Is Armytek a gamble?

[Tachead]

Personal preference is never debatable as whatever works for the individual. I like the lego ability of the heads. A Prime A1/C1/2A can run 1xAA, 1X16340,1X18650,1X18350, 1XCR123 (never tested CR123 in the A2 head) 2XAA etc etc etc. So long as the voltage falls below the top line it will run all really really well. For example a C1 head seems to run 1XAA just as well compared to an A1 head and the opposite is also true. More info for the readers as odds are you know. Same for the Prime tails. All work with each other. Lego was also a pro of 4/7 back in the day though they charged more money for their parts than AT. I like to run the low voltage heads on 1X18650 if possible when packing the lights if using a 1X18650 headlamp. The low voltage head will run that forever. The basic UI also has a memory mode and just two click for Turbo.

That is true for sure, to each their own. I too like the Lego ability, it was one of the reasons I decided to try an Armytek. Yeah, their parts and really the flashlights too are a good value(especially if you get in on a sale). That's another nice thing about Armytek. I find they often offer a better value then many of their competitors(again especially when bought on sale).

 

[scs]

Tachead,

The runtime plots I posted are in response to your previous statement, "Where else can you get a light that is this small and puts out 1580 OTF lumens and can hold it right down to 3.0V..."

Unless the PP XHP 35 sample mkr tested has a different driver from your Prime XHP 35, is a pre-production model, or defective, the plots contradict your statement.

 

[Woods Walker]

The XHP-50 Wizard does seem to hold it's regulation better than that chart might imply the few times I tested it aka sub freezing winter trial run. Sure different lights and yes just using my eyes and yes also running myself. :laughing: So wonder if there isn't a hypothetical zone in which the Predator could hold it flatter. Not that I really care as know enough about these gear items to disregard certain claims from many manufactures within the context of actual use. Though that's one pro for Malkoff as yea kinda know what the numbers will be. But sometimes this puts Gene at a disadvantage in marketing "Why can't that Malkoff run for X hours like X maker advertises" etc etc etc.

auto correct you suck....edit....you blow.....

 

[scs]

The XHP-50 Wizard does seem to hold it's regulation longer better than that chart might imply. Sure different lights and yes just using my eyes and yes also running myself. :laughing: So wonder if there isn't a hypothetical zone in which the Predator could hold it flatter. Not that I really care as know enough about these gear items to disregard certain claims from many manufactures within the context of actual use. Though that's on pro for Malkoff as yea kinda know what the numbers will be. But sometimes this puts Gene at a disadvantage in marketing "Why can't that Malkoff run for X hours like X maker advertises" etc etc etc.

WW there is runtime plot for the Wizard XHP50 here #217 http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?414744-Armytek-XHP-50-Headlamp-1600-lumen/page8

 

[Woods Walker]

WW there is runtime plot for the Wizard XHP50 here #217 http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?414744-Armytek-XHP-50-Headlamp-1600-lumen/page8

I don't think it's totally applicable. For example he was using "I have used unprotected high current Acebeam 18650 2500 mAh, which should handle current up to 20A." I was using a high drain Sanyo 3500 red unprotected which was fairly new but fully broken in (if there such a thing). Also from my thread I ran 7 miles in 35F. Some how I think my conditions and battery might have made a difference. Rather than tossing links and charts around I wonder if anyone ever tested these in a freeze with a fan etc etc etc. I have used the XHP-50 in the single digits with high winds and honestly it felt a great deal less hot than when conditions were warmer. Not debating AT doesn't exaggerate numbers nor looking to defend that practice within this thread as some of info from various manufactures seems kinda hard to swallow IMHO rather looking for applicable info.

 

[Tachead]

Tachead,

The runtime plots I posted are in response to your previous statement, "Where else can you get a light that is this small and puts out 1580 OTF lumens and can hold it right down to 3.0V..."

Unless the PP XHP 35 sample mkr tested has a different driver from your Prime XHP 35, is a pre-production model, or defective, the plots contradict your statement.

I meant that that it holds the mode before dropping down till 3.0Vish not that it will still be exactly 1580 lumens when it drops out. That is almost unheard of in any light. Even ZL's best new lights cant hold a perfectly flat output on turbo, not even close and not even with extreme cooling measures. And, they are know to have some of the most advanced drivers in the industry. The only way to achieve that would be to significantly lower the starting output(way below what the light would put out in direct drive with a full cell). And, it is likely even harder to achieve when using an emitter with such a high voltage.

I can tell you for certain that my Prime Pro XHP35 does not have a runtime plot like that. As I said, it is still extremely bright right before it drops down a mode. My eyes can barely discern any difference.

You should probably base your opinion on more then two foreign runtime graphs on one single example of a light made by a guy you don't know from a hole in the ground. For all you know the light could be defective, his lightbox or meter could be highly cheap or inaccurate, his methods could be flawed, his batteries could be junk, or a number of other things could affect his charts. There could also be different drivers in different lights, different versions of firmware, different versions of drivers, etc.

Anyway, this isn't an Armytek runtime graph comparison thread and you are arguing about lights that you don't even have any first hand experience with so, how about we get back to the topic at hand scs.

 

[scs]

I don't think it's totally applicable. For example he was using "I have used unprotected high current Acebeam 18650 2500 mAh, which should handle current up to 20A." I was using a high drain Sanyo 3500 red unprotected which was fairly new but fully broken in (if there such a thing). Also from my thread I ran 7 miles in 35F. Some how I think my conditions and battery might have made a difference. Rather than tossing links and charts around I wonder if anyone ever tested these in a freeze with a fan etc etc etc. I have used the XHP-50 in the single digits with high winds and honestly it felt a great deal less hot than when conditions were warmer. Not debating AT doesn't exaggerate numbers nor looking to defend that practice within this thread as some of info from various manufactures seems kinda hard to swallow IMHO rather looking for applicable info.

Based on available data, educated extrapolation and interpolation can be made, no? Just because the testing parameters do not conform completely to those you're hoping for, doesn't mean you can't extract information and make estimates from the test.

 

[scs]

I meant that that it holds the mode before dropping down till 3.0Vish not that it will still be exactly 1580 lumens when it drops out. That is almost unheard of in any light. Even ZL's best new lights cant hold a perfectly flat output on turbo, not even close and not even with extreme cooling measures. And, they are know to have some of the most advanced drivers in the industry. The only way to achieve that would be to significantly lower the starting output(way below what the light would put out in direct drive with a full cell). And, it is likely even harder to achieve when using an emitter with such a high voltage.

I can tell you for certain that my Prime Pro XHP35 does not have a runtime plot like that. As I said, it is still extremely bright right before it drops down a mode. My eyes can barely discern any difference.

You should probably base your opinion on more then two foreign runtime graphs on one single example of a light made by a guy you don't know from a hole in the ground. For all you know the light could be defective, his lightbox or meter could be highly cheap or inaccurate, his methods could be flawed, his batteries could be junk, or a number of other things could affect his charts. There could also be different drivers in different lights, different versions of firmware, different versions of drivers, etc.

Anyway, this isn't an Armytek runtime graph comparison thread and you are arguing about lights that you don't even have any first hand experience with so, how about we get back to the topic at hand scs.

Thanks for modifying and qualifying your statement.
BTW MKR is quite the experienced reviewer on TLF.
And the variables I mentioned and you repeated: different drivers, defects, firmware. Therein lies the gamble.

 

[Tachead]

WW there is runtime plot for the Wizard XHP50 here #217 http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?414744-Armytek-XHP-50-Headlamp-1600-lumen/page8

Those runtime charts are showing thermal stepdown. A fan is not enough to cool these lights at the drive levels they are pushing. That is what you don't seem to understand. These lights are extremely small with no where near enough heatsinking to sustain these outputs even if the driver could support it. I would suspect you would have trouble keeping them anywhere near cool even in a freezer with a powerful fan. Even in -35C my Prime gets hot extremely fast on Turbo 2. It's only meant for short bursts and will quickly thermally throttle beyond that just like ZL's XHP35 models(except AT's thermal regulation is much less aggressive and will allow a higher output because it lets the light heat up right to 60C). I kind of like it, it doubles as a hand warmer and its great to have this high of an output even if its only for a couple of minutes at a time

 

[scs]

Those runtime charts are showing thermal stepdown. A fan is not enough to cool these lights at the drive levels they are pushing. That is what you don't seem to understand. These lights are extremely small with no where near enough heatsinking to sustain these outputs even if the driver could support it. I would suspect you would have trouble keeping them anywhere near cool even in a freezer with a powerful fan. Even in -35C my Prime gets hot extremely fast on Turbo 2. It's only meant for short bursts and will quickly thermally throttle beyond that just like ZL's XHP35 models(except AT's thermal regulation is much less aggressive and will allow a higher output because it lets the light heat up right to 60C). I kind of like it, it doubles as a hand warmer and its great to have this high of an output even if its only for a couple of minutes at a time

No I get thermo step down. Why does it not reduce output to a temperature it can handle and then maintains output at that level then? Or reduce output until the light is cool enough and then step back up again. NO. it keeps stepping down.

And MKR describes his testing parameters. The light was tested outside on a balcony in 7 degrees C. IN ADDITION, it was fan cooled.

I didn't comment on the wizard runtime plots, only on the PP plots. So let's stick to that alright.

 

[Tachead]

Thanks for modifying and qualifying your statement.
BTW MKR is quite the experienced reviewer on TLF.
And the variables I mentioned and you repeated: different drivers, defects, firmware. Therein lies the gamble.

Well, I can tell you for certain scs that my Prime is still very bright even near 3.0V right before it steps down. It is much brighter, even right before it steps down, then any light I have tried anywhere near this size. Beyond that, you will have to wait for my runtime charts.

Oh that's good to know but still not of use in this discussion because we were never talking about the Predator. Glad you have enough confidence in him to start arguments about lights you don't even own and haven't even tried though lol. Arguments with people who are currently holding the lights in their hand lol. I mean come on man

Anyway, lets not get this thread closed. It is a good thread and it wouldn't be fair to the OP.

My opinion is still that Armytek is worth the gamble

 

[Woods Walker]

Based on available data, educated extrapolation and interpolation can be made, no? Just because the testing parameters do not conform completely to those you're hoping for, doesn't mean you can't extract information and make estimates from the test.

Well how old is a 2500 mAh 18650 at this point. Yea know? Also remember the question you responded to and thanks for taking the time to find that info. Most people don't take the time to look around for info so I appreciate it.

"So wonder if there isn't a hypothetical zone in which the Predator could hold it flatter."

So the question remains also I don't expect anything to totally conform to anything else as that's not the nature of the universe. I bet someone at AT knows how the regulation responds or maybe they don't. Their numbers could be based on component/manufacturing data alone which might explain some of the very off numbers they stated over the years in many regards. The question still stands. I do know from my visual perception it seems kinda solid in colder weather but it takes a good deal of change to notice something during use. Still as stated I wonder if there is a hypothetical zone in which these numbers hold. Not looking to argue with anyone rather wondering about the answer.

 

[scs]

Well how old is a 2500 mAh 18650 at this point. Yea know? Also remember the question you responded to and thanks for taking the time to find that info. Most people don't take the time to look around for info so I appreciate it.

"So wonder if there isn't a hypothetical zone in which the Predator could hold it flatter."

So the question remains also I don't expect anything to totally conform to anything else as that's not the nature of the universe. I bet someone at AT knows how the regulation responds or maybe they don't. Their numbers could be based on component/manufacturing data alone which might explain some of the very off numbers they stated over the years in many regards. The question still stands. I do know from my visual perception it seems kinda solid in colder weather but it takes a good deal of change to notice something during use. Still as stated I wonder if there is a hypothetical zone in which these numbers hold. Not looking to argue with anyone rather wondering about the answer.

In theory, if the output is truly regulated and constant as advertised, it should hold that output as long as the light is kept cool sufficiently and the cell has enough juice. Runtime will be less than advertised, because manufacturers, even ZL, take advantage of thermo step downs to state longer runtimes. Some are up front about that though. I don't doubt that where you are and for your usage, your wizard is kept really cool most of the time and the output doesn't reduce much if at all. So there should be a plateau before a decline or step down on your plot.

 

[Woods Walker]

In theory, if the output is truly regulated and constant as advertised, it should hold that output as long as the light is kept cool sufficiently and the cell has enough juice. Runtime will be less than advertised, because manufacturers, even ZL, take advantage of thermo step downs to state longer runtimes. Some are up front about that though. I don't doubt that where you are and for your usage, your wizard is kept really cool most of the time and the output doesn't reduce much if at all. So there should be a plateau before a decline or step down on your plot.

I wish all manufactures produced real run time graphs and in cases of thermo regulation did so in clearly defined conditions.

 

[Tachead]

No I get thermo step down. Why does it not reduce output to a temperature it can handle and then maintains output at that level then? Or reduce output until the light is cool enough and then step back up again. NO. it keeps stepping down.

And MKR describes his testing parameters. The light was tested outside on a balcony in 7 degrees C. IN ADDITION, it was fan cooled.

I didn't comment on the wizard runtime plots, only on the PP plots. So let's stick to that alright.

Probably because it is direct drive in Turbo 2 to give the user maximum brightness. Running an XHP at that kind of output must suck a cell dry very fast and the driver has to boost the voltage up 4 times as well. That's why there is Turbo 1 as well. You can run it on that if you want regulated output. Like I said earlier, it is quite common for manufacturers to offer a DD Turbo for maximum brightness. Many lights are setup this way. I would like to see runtime charts for turbo 1 and the other levels myself. A runtime chart for a DD mode is expected to be that way with or without thermal regulation. But, I don't own or plan to buy a Predator so it really doesn't matter to me much.

 

[Tachead]

If I had to guess, I would say that the Prime and Wizard use the same driver but, the Predator and Viking use a different one. That is why their runtime graphs are so different on turbo 2. The literature supports this theory because the Prime and Wizard have a regulated turbo 2 whereas the Predator and Viking have a direct drive Turbo 2.

If that is the case, it looks like my Prime holds at least almost 1100lumens right till it drops down. Maybe more with better cooling. A better way to test this would be to just take an lux measurement at 4.20V then drain the cell in my charger, then put it back in the light at just above 3.0v and take another reading. That would eliminate any chance of thermal regulation interference. I will do this when my lightmeter gets here.

 

[scs]

If I had to guess, I would say that the Prime and Wizard use the same driver but, the Predator and Viking use a different one. That is why their runtime graphs are so different on turbo 2. The literature supports this theory because the Prime and Wizard have a regulated turbo 2 whereas the Predator and Viking have a direct drive Turbo 2.

If that is the case, it looks like my Prime holds at least almost 1100lumens right till it drops down. Maybe more with better cooling. A better way to test this would be to just take an lux measurement at 4.20V then drain the cell in my charger, then put it back in the light at just above 3.0v and take another reading. That would eliminate any chance of thermal regulation interference. I will do this when my lightmeter gets here.

How are you interpreting from the manuals or specs that T2 for the Prime (XHP 35) and Wizard (XHP 50) are regulated, but T2 for the Predator (XHP 35 HI) and Viking (XHP 50) are DD?

My guess is the Prime and Predator use the same driver, both using XHP 35 series emitters, and the Wizard and Viking use the same driver, both using the XHP 50.

 

[Tachead]

How are you interpreting from the manuals or specs that T2 for the Prime (XHP 35) and Wizard (XHP 50) are regulated, but T2 for the Predator (XHP 35 HI) and Viking (XHP 50) are DD?

My guess is the Prime and Predator use the same driver, both using XHP 35 series emitters, and the Wizard and Viking use the same driver, both using the XHP 50.

It says it in the instruction manual. I knew because I have a Viking Pro(XP-L) and it uses the same manual.

I wonder if they are using 12V or 6V XHP50's? If they are using 12V then I don't see why they would use a different driver because the same driver should work for both you would think. Or, maybe there is four drivers. I just assumed because the Predator and Viking have a direct drive Turbo 2 and the Wizard and Prime have a regulated Turbo 2 they would have different drivers. Just a guess though.

 

[Tachead]

Wait, maybe the Turbo 2 mode on the Prime and Wizard isn't fully regulated. I just read their manual again and it says only Turbo mode 1 is constant brightness. Maybe it is just loosely regulated on Turbo 2 and not direct drive? I am confused lol.

Well I will sort this out when I get my light box ready. I should have it up and running in a couple weeks at most.

We should really start a new thread about this. Sorry OP

 

[scs]

It says it in the instruction manual. I knew because I have a Viking Pro(XP-L) and it uses the same manual.

I wonder if they are using 12V or 6V XHP50's? If they are using 12V then I don't see why they would use a different driver because the same driver should work for both you would think. Or, maybe the there is four drivers. I just assumed because the Predator and Viking have a direct drive Turbo 2 and the Wizard and Prime have a regulated Turbo 2 they would have different drivers. Just a guess though.

Are you referring to this: Constant light. Powerful electronics provide constant brightness even in the Turbo1 mode, using all energy of the battery. And the Turbo2 mode gives the maximum brightness as the Overboost technology in cars, but until temperature of a flashlight and a discharge current of the battery don't exceed critical values.in the Wizard and Prime manuals?

And this: There are two Turbo modes. You will use only one, but can select which one. Turbo2 is boost mode for maximal brightness and set by default. Turbo1 is constant brightness mode (more powerful than Main modes). Half press & release the button (without click) at least 15 times. The flashlight must be switched on at the end of these actions. The light will flash 1 or 2 times to show the number of Turbo chosen.

in the Predator and Viking manuals?

How is that implying T2 for the Wizard and Prim is regulated, and T2 for the Predator and Viking is DD?