is the bluray hddvd war over?

[js]

Oook... Let's set the record straight for a couple of things... Ok, a lot of things. There's a ton of mis-information in this thread.

Firstly, Sony doesn't own Blu-Ray. It was a joint effort initially between Sony and Pioneer, whom developed the format in it's original incarnation. Further development took place under the auspices of the Blu-Ray Disc Association, which consists of upwards of 170 companies from all over the world.

Secondly, this is NOT, I repeat, NOT like Betamax Vs. VHS at all.
Betamax was just Sony and back then Sony did something pretty stupid and tried to sit on the technology. They also tried to control the content, which VHS didn't do. When they were sued by the Motion Picture Association of America, for not providing copy protection in the format, they had to take it off the market. By the time they had gotten over and done with the lawsuit, VHS was everywhere in the consumer market.
What happened is that Betamax instead went in to the professional market. The vast majority of TV broadcasting has been recorded with Sony Betamax cameras. First, analog ones, and in recent years, digital Betamax has become the de facto standard for broadcasting.

Blu-Ray on the other hand, has an absolute boatload of industry support. Dozens of companies are making players and have them on the market or have prototypes that they're developing.
Then there's all the support from the movie companies as well. Which again, Sony doesn't own all of.
Sony owns Columbia Pictures and is a joint owner of MGM. Hardly the entire industry.


Let's see... What else... Oh yes. Projection TVs. LCOS or SXRD as the technology is called in Sony TVs is by far one of the best ways of making a rear projection TV. DLP has issues with the rainbow effect for some people and in some cases isn't truly 1080p, but instead uses a technique called "wobulation" to increase the perceived number of pixels in the picture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wobulation
Yes, that's actually a word.

Most RP televisions on the market today, from at least 50 inches and up, are 1080p. This has been the case for about 2 years.

720p Vs 1080p:
1080p has effectively double the number of pixels. It is capable of much finer detail. That being said, even a 720p TV can benefit greatly from being hooked up with something like a Blu-Ray player.
It is important to keep in mind that even the best broadcast high definition is still **** poor quality compared to the clarity and detail that you can get from a Blu-Ray player with a Blu-Ray movie. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD uses far less compression, and as such, motion, fine edge detail, colors and so on, looks far more realistic. It is, quite literally, a night and day difference.

Upconverted DVD looks noticeably better on HD TVs than standard definition DVD does, but it's still, even on a 720p TV, not anywhere near the quality.
Even Joe Average, without a demo line on his screen should be able to see the difference. If they can't... They need glasses.

Upconverting DVD players will upconvert to 720p or 1080i (interlaced), and typically will require an HDMI connection to the TV in order to do so. Some units may still be able to output through the component video connections, but that's comparatively rare. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players (the HD-DVD players that actually have 1080p output, which isn't the 200 dollar and under jobbies) will upconvert DVD to 1080p, but the final result will never measure up to the real deal.



The Sony Bravia XBR4 line does not have a 32 inch 1080p set. It's 720p.
However, the 2008 line of the XBR series, the XBR6s will offer both a 32 inch and a 37 inch with a 1080p resolution.

DRM:
HD-DVD and Blu-Ray use pretty much the same kind of DRM encryption.
Which has been hacked. And then upgraded. And then hacked again. The latest iteration for Blu-Ray is BD+... Which hasn't been hacked... Yet.
One format isn't any more open than the other. HD-DVD is typically not region encoded. Not that I personally care, since I rarely find much use for imported movies. Give it time, and just like DVD players, you will one day also see Blu-Ray players that are region free.
Just like DVD players, the Blu-Ray players will also drop in price. They already have. In little over a year, they've gone from a 1000 dollars to less than 300.
How long did it take before DVD players hit a hundred dollars?

Blockbuster:
Blockbuster started their HD movie rentals in 250 of their stores, and carried both formats. This was done as an initial trial run.
Late last year, they announced that they would now carry only Blu-Ray in their remaining 1400 or so stores, as their only HD Movie format, while the original 250 trial stores, would continue carrying both formats.
Online, they do indeed offer both formats, as does Netflix.

Hmm... I think that's about all I can think of right now.
I apologize if I'm coming across a little insensitive on this topic, but working in the field, and seeing all the mis-information, paranoia and outright bullshit that's being spread around as gospel all over the web... Well, it's intensely frustrating.
If you doubt anything that I've written here, feel free to research it yourself and if you find that I'm wrong, please, correct me by listing your source.
"My cousins uncles son-in-law" is not a valid source, by the way. Just sayin'...

Great post, Erik! Good info. I just looked up the Bravia XBR4 32" set and was surprised to see that it wasn't 1080p. I remembered reseraching LCD HD TV sets and being partial to either the 40" or 32" XBR4, and thinking that both were 1080p. I was wrong. After looking at the prices, I realize now I was comparing the 40" and the next size up.

Anyway, thanks so much for this informative post.

Totally agree. While HD looks a LITTLE nicer, it's nothing like the change from VHS to DVD which was a no brainer. Now if they go from DVD to Holographic movies, or something revolutionary, I'll upgrade. This HD is a scam to get people spending boatloads of money on new HDTV, new satellite/cable HD Receiver & dish setup, HD disc player, HD disc burner, etc....while they don't even have the two formats figured out yet. Both formats are already totally obsolete in terms of new disc media capacity.

It is working out about as well as M$'s insane Vista OS. Anyone who bought 1st couple generations of HD-TV's can't use them with the new content protection they came out with, and I doubt they are done changing that HDCP protocol yet since they have all been hacked already. This is the stupidest rollout of a new product technology I have ever seen.

I have to disagree with your take on this, Lux. Hi-Def is not only new technology, but a change in formats. Early adopters of ALL cutting edge technology are taking a risk. IT'S NOT A "SCAM". It's just the nature of these things. Those who jumped in very early on were willing to spend a lot of money to be on the cutting edge, probably knowing full well that better and cheaper players and sets were on the way, and that theirs would be outdated or outmoded much sooner than they might like. But, being hobbiests and aficionados and enthusiasts, they likely didn't care. Just as with those of us here on CPF who jump to get the latest, most high-tech, brightest lights, cost no object, only to find that 6 months later something 1/10 the cost is as bright or brighter.

As for the difference in quality, I totally agree with Erik: the difference in quality to my eyes is immediately noticeable and quite impressive. I wouldn't need the side-by-side comparison to tell one from the other, but the side-by-side comparison is pretty impressive, though.

Still . . . I agree with you in the sense that I agree that it's best for most people (including myself) to wait until all this shakes out and settles down. But it's not a "rollout" of a new technology, like a new operating system! There isn't one entity in charge of the roll out. There are many entities involved, some with conflicting ideas and interests. This sort of thing is bound to be a bit chaotic and turbulent.

It's not a scam. It's just the way the free market works. Vote with your wallet, if you like. It's not Windows Vista. You aren't forced to adopt HD anything, nor will you be likely to be for many years to come.

 

[js]

ErikThakrar,

Quick question:

I understand that the PS 3 is a BR player, and also that it will be capable of being configured to whatever new formats come up in the future via software/firmware upgrades, unlike some dedicated BR players which may not be able to be configured to the new format (or whatever it's called).

Is this true? And if so, doesn't it sort of make buying a PS 3 a smart choice for a BR player?

 

[tebore]

ErikThakrar,

Quick question:

I understand that the PS 3 is a BR player, and also that it will be capable of being configured to whatever new formats come up in the future via software/firmware upgrades, unlike some dedicated BR players which may not be able to be configured to the new format (or whatever it's called).

Is this true? And if so, doesn't it sort of make buying a PS 3 a smart choice for a BR player?

Most BR players can be updated using an ISO burned to a CD or DVD well the high priced ones anyway.

The PS3 can play a lot of formats not just BR. Especially once Linux is installed and you can install any codec you want.

 

[Art Vandelay]

What will happen if everybody switches to Blueray? My guess is high prices and no incentive to innovate. The Sony Playstation is already the only Blueray player recommended by the Blueray company (Sony).

People would go crazy if Microsoft tried this.

 

[raggie33]

all my family got me a ps3 for xmas i love it gamieng on it is so cool and it plays dvds at 1080 they realy look hd.bluray is simply rock and roll plus sex

 

[ErickThakrar]

ErikThakrar,

Quick question:

I understand that the PS 3 is a BR player, and also that it will be capable of being configured to whatever new formats come up in the future via software/firmware upgrades, unlike some dedicated BR players which may not be able to be configured to the new format (or whatever it's called).

Is this true? And if so, doesn't it sort of make buying a PS 3 a smart choice for a BR player?

It makes sense buying a PS3 since it can be upgraded to add new features, such as the recent update for Profile 1.1 and eventually also Profile 2.0
Since the PS3 is effectively a software based player, similar to what it would be on a PC, there's no immediate limitation to it's upgradeability.

A hardware player has the potential of being marginally better as far as picture and sound quality. A hardware player will for instance, assuming the right model, be compatible with all three uncompressed audio standards, where as the PS3 isn't capable of outputting DTS-HD in anything except DTS-Core.
But you can't add new features to a hardware-based player that would require hardware upgrades. Such as, for Profile 1.1, adding a second video decoder, or for Profile 2.0, an ethernet port.

 

[ErickThakrar]

What will happen if everybody switches to Blueray? My guess is high prices and no incentive to innovate. The Sony Playstation is already the only Blueray player recommended by the Blueray company (Sony).

People would go crazy if Microsoft tried this.

I don't even know quite where to begin with this.
Do you understand how a free market economy works? Do you understand what has been pointed out before in this thread, that Sony doesn't own or run Blu-Ray? Sony is ONE member of the Blu-Ray Disc Association.
They don't control the BDA. They don't own the BDA.
They are NOT the only company making Blu-Ray players.
Did DVD movies go up in price when they beat out VHS?
How about the hardware? Did they stop innovating there?
Why not?

 

[Art Vandelay]

I don't even know quite where to begin with this.
Do you understand how a free market economy works? Do you understand what has been pointed out before in this thread, that Sony doesn't own or run Blu-Ray? Sony is ONE member of the Blu-Ray Disc Association.
They don't control the BDA. They don't own the BDA.
They are NOT the only company making Blu-Ray players.
Did DVD movies go up in price when they beat out VHS?
How about the hardware? Did they stop innovating there?
Why not?

I know how a monopoly works. What happens to Blu-Ray prices when they have no competition? Many companies may own patents in Blu-Ray, but which company makes Blu-Ray disks? Is it just coincidence that the only Blu-Ray player recommended by the Blu-Ray is the Sony PS3?

The movie companies got paid to support one standard over another. That is competition, but it is not a competition based on what player is best for the consumer.

I would not count hddvd out yet. They just announced they are cutting prices by 50%. That may not make a difference to everyone, but to the average Wal-Mart type customer that may make the difference. If enough people choose hddvd, the studios may follow. That's the beauty of the free market economy.

 

[ErickThakrar]

Again, you're wrong about so many things it's not even funny.
One: It's not a monopoly.
Two: There is STILL competition. What competition did DVD have? Show me the other format that's been competing with DVD for the last 10 years.
There is none. Yet prices on the discs have dropped.
Funny story, Sony isn't the only manufacturer of Blu-Ray discs either. TDK is one, Verbatim is another. There are more as well.

Three: You keep saying that the only player that's recommended is the PS3. Could you show me a link to that, cause I haven't seen that anywhere yet.
Not saying it's not the case, but I haven't seen it on any of the official sites.

Four:
The movie companies didn't receive massive amounts of compensation to go with one format over another. They switched over when sales figures consistently showed that Blu-Ray sold more movies. That's not rocket science. If you want to talk about compensation, let's talk about the 150 million dollars that Paramount received to go HD-DVD exclusive for 18 months. THAT isn't hyperbole. That IS part of the public record.

And your last statement is exactly why you're wrong about this. HD-DVD isn't selling. Not even to the Wal-Mart types. It hasn't made a difference. The 2:1 difference in sales in the US and the almost 4:1 difference in sales in Europe is a crystal clear indicator of that.
And while HD-DVD movies are selling for 50% off at Amazon, it's only for about 84 titles and so is Blu-Ray.
Blu-Ray which by the way, has almost 50 more titles on the shelf.

 

[BB]

Three: You keep saying that the only player that's recommended is the PS3. Could you show me a link to that, cause I haven't seen that anywhere yet.

Not saying it's not the case, but I haven't seen it on any of the official sites.

Not that I trust any news source farther than I can p*** up wind--From the link I posted earlier:

Representatives at the Blu-ray booth at CES told BetaNews that the PlayStation 3 is currently the only player they would recommend, due to upcoming changes to the platform. But Pioneer, Samsung, Panasonic and Sony have all been selling standalone Blu-ray players to customers.

Did they really say that or not... :shrug:

-Bill

 

[js]

Well, I for one like Blu-ray because blue is my favorite color. That's why I will buy a Blu-ray player, or PS3 or whatever. Blue. Much better than HD. Is that even a color?

 

[js]

It makes sense buying a PS3 since it can be upgraded to add new features, such as the recent update for Profile 1.1 and eventually also Profile 2.0
Since the PS3 is effectively a software based player, similar to what it would be on a PC, there's no immediate limitation to it's upgradeability.

A hardware player has the potential of being marginally better as far as picture and sound quality. A hardware player will for instance, assuming the right model, be compatible with all three uncompressed audio standards, where as the PS3 isn't capable of outputting DTS-HD in anything except DTS-Core.
But you can't add new features to a hardware-based player that would require hardware upgrades. Such as, for Profile 1.1, adding a second video decoder, or for Profile 2.0, an ethernet port.

Fantastic answer, Erik. Really good to know this stuff. Given what you've said, I will wait and buy an actual BR player when there are more movies available and things have shaken out a bit more. I don't play video games, so a PS 3 doesn't really appeal to me at the moment--not that I couldn't take up the hobby, but . . . I probably have enough hobbies. hehe.

 

[ErickThakrar]

Not that I trust any news source farther than I can p*** up wind--From the link I posted earlier:



Did they really say that or not... :shrug:

-Bill

Ok, so that's where that's from. I'm not sure about the validity of that either, as I haven't seen any official pronouncements.
And let's face it. The article from Betanews doesn't exactly come across as unbiased.

Js, I certainly can't blame you for waiting. Shouldn't be long though. Later this year, the first Profile 2.0 players will hit the market. Expect prices to be around the 300 dollar mark and below.

 

[LuxLuthor]

We shall see how it all shakes out. I used the word scam because of all the people who bought early HD TV setups and players, and they won't work with current HDMI HDCP protocols....with yet more changes on the way. That is not right to leave all those people stuck with many thousands of dollars of supposedly HD capable equipment....but if you want to go out and buy a system, go for it.

If you look at CURRENT technologies, both Bluray and HDDVD are already obsolete. The cutting edge Japanese have already left both in the dust. There are too many competing technologies and content delivery systems fighting for the home entertainment market to justify the average person investing in either BR or DVDHD...at this time.

I also don't agree that there is as much of a qualitative difference going from DVD to this HD generation of Bluray or HDDVD, as compared to going from VHS tape to the first DVD digital media. That was a revolutionary change. So was going from analog vinyl to digital CD. I see HD as an outrageously expensive enhancement if you want to do it right.

I would much rather download movies/shows and store on various media of my choosing than be locked into one of these two disc formats. When DVD came out it didn't have any real technically viable competition or division in standards like you see with these two.

Again I have looked at HD setups, TV/Movie HD delivery systems, and stay mostly on the cutting edge of technology. The current ho-hum HD situation is not blowing me away enough to invest in new hardware, nor would I recommend it to anyone else.....yet. That is true with the American market in general.

 

[ErickThakrar]

Yes, the Japanese have left us in the dust with technology that isn't even remotely hitting the market for another 7 years at the very least! They don't have anything that can even transfer that 24gbps stream, and they're also woefully short on cameras that can even record in that high a resolution. All of that stuff is at the research and prototype level.
Let's keep it in the present day.
1080p is as good as it gets in the home for several years to come. Even when 4K resolution TVs hit the market at an affordable level, the content is not even remotely ready for it yet.
The fact that you claim to not being able to see it as much of a qualitative difference... Well, sorry. Can't help you there. I see it. Most other people do.

And if you look at the technical differences, there's a greater difference in level of detail between Blu-Ray/HD-DVD and DVD than there was between DVD and VHS. Especially when you take in to account formats such as Super VHS. Outrageously expensive? Compared to what? Quite a bit less than 3 grand can buy you a very capable setup. Considering the price of some early VHS decks and DVD players... Shite man. That's peanuts.


Now, what HD players are those that won't work with HDMI HDCP protocols? I know there's televisions out there that have issues, typically the ones that use DVI; I.E. older models, but I'm not aware of any HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players that don't work with HDCP.

 

[js]

Thanks for your post, Lux! Sorry if I over reacted. I do see where you're coming from.

But, for me personally, my eyes actually see a GREATER difference between DVD and Blu-Ray / HD DVD, than the difference between VHS and DVD. I still watch VHS stuff quite frequently, and of course, DVD, so I have plenty of recent experience to draw from. And, to my eyes, a Blu-Ray movie on a true 1080p HD set is a significantly bigger step up in quality than the one from VHS to DVD.

Of course, if you mean the total package, then, yes, the step from VHS to DVD was pretty big. Much easier to skip forward or back or return or freeze frame, not to mention the whole special features thing / commentary, and also the smaller size and greater durability over time of DVD vs. VHS tapes. In that sense, I think you're right.

But in terms of picture quality, my eyes see the HD difference as greater than the VHS to DVD difference. Your mileage may and obviously does differ. No problem with that, though.

Take care, Lux.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Yes, JS, I did mean the total package strengths of DVD vs. VHS. I have many VHS tapes where the tape stretches, breaks down, exposed to heat/magnetism/dirt, or gets stuck in the tape deck and tears....all leading to issues of overall quality and features. Higher resolution (especially if remastered) for DVD on a nice TV was also a huge step forward in resolution. Being able to burn your own DVD's (& CD's) fairly soon after their single format (no wars like you see with HD) launch added to their popularity and adoption.

Obviously, there is a much improved picture quality from DVD to HD....but I am saying that the format wars are not over. I don't believe the HDCP vs. consumer wars are yet over (i.e. the Image Constraint Token) in this HD setting--since current BR & HDDVD encryption protection have already been cracked. With HD, they made it involve your TV, content receiver, cables, disc player, etc. which puts the consumer at a significant risk of being stuck with obsolete, expensive hardware.

There has been deceptive descriptions and terms used in various hardware (including HD TV's) that leaves the average consumer confused. Eventually most of us will upgrade to a HD setup, but when you add up the costs of a BR Disc player, cables, decent HDTV (good luck figuring out which features and how much money you want to spend), cable/satellite/FIOS reception equipment, higher TV HD monthly service fees, DVR, costs of HD movie discs, possible audio speaker upgrade, possible HD burner, this is not a cheap investment. My preference would be a computer based entertainment system that downloads the HD content I want to buy....totally bypassing both HDDVD and BR.

I upgraded our main family TV about year ago, and had the option of buying cutting edge higher resolution plasma/LCD HDTV 1080p display models for many thousands of dollars, and decided that not enough has been settled yet; other hardware would need to be also upgraded; and not enough is being broadcast yet to justify getting a system that too soon will be obsolete. I opted instead for 1080i CRT that looks great and was a minor investment until the dust settles.

 

[ErickThakrar]

Nope, the "war" isn't over yet. But it's not looking good for HD-DVD.
Here's the thing though. HDCP isn't really crackable. That's a hardware based copyprotection. The encryptions that have so far been cracked are the software based solution, similar to the encryption schemes used on DVD movies.
Although, like I've mentioned BD+ has yet to be cracked.
The trouble with most computer based solutions are that realistically, downloadable content will require a much higher degree of compression than physical media-based content will. Only a very small percentage of people have or can even afford FIOS services and frankly, that's what will be required. So there goes the quality.
Do you want to wait several hours, maybe days, downloading a 25-50 gigabyte download to watch a movie? Plus you need to have the storage capacity, and the PC power to display a 1080p video file. On a sufficiently large display. Which will most likely use an HDMI connection or DisplayPort and has HDCP, so if your equipment isn't up to snuff, no soup for you. Or do you want to pick it up at your local store, watch it, and then put it on your shelf for the next time you want to watch the same movie.

Now, about my earlier question: what HD players are those that won't work with HDMI HDCP protocols?

 

[Lit Up]

Speaking from a Joe Consumer standpoint on all this - who really cares?

I have a couple hundred DVDs sitting around I don't get much time to watch and have absolutely no interest whatsoever in coughing up copious amounts of cash to convert them to high-definition. Then you have Hollywood that's leaving me more and more wishing I had BACK the 2 hours of my life wasted on a sad excuse for a film, nevermind actually going out to pay money to own it. Couple that with a warehouse full of awful remakes.

I heard about the writer's strike happening and I was like, "They went on strike, really? All 3 of them?"

Not to mention there's a lot of movies that didn't survive the VHS-DVD change over. Just lost to time and aging tape.

 

[phenwick]

Looks like the studio backing is going to be the deciding factor. Toshiba didn't push it very hard at the beginning, when they had the upper foot on Sony.
I think from a marketing stand point Blue Ray Disc has more appeal to an uninformed consumer than HD-DVD.