If unprotected 18650 batteries are dangerous, why are they on sale ?

[csshih]

with safe practices....

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/246699

 

[Magic Matt]

Isn't the protection to prevent overcharging? In which case it is not needed, unless I am mistaken.

You're telling me some people wont try and put primary CR123 cells into a charger? Ohhh, I think they will....

Remember, some people try and recharge alkalines in their NiMH chargers. The world is full of idiots who will try to sue you for their own stupidity. Whilst I agree that people that do stupid things should take responsibility for the consequences, the fact is the world doesn't work that way, and I don't want to see Lithium cells etc. being banned because of knee-jerk reactions to idiots who sue shoe manufacturers if the laces snap and ththeir trainers fall off.

It's not about protecting the idiots so much as it is about protecting the manufacturers from the legal action taken by the idiots afterwards.

...lithium ion polymer batteries...
...probably one of the more unstable forms of Li-Ion cells

I didn't realise they were totally unprotected. That's nasty.

 

[march.brown]

You're telling me some people wont try and put primary CR123 cells into a charger? Ohhh, I think they will....

Remember, some people try and recharge alkalines in their NiMH chargers. The world is full of idiots who will try to sue you for their own stupidity. Whilst I agree that people that do stupid things should take responsibility for the consequences, the fact is the world doesn't work that way, and I don't want to see Lithium cells etc. being banned because of knee-jerk reactions to idiots who sue shoe manufacturers if the laces snap and ththeir trainers fall off.

It's not about protecting the idiots so much as it is about protecting the manufacturers from the legal action taken by the idiots afterwards.

I didn't realise they were totally unprotected. That's nasty.

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I just hope the UK Government don't find out about dangerous flashlight batteries because they would be banned.

I used to do a lot of competitive full-bore and small-bore pistol shooting and after the Dunblane tragedy, because of one lunatic man, everyone in the UK had to hand in their handguns to be destroyed ... I only lost a few thousand pounds, because of that lunatic with a Firearms Certificate, but many people in Dunblane lost their children ... Batteries, like firearms, are not dangerous if they are treated with respect.

If anyone dies due to batteries exploding, there is no telling what the UK Government would do ... Let's keep all torch users informed about these cells and perhaps we can put off the evil day when the UK Government clamps down on imports.

In the case of a catastrophic failure and the resulting house fire, how do we explain to our Insurers that it was due to a battery that we knew was a possible danger ?
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[Kestrel]

it amazes me that we can legally pump gasoline into our vehicles

Not in Oregon we can't - that's against the law. It's the job of our Professional Service Station Attendants...

 

[Larbo]

I think the more important question is why would anyone buy them?? This doesnt look to me like something to scrimp on.:thinking:

 

[spencer]

I would buy them if I had a device that had protection built into it. Why burn money on protection when you already have it?

 

[march.brown]

I would buy them if I had a device that had protection built into it. Why burn money on protection when you already have it?

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It seems that charging is the source of possible dangers on these cells ... More so than using them in a single cell torch.

I suppose that even if the charger had all the necessary protection circuits incorporated, there is always the possibility that they could someday fail ... This could be age related or just component failure ... It would be then that the cells protection would/could save the day.

Of course if you didn't realise that the chargers circuits had failed and then the batteries protection failed .... Then what.

I know that you can't hope to solve problems by putting protection circuits into everything, so it is up to us to monitor the voltages and if necessary the charging current ... These are self-imposed safety precautions to ensure that we stay within the operating parameters of these cells.

I have two unprotected 18650 cells which I use (with a bit of common sense) and this does not worry me at all now ... I would not consider using them in multi-cell 18650 torches though ... Since I will only be using them in a single cell torch, there are no worries.
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[Fenki]

As I'm building RC models too, i'm quite used to handle unprotected cells and packs.
Fro sure there is a lot of "promotion" about how dangerous those unprotected cells are. But as a think, when reading such stories, most of those people didn't knew what they were handling.

It's more like a car: you hve to know the basics - and most important: you have to learn how to handle!
So properly treated LiIon or LiPoly cells are not really dangerous if treated right. I don't know one colleague which LiPo battery exploded. Even after heavy crashes of some planes, there was no explosion. But knowing about the LiIon batteries, a visually damaged battery is either properly disposed or (depending on the damage) carefully recharged.

For my flashlights I mostly use unprotected cells from old laptop batteries. So during the first one or two charges, I watch the temperature and if suspect, meassure the voltage. So I do also with new cells or if I buy a new charger during the first run. Later you have to decide if you trust all the stuff or don't trust the 5$ charger :thinking:

BTW: A protection circuit normally protects against overcharging, over discharging and short circuit.
The reason I prefere unprotected cells in a flashlight is that it gets dimmer when the battery drops to some level of discharge (but still not discharged too low to recharge ). but a protected cell makes you standing in the dark within a second...

So just don't read and believe every story about an exploded LiIon but rather read some articles about the correct handlig. Then you'll be happy, your battery will be happy and your flashlight wil be bright :twothumbs

 

[Jay R]

You're telling me some people wont try and put primary CR123 cells into a charger? Ohhh, I think they will....

What, like this ?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/250219

 

[LeifUK]

Car are dangerous.

Mountain bikes are dangerous.

Matches are dangerous.

Fireworks are dangerous.

Angle grinders are dangerous.

But yet they are all still on sale.

BUT they are all only dangerous if they are improperly used - the same applies to 18650's - if they are used properly they are almost perfectly safe - if misused then they are going to bite you in the ***.

People need to take some personal responsibilty over the products they are using. You can't legislate for stupidity - think of it as natural selection.

These are not valid analogies. Anyone knows that pressing an angle grinder against someones face is going to result in some serious damage. Fireworks are on sale, but in the UK their sale is restricted, and there are laws relating to their use. And of course cars and bikes can be dangerous. That is why there is a driving licence, and strict laws on vehicles and their drivers. Few people know the dangers of unprotected cells, and that even charging them may be risky.

"the same applies to 18650's - if they are used properly they are almost perfectly safe"

That is the key point in a nutshell. And the key question is how are you going to ensure that people use them properly?

Anyone can purchase unregulated cells from overseas sites (for which read China) and as far as I know there is no legal regulation, and no attempt at educating users. I have no idea on the situation in the UK/Europe and North America. Most people on seeing rechargeable LiIon batteries/cells would probably assume that are the same as normal batteries, and just set them to charge overnight. Hey, they're rechargeables right? I know I would have done had I not come across this forum. So in my opinion it should be legal to sell these things, but there must be reasonable measures to ensure that users are aware of the correct use, and the dangers of incorrect use. (A large warning on the packet and a brief user guide for example.)

 

[LeifUK]

You're telling me some people wont try and put primary CR123 cells into a charger? Ohhh, I think they will....

Such people would be doing us a service were they to remove themselves from the gene pool. More seriously, there is a limit to how much you can make electronic goods completely safe.

 

[Linger]

It is very difficult to outlaw ignorance.

 

[march.brown]

Unfortunately you can't force people to read the small print and you can't force them to buy a reliable battery charger or protected cells ... Nor can you insist that they buy a DVM just to check the battery voltage ... It is only a torch battery in their eyes and they will possibly be conversant with NiMh cells and chargers.

After all, people still smoke cigarettes and the packets have a large warning label attatched ... If they take no notice of a big label, then they will ignore the tiny printing on a battery.

We can only try to make more people aware of the possibility (not the probability) of danger.

I think that the majority of Flashlight users will be using the readily available AAA , AA , C and D cells in their Ever-Ready plastic torches, or if they are really keen they will be into Maglites ... It seems that if they progress above these torches then they will have checked out CPF or other similar sites on the internet ... If they read a few relevant threads then they will no doubt be aware of the possibility of a problem ... They will then make their own minds up which type of batteries to use based on this information.
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[LuxLuthor]

Ahh! I wanted to be the first one to answer something like this! Well said. If we took away everything that anybody found "dangerous" I'd rather just crawl into a dark cave and die. In all honest, it amazes me that we can legally pump gasoline into our vehicles, drive around thousands of other vehicles with tanks of the stuff (at high-speed, no less!) and then park tanks of this stuff in our attached garages. And we don't even give it a second thought. But boy... if a battery catches on fire, watch out!

Your overall point is valid, but when items like gasoline, flammable alcohol, or fireworks FIRST came on the market, there was a strong promotion and awareness of their danger. Same with cars, matches, power tools, and electric sockets. People as a norm knew up front to use some level of appropriate caution.

Given your stature here, I continue to be amazed at such comments given that the bulk of the warning threads/posts are because so many people were not told about any dangers from Lithium batteries. It came as a total shock when people started having their laptops spontaneously exploding and burning out of control. Likewise, as more hot metal fire incidents occurred on aircraft, it was a big surprise to airline companies and government regulators. The laptop Lithium Ion issue alone has led to tens (possibly hundreds ?) of millions of recalled battery packs at great expense to everyone involved.

Again, the point of all these threads mostly comes from people still learning that when their electronics batteries were switched from alkaline, NiMH, NiCad, LA to various types of Lithium batteries, they had no idea anything could go wrong. People were in a habit of leaving NiCad & NiMH "parked" in their charger bays, so it was good to go when you picked it up. 98% of the users don't even know how to properly charge and condition Nickel rechargeable cells, but then they carry forward the same battery habits to a whole new Lithium type of cell.

When AW and others started selling unprotected Li-Ions, and before that with primary a123 lithium cells (including made by surefire), there were not any warnings given to alert the consumer that they need to learn a whole new way to properly use and care for these cells. The problem increased dramatically as cheap Chinese batteries with poor quality control began flooding the market. I would guess that the majority of people still buy the cheapest brands, mix different primary cell brands, and have no idea about checking for congruity of voltages in a multi-cell (perhaps direct drive, unregulated) application.

There are threads all over this and other forums where people using Lithium batteries had no idea what could go wrong if poor quality or abuse of cells occurred. People NEVER had any awareness with their NiMH or NiCAD batteries that extended charging could lead to explosive 2,000°F fires with extremely toxic fumes, because that was a new issue only related to Lithium batteries.

There are tons of new members joining CPF regularly, and that make posts now illustrating that they don't yet understand that Lithium cells have unique concerns. I would bet that most have no idea that these lithium battery fires are virtually unable to be extinguised with conventional fire suppressant methods, nor that the traditional fire-fighting method of dousing with water makes these lithium fires worse.

It was only a few years ago that AW (and others) added adequate warnings to their sales threads, as more and more Lithium fires were documented. There were unsafe lithium ion chargers that were being promoted and sold at CPF (and still are sold elsewhere) that do not have termination of charging at 4.2V, and people (like me) just assumed these were safe. They were not.

Once it is clear that the mainstream public is knowledgeable of certain Lithium chemistry batteries having unique risks and dangers, then fine....these threads can drop away. Until that time, these threads continue to serve an important public education, and IMHO, should not be ridiculed.

 

[spencer]

extended charging could lead to explosive 2,000°F fires with extremely toxic fumes

Sounds like a good idea to try sometime. Maybe away from town and other people.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Be my guest spencer. :devil:

No sooner did I finish editing my post above, went and read this thread which illustrated what I was trying to say contemporaneously.

 

[Magic Matt]

What, like this ?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/250219

Your overall point is valid, but when items like gasoline, flammable alcohol, or fireworks FIRST came on the market, there was a strong promotion and awareness of their danger...

... It came as a total shock when people started having their laptops spontaneously exploding and burning out of control. Likewise, as more hot metal fire incidents occurred on aircraft, it was a big surprise to airline companies and government regulators.

You know what scares me most about that is not that Joe Public were unaware (after all, ignorance is presumed), but that in order for those incidents to have occured in such high numbers, the manufacturers must have been unaware of the dangers and not taken the right precautions.

The reason I dislike the ignorance factor is that if somebody blows themselves up, then that's their own fault... when that person's ignorance blows somebody else up, then you have to ask whether the risk could be reduced. If ALL lithium cells, including primaries, were protected for example, would there be any incidents where a family is put at risk because of a simple mistake - to me that makes it worth it.

I must admit I still don't understand why anyone would want unprotected cells. To my mind it just defies logic; I would rather have myself and my family protected against the consequences of simple mistakes, or at least a greatly reduced risk.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Magic Matt,

Some people work in areas where a flashlight is critical to their safety. When entering these areas an effort is made to keep things as simple as possible. Usually, the preference is to use primary cells, but sometimes the job is more involved and a rechargeable cell is an option.

If I were entering one of these areas and had to choose a flashlight with a protected Li-Ion cell in it, or one with a bare cell, I would immediately, and without hesitation, choose the light with the bare cell.

Why? Because protection circuits are fragile and are one more thing that has the possibility of going wrong. Also, the protection circuit will limit the discharge, and in the unlikely event of an emergency, I would prefer to have the option of destroying the cell by over discharging and having some extra light available to me. I fully understand, and expect to recycle the cell at the end of the emergency. This is the "cost" of over discharging the cell.

I happen to have a very good understanding of Li-Ion chemistry. When I break the rules, I fully expect to recycle the cell and pay the price of replacing it. The "value" to me is reliability in rough service. Cells are cheap and if I happen to ruin a couple of them, that's just the way it goes.

Now for casual or fun use, or for those who due to finanical reasons are tempted to try to revive an over discharged cell rather than to do the safe thing and recycle it, then I would agree that protected cells make more sense.

Tom

 

[march.brown]

Hello Magic Matt,

Some people work in areas where a flashlight is critical to their safety. When entering these areas an effort is made to keep things as simple as possible. Usually, the preference is to use primary cells, but sometimes the job is more involved and a rechargeable cell is an option.

If I were entering one of these areas and had to choose a flashlight with a protected Li-Ion cell in it, or one with a bare cell, I would immediately, and without hesitation, choose the light with the bare cell.

Why? Because protection circuits are fragile and are one more thing that has the possibility of going wrong. Also, the protection circuit will limit the discharge, and in the unlikely event of an emergency, I would prefer to have the option of destroying the cell by over discharging and having some extra light available to me. I fully understand, and expect to recycle the cell at the end of the emergency. This is the "cost" of over discharging the cell.

I happen to have a very good understanding of Li-Ion chemistry. When I break the rules, I fully expect to recycle the cell and pay the price of replacing it. The "value" to me is reliability in rough service. Cells are cheap and if I happen to ruin a couple of them, that's just the way it goes.

Now for casual or fun use, or for those who due to finanical reasons are tempted to try to revive an over discharged cell rather than to do the safe thing and recycle it, then I would agree that protected cells make more sense.

Tom

What type of torch is allowed in the Petro-chemical industry ?
I was told that a torch that can be used under water would be acceptable since there is less chance of a spark or naked flame ... I don't know what batteries they allow though.
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[Mr Happy]

What type of torch is allowed in the Petro-chemical industry ?
I was told that a torch that can be used under water would be acceptable since there is less chance of a spark or naked flame ... I don't know what batteries they allow though.
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"Petrochemical industry" is a very broad term. The safety situation is more nuanced than that as you can see here: http://www.energizerlightingproduct...ty-approvals-testing/Pages/ansistandards.aspx

The short answer is that the best kind of device is an "intrinsically safe" one, which means that it cannot produce a spark with enough energy to ignite any flammable gases. Often that means LED lights.