If unprotected 18650 batteries are dangerous, why are they on sale ?

Magic Matt

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...protection circuits are fragile and are one more thing that has the possibility of going wrong.

Thank you for the explanation. How fragile are we talking? Inside a flashlight, surely they're fairly well protected from being pierced or crushed so I guess we're only looking at shock...?


@Mr Happy - I will resist the temptation to make comments about gas stations, mobile phones and nylon sweaters... ;)
 

LuxLuthor

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You know what scares me most about that is not that Joe Public were unaware (after all, ignorance is presumed), but that in order for those incidents to have occured in such high numbers, the manufacturers must have been unaware of the dangers and not taken the right precautions.

The reason I dislike the ignorance factor is that if somebody blows themselves up, then that's their own fault... when that person's ignorance blows somebody else up, then you have to ask whether the risk could be reduced. If ALL lithium cells, including primaries, were protected for example, would there be any incidents where a family is put at risk because of a simple mistake - to me that makes it worth it.
No, precautions were taken...but once China started cranking out cheap, low quality batteries the protection designs did not anticipate that curveball. In addition, no matter what product you are designing, Murphy's Law will eventually strike.

I have a slightly different take, and not 100% sure what you meant with "the ignorance factor." If and when people have been made aware of a possible danger, then they can make informed choices and be responsible for themselves. Part of my previous post is that people brought their primitive awareness from previous NiCad/NiMH/Alkaline/Lead Acid/etc. to Lithium, and were not made aware that these are entirely different animals.

It's one thing to be told that you should not mix a123 primary cells of different brands and/or charge voltage states....and then to be told that if you don't follow this rule you could have a severe high pressure explosion, smoke, and fire. People were not made aware of Lithium = gasoline type of potential risk.

Once you get out into activities that can harm other people, then you need government enforced laws and consequences to stop these actions...and indeed there are now many new restrictions regarding transportation and storage of Lithium batteries. You are also seeing moves to safe Lithium chemistries as another viable strategy to resolve the downsides, but keep the high density energy storage solution.

I must admit I still don't understand why anyone would want unprotected cells. To my mind it just defies logic; I would rather have myself and my family protected against the consequences of simple mistakes, or at least a greatly reduced risk.
Initially, all that were available were unprotected Li-Ion cells, so a number of us used them because of their advantages. In general, Lithium Ion cells have not been distributed or sold retail to the general public, with the exception of Chinese/Hong Kong sources. All other uses (laptops, cell phones, etc.) have protection circuits built into the packs.

I was not aware of the significant risks, and proper care of unprotected Lithium Ion cells for quite a while, until seeing the PC Pitstop video demonstrating the explosion and fire with a laptop battery.

As Tom said, there are a few performance benefits that the protection circuit intentionally limits. Some of us have made an educated choice with much more intense monitoring in continuing to use unprotected Lithium Cobalt cells. I don't recommend that anyone use them however.

You see threads of people harvesting unprotected Lithium Cobalt cells from laptop batteries they buy cheaply on EBay. They see it as a wonderful cost savings strategy. Some of them likely are not fully aware of the potential risks/downsides, but that's up to them now.

Edit: Fragile mainly involves dropping the cell and the protection circuit or a weld breaks. There is also very little insultation between contact strip from positive end and negative battery can underneath. See photos here. It is irrelevant to say LED gives any benefits when it comes to an exploding lithium battery with smoke and/or fire, since an overcharged cell, reverse charge, internal short leading to most documented flashlight lithium battery explosions on this forum have been in LED lights. Other than laptops, and damaged cells (i.e. when a radio controlled plane crashes), most rechargeable Lithium Cobalt Ion battery explosions/fires come from improper charging (i.e. overcharging).
 
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Mr Happy

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It is irrelevant to say LED gives any benefits when it comes to an exploding lithium battery...
I'm not sure whether this comment is addressed to my post above? That post was off to one side of the main thread and was referring to the use of flashlights that might be certified safe to use in an environment where there is an explosion hazard due to the presence of flammable gases. Such lights must have a lack of ignition sources, and a hot incandescent filament is a clear ignition source if the bulb should break—hence the reference to LED lights in that context. But again, the topic is off to one side and lithium ion power sources are neither here nor there in that discussion. It's not trying to say there is any inherent safety from LED in this discussion.
 

old4570

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Goodness gracious me !

Its not the battery thats dangerous - people are dangerous .
How safe would this world be without people ?
Think about it !
:oops:
 

Apollo Cree

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I got a call from a friend who's not normally an idiot.

His cell phone battery was pregnant but still worked. It had swelled up to the point where the cover wouldn't fit on the back of the cell phone. I had to tell him about 10 times over an hour that he needed to stop using it.

He kept saying things like "is it most dangerous when charging? How about when I use it with the charger plugged in? How much damage is it likely to do? etc."

I finally told him to think of taking the contents of a car battery and dump a few tablespoons into his cell phone. He decided to take the battery out of the cell phone and not use it until he got a replacement. Or at least tell me he was going to quit using it so I'd stop nagging him.
 

LuxLuthor

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I'm not sure whether this comment is addressed to my post above? That post was off to one side of the main thread and was referring to the use of flashlights that might be certified safe to use in an environment where there is an explosion hazard due to the presence of flammable gases. Such lights must have a lack of ignition sources, and a hot incandescent filament is a clear ignition source if the bulb should break—hence the reference to LED lights in that context. But again, the topic is off to one side and lithium ion power sources are neither here nor there in that discussion. It's not trying to say there is any inherent safety from LED in this discussion.

Oh sorry then. I didn't realize you were referring only to an ignition source. I thought your intent was related to generally lower amp output/charging input requirements being less of a trigger for Lithium Cobalt cells as a suggestion that the risk is minimized with LED.

Thanks for clarifying. :thumbsup:
 

Magic Matt

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I'm learning lots! :D

I have a slightly different take, and not 100% sure what you meant with "the ignorance factor." If and when people have been made aware of a possible danger, then they can make informed choices and be responsible for themselves. Part of my previous post is that people brought their primitive awareness from previous NiCad/NiMH/Alkaline/Lead Acid/etc. to Lithium, and were not made aware that these are entirely different animals.

I think we're talking off the same page here - the ignorance factor to me is where people will do something and are completely oblivious of a distinction that needs to be made. A good example of this is when you ask a person in the street to tell you how you handle batteries - they will willingly not only mix brands and used with unused cells, but they would happily mix alkaline with lithium AAs; for most, they go through the 'batteries floating around in the drawer' trying cells to 'find the ones that work' - in they go! If they knew the dangers of doing that, I'm sure most wouldn't do it.

Case in point - I had to re-educate my mum about a month ago, after I opened the wireless computer mouse that she had been putting on the charger, and found one NiCd and one Zinc Chloride in it. :oops:

Seems to me there could be a use for all the knackered Lithium cells. Wire one in parallel with a freshly charged Li-Ion and a switch to short circuit, then sell them as grenades to the military. :whistle:

Perhaps unprotected cells should carry warnings like cigarette packets - I know we joke that people ignore them but there is a crucial factor in that - people don't pretend they don't know the risks, they make an informed decision to ignore the risks - I believe most people currently don't even think there is a risk.
 

recDNA

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Your overall point is valid, but when items like gasoline, flammable alcohol, or fireworks FIRST came on the market, there was a strong promotion and awareness of their danger. Same with cars, matches, power tools, and electric sockets. People as a norm knew up front to use some level of appropriate caution.

Given your stature here, I continue to be amazed at such comments given that the bulk of the warning threads/posts are because so many people were not told about any dangers from Lithium batteries. It came as a total shock when people started having their laptops spontaneously exploding and burning out of control. Likewise, as more hot metal fire incidents occurred on aircraft, it was a big surprise to airline companies and government regulators. The laptop Lithium Ion issue alone has led to tens (possibly hundreds ?) of millions of recalled battery packs at great expense to everyone involved.

Again, the point of all these threads mostly comes from people still learning that when their electronics batteries were switched from alkaline, NiMH, NiCad, LA to various types of Lithium batteries, they had no idea anything could go wrong. People were in a habit of leaving NiCad & NiMH "parked" in their charger bays, so it was good to go when you picked it up. 98% of the users don't even know how to properly charge and condition Nickel rechargeable cells, but then they carry forward the same battery habits to a whole new Lithium type of cell.

When AW and others started selling unprotected Li-Ions, and before that with primary a123 lithium cells (including made by surefire), there were not any warnings given to alert the consumer that they need to learn a whole new way to properly use and care for these cells. The problem increased dramatically as cheap Chinese batteries with poor quality control began flooding the market. I would guess that the majority of people still buy the cheapest brands, mix different primary cell brands, and have no idea about checking for congruity of voltages in a multi-cell (perhaps direct drive, unregulated) application.

There are threads all over this and other forums where people using Lithium batteries had no idea what could go wrong if poor quality or abuse of cells occurred. People NEVER had any awareness with their NiMH or NiCAD batteries that extended charging could lead to explosive 2,000°F fires with extremely toxic fumes, because that was a new issue only related to Lithium batteries.

There are tons of new members joining CPF regularly, and that make posts now illustrating that they don't yet understand that Lithium cells have unique concerns. I would bet that most have no idea that these lithium battery fires are virtually unable to be extinguised with conventional fire suppressant methods, nor that the traditional fire-fighting method of dousing with water makes these lithium fires worse.

It was only a few years ago that AW (and others) added adequate warnings to their sales threads, as more and more Lithium fires were documented. There were unsafe lithium ion chargers that were being promoted and sold at CPF (and still are sold elsewhere) that do not have termination of charging at 4.2V, and people (like me) just assumed these were safe. They were not.

Once it is clear that the mainstream public is knowledgeable of certain Lithium chemistry batteries having unique risks and dangers, then fine....these threads can drop away. Until that time, these threads continue to serve an important public education, and IMHO, should not be ridiculed.


That begs the question - in event of a lithium fire what should be used to extinguish it? Is there a safe type of fire extinguisher or a bucket of sand or what?
 

TooManyGizmos

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Concerning the thread topic .......

If unprotected 18650 batteries are dangerous, why are they on sale ?


After 49 replies ... I hope it's obvious now ...

The batteries are NOT dangerous ... the users are !


To recDNA ,
Yes ... if on FIRE ... Sand or dirt over it would be best extinguisher - but you have to plan ahead .

.
 
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recDNA

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I don't own any Li Ion so I hope that comment about dangerous users isn't aimed at me for asking the best way to put out the fire when I buy some.
Strangely, when I googled the topic the very well know battery manufacturer website said (in the event of a Li Ion charging fire) to flood the area with water - then mentioned how H2 gas may result??? I would think that would be very, VERY bad. Finally it did mention sand and CO2 fire extinguisher use toward the end.
 

march.brown

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In view of the exceptionally high temperatures involved (well over 1000 degrees apparently), and the volume of poisonous fumes emitted, I think that it would be better to walk quickly away from the source of the problem.

Before I retired (16 years ago) we had to undergo a one day course each year on Health & Safety ... This included actually using several types of fire extinguishers on live fires ... None of the fires were remotely near to the temperatures given for these Li-Ion fires ... Where these chemicals and metals are involved, just move away ... Possibly the modern equivalent of an asbestos blanket would be the best bet ... Throw it over the fire and move out of the way ... This would at least reduce the flame burst.

Unfortunately, removing the supply to the charger will not stop the imminent explosion once thermal runaway commences ... If you choose to carry the offending item outside, be aware that if it explodes whilst you are carrying it, the temperatures are way higher than World War Two flame throwers which were petroleum based... If it happens to be a Laptop power pack, please remember that there are other cells just waiting to explode as they are physically tied to the burning one.

Having seen the distance that the flames were projected (on the film), you would need to be at the very least ten feet away as the flame burst was at least six feet ... The "Fireproof blanket" would reduce the risk of igniting nearby flammable objects.

Having said this, I will still be using and charging my unprotected 18650 cells ... I will be checking the open circuit cell voltages religiously during the charging cycle ... I will not be leaving them for hours on end as I do with my NiMh cells.

.
 

TooManyGizmos

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recDNA ,

If you mean my comment ... NO ... it certainly was not directed at you .

It was just a general comment about this thread topic after 49 replies and still going , like the bunny.
 

march.brown

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I don't own any Li Ion so I hope that comment about dangerous users isn't aimed at me for asking the best way to put out the fire when I buy some.
Strangely, when I googled the topic the very well know battery manufacturer website said (in the event of a Li Ion charging fire) to flood the area with water - then mentioned how H2 gas may result??? I would think that would be very, VERY bad. Finally it did mention sand and CO2 fire extinguisher use toward the end.
.
I wouldn't want to use a Carbon Dioxide extinguisher in a closed environment such as a small room ... From what I've read, water is not a good thing to use ... Perhaps someone with a knowledge of chemistry would be better versed in these things ... Perhaps also someone from the Fire Service/Department already has information on this since there has been a lot of publicity about Laptop fires.
.
 

TooManyGizmos

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I would guess a Class B or C ... dry powder extinguisher . (not a liquid)
The ones that say "For electrical fires" .

Choose a safe place to charge your batteries ......
An exterior location, away from flammables, not in your living quarters, certainly not your bedroom.
A closed metal tool box is a good idea to contain accidents .
.
 
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rmteo

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An important factor when using Li-Ion cells is a proper charger. I use a hobby charger as it has many important safety features built-in that are often absent in the type chargers used by flashlight people. I have/use 24x 16340 and 16x 18650 cells (all unprotected) that I charge at 1C rate and I have not had more than a barely perceptible rise in cell temperature - if at all - during charging. That said, if it makes you more comfortable, get one of these (<$8) here http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4364

a_68y.jpg

Protect your family and home from the hazard of lipo charging. This lipo-guard is a fireproof bag, designed to stop and contain the fire caused by incorrectly or poorly functioning lipos, especially during charging. This pack is the jumbo size. It is 25x33cm. The LP-Guard is made from a fibreglass woven fabric. Similar to fireproof suits worn by firefighters.
 
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recDNA

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recDNA ,

If you mean my comment ... NO ... it certainly was not directed at you .

It was just a general comment about this thread topic after 49 replies and still going , like the bunny.

Overly sensitive on my part.
 

TooManyGizmos

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Not really . I can see that I should have worded it differently ... so I did.

I went back and edited so it didn't appear directed at you.
 
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recDNA

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I would guess a Class B or C ... dry powder extinguisher . (not a liquid)
The ones that say "For electrical fires" .

Choose a safe place to charge your batteries ......
An exterior location, away from flammables, not in your living quarters, certainly not your bedroom.
A closed metal tool box is a good idea to contain accidents .
.

Thanks. I was thinking of my garage but it is below freezing at this time of year so it will have to be inside the house. I've got a wooden desk in the basement with a 1/4 inch solid glass top. I was thinking there. I mean I could do it inside my gun safe (1.25 cubic feet inside it guns taken out of course) with the top open enough for the wire too but if charging is out of sight I'm afraid it could slip my mind. I'm using protected cells in a charger that isn't supposed to overcharge so isn't using the safe overkill? If the cells vent I'm screwed no matter what.

Any idea of approximately how long it takes to charge a AW 2600P from 3.7 volts up to 4.2 using a WF139 charger?
 
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