can be used for this connection to avoid this friction/corrosion...... Hmm?

Good pics BTW...... thanks!

 

[easilyled]

:lolsign:

No you are not wrong.

I suppose there are degrees of hardness though.

I have an Alu-bronze CR2 ion as my keychain light and that REALLY
is a hard material - it doesn't seem to mark up at all.

Even if it did, it could probably be finely sanded and polished, but this
hasn't been necessary.

To my mind hard raw metals make better key-chain lights than even the best
HA3 for this reason.

I just jammed an ice pick into mine as hard as I could, and it left a mark.

/sarcasm



Seriously: how well can one expect true HAIII to hold up, and how much is it supposed to withstand? As an earlier poster mentioned, no matter how "true" the HAIII is, it's really just a thin film over a soft metal, and when hit, scraped, poked, or scratched hard enough, it's going to leave a mark - if nothing else from failure and deformation of the soft aluminum underneath. HAIII doesn't turn aluminum into Tungsten or something unscratchable, and when attacked hard enough, it will scratch.

Or am I wrong?

 

[mudman cj]

That's titanium nitride. It's also used on the "loonie" (Canadian dollar coin), and its appearance is significantly degraded by normal pocket wear.

Titranium nitride works great when it is applied properly to the right base metal. Some equipment I use at work is TiN coated to resist wearing against a ceramic powder that is used to polish glass. This coating is on a stainless steel, probably a hardened stainless like 440c. These surfaces have taken a beating and still look great.

Ideal base metals for nitridization include cemented carbides, air hardening tool steels, high speed steels, and some stainless steels. I would like to see if a 440c stainless steel could be hardened and then titanium nitride coated. That might just make for the ultimate in scratch resistance and rust resistance in the event of a coating breach, provided that application of the TiN would not affect the hardness of the base metal too much (TiN application can require as much as 800F, and that can begin to anneal some metals).

Similar to rwolff's example of the Canadian dollar coin, putting TiN on aluminum would not work well because the TiN layer is typically only 0.0002" to 0.0008" thick and is at the mercy of the base metal when it comes to deformation.

I have also heard of a new coating called diamond chrome that is supposed to have advantages over TiN. I would love to see someone have a light coated with that!