it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

[NAW]

Its funny how there is a low number of Surefire Beast II and Hellfire owners here(compared to other HID owners), yet those two products seem to get the most praise and glory.

Its all Surefire reputation. I could bet if the Beast II weren't made by Surefire and by some other company, then it would never be taken seriously.

The bottom line is simple though... its only worth it if you feel its worth it.

I for one don't think its worth it and will subscribe to something else that I feel is definetley worth every penny which would probably be the BarnBurner. As for those who go down the raod of the Beast II, I hope you have fun

 

[JasonC8301]

Testing a light on an M16 is not remotely the same as throwing it off buildings. Using an analogy of a $500K-1 Million recreational sports car toy for the ultra rich has nothing to do with using an affordable light that the taxpayer is buying, and that can be properly cared for with the appropriate instructions & guidelines.

You could make these same lame arguments about every piece of equipment that is ever used by the military...that it must be indestructible. Let's see....soldiers are instructed not to use their M-16 as a pry-bar...so somehow they manage not to use it for that stupid use. To follow your logic, why don't we have every Hummer now cost $100 million so none of the Iranian IED's can possibly damage it in any way, no matter the amount of plastic explosive used?

A better analogy of common sense affordable engineering is the AK-47....which became the weapon of choice throughout the world that is not being supplied by the "Cost Is No Object--USA" (aka: Taxpayers).

And to follow your logic of being an arm chair expert you never deal with things that do break down in an area of combat no matter how much they cost.

How many soldiers do you think have a SF Beast of Hellfire? I would say only a very small percent. The reason we do not have $100 million dollar HMMWV's is because it is not cost effective. Its a game of numbers and sometimes a human life is a calculated risk. You can make arguments but that dead soldier is still dead no matter how much money the US of A throws at him.

If you don't like it, leave.

 

[LuxLuthor]

ROFL...telling me to leave as your answer. Good Job. :rock:

It amazes me how once you expose the illogical thinking of justifying ridiculously high prices for someone's pet product because it is being sold to the military, they bring in something like their "last ditch - dead soldier "theory.

So you are saying that a soldier is not smart enough to use a spotlight the way instructed to do so? How can they have learned not to use their M16 as a pry-bar, but then are not able to figure out that throwing an affordable spotlight down a 6 story building is not acceptable?

Surely you understand that if they bend the M16 barrel it would similarly jeopardize their life? So to follow your logic because you are enamored of the high end SF lineup, we taxpayers should now justify "the military" adding another $4,000 to fortify every single M16 barrel with some new spinkee titanium alloy...since we should spare no expense to prevent a dead soldier from dying when they use their M16 as a prybar. ROFL!

 

[cchurchi]

The Surefire beast is the Harley Davidson of flashlights. So basicly, it costs twice as much as it should (based on its size, weight, output) because of the name brand.

As far a soldiers are concerned, the government will spend a set amount per solder. I would rather that money be spent wisely on things like better body armor, more powerful ammuntion, or better pay!

Imagine if Surefire came out with a "rappers edition 50 Cent Beast III" plated with real platinium look-alike aloys and encrusted with cubic zirconium diamonds for $8,000. I'm sure some here would argue that Surefire had to substantialy beef up the light to incorporate the extra bling thus justifing the $4,000 higher price tag.

 

[seery]

Very well stated Bill. IMHO the price of the Beast II is quite fair for what it offers. Of ALL the other HID's, it's the only "real tool" among the toys.

Let's see you take those other lights and throw them as far as you can, while they are lit, and see how many of them stay lit!

PK did just that with the Beast, and while I wasn't there, those that were said it went WAY up in the air and a LONG way down the street and kept right on running!

How many of you would be willing to do that with your Polarians, Costco HIDs, Xeray, Helios, Rayzorlites, Amondotechs, etc? I have two of those, and I ain't gonna try it with either!

The Beast is what it is, and cost what it cost, period!

No one else I know of makes a light that WE can buy that will take the abuse the Beast and Hellfighter can, at ANY price!

Bill

 

[bwaites]

Does anyone here HONESTLY think that PK LOWERED the standards he established with the Beast? I have not heard that the BeastII has been subjected to the same type of "throw it as far as you can" test that the Beast was, but I have serious doubts that PK LOWERED the survivability of the light for the second version!

Lex, I'm sorry, but it is VERY obvious that you have NO experience in high stress jobs!

Of course the military doesn't intentionally throw their HID lights, or drop them off buildings, or intentionally do many of the things that Beast is made to survive, but those things DO happen accidently also. (Soldier on roof checking area for hiding enemies, gets shot at, dives for cover, light falls off roof.)

BUT, military environments ARE incredibly tough on equipment, not because of deliberate abuse, but because of the situation.

NO ONE forces anyone to buy a Beast, if a cheaper light will do what you want it to, buy it! The military does, buying lots of other HID lights for different uses.

BUT, once again, when they need the survivability of the Beast/BeastII or Hellfire, that's what they buy.

Does anyone here understand "lowest price" pricing? It essentially states that you must give the government the best available price. You cannot design something to government standards, charge the government one price, and then lower the price once you have made up your development costs.

Since there is essentially NO commercial market, (give me a break if you think the few people that own Beasts here on CPF are a legitimate money making market!) Surefire makes its costs up on the government market. If they then release a few to us wackos, we pay what the government pays, +/- whatever additional marketing/handling costs there are for small volume sales.

For those who think they are too much money for the parts, please design and build one and bring it out for less and people will line up to buy them!

Sheesh, I've seen people here on CPF pay $1000 for $10 worth of Titanium, and $30 worth of circuitry and LED!

Bill

 

[mtbkndad]

Does anyone here HONESTLY think that PK LOWERED the standards he established with the Beast? I have not heard that the BeastII has been subjected to the same type of "throw it as far as you can" test that the Beast was, but I have serious doubts that PK LOWERED the survivability of the light for the second version!

Lex, I'm sorry, but it is VERY obvious that you have NO experience in high stress jobs!

Of course the military doesn't intentionally throw their HID lights, or drop them off buildings, or intentionally do many of the things that Beast is made to survive, but those things DO happen accidently also. (Soldier on roof checking area for hiding enemies, gets shot at, dives for cover, light falls off roof.)

BUT, military environments ARE incredibly tough on equipment, not because of deliberate abuse, but because of the situation.

NO ONE forces anyone to buy a Beast, if a cheaper light will do what you want it to, buy it! The military does, buying lots of other HID lights for different uses.

BUT, once again, when they need the survivability of the Beast/BeastII or Hellfire, that's what they buy.

Does anyone here understand "lowest price" pricing? It essentially states that you must give the government the best available price. You cannot design something to government standards, charge the government one price, and then lower the price once you have made up your development costs.

Since there is essentially NO commercial market, (give me a break if you think the few people that own Beasts here on CPF are a legitimate money making market!) Surefire makes its costs up on the government market. If they then release a few to us wackos, we pay what the government pays, +/- whatever additional marketing/handling costs there are for small volume sales.

For those who think they are too much money for the parts, please design and build one and bring it out for less and people will line up to buy them!

Sheesh, I've seen people here on CPF pay $1000 for $10 worth of Titanium, and $30 worth of circuitry and LED!

Bill

With all due respect this thread was about "what a bargain" the Beast is.
I do not believe PK would intentionally design the Beast 2 to be less durable.
That does not mean it instantly is as durable either.
I could drop a Beast from 10 or 15 feet and ruin it.
That test would be no more fair then assuming every Beast will always be able to handle the punishment that the one PK threw did.

The one point I did not elaborate on regarding Surefires advantage over Polarion is that Surefire is big.
They have a large well established distribution system and they are big enough to aggressively protect their pricing structure. The end result is that they can charge what they want.

That is their right. It is only a matter of time before others develop lights of similar quality and at substantially lower prices.
I really do not think the average Soldier or Border agent is planning on throwing their Beast's on a regular basis.
The Helios is more compact, does not have a square ballast behind the head and is $2700 less and thows farther where it counts while still having a very wide beam.

Companies simply will charge what they feel their products are worth.
As I mentioned before, even if I had $4,800 for spotlight purchases I would not buy a Beast. I could get much more lighting capacity that is more suited to my needs from multiple companies for the same price.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

 

[XeRay]

One word of note, The US military is somewhat unsatisfied with the performance of the Hellfire (I have been told this by my military contacts). They have returned many failed units. They are actively looking for other options. It is my understanding the US military pays about $2,600.00 for the Hellfire.

 

[bwaites]

I understand that some units MAY have failed, but the fact that they are ACTIVELY looking is a pretty good indication that no one has found an obviously better unit.

As for your contacts in the military, what do you EXPECT them to say to you? That's the way the game is played! If the military was really unhappy, they would cancel or put on hold future orders. Since the process to do so with unclassified items is public, has anyone checked?

I'm not a Surefire rep, nor do I think that their lights are the be all and end all. In fact, I think that many of their lights CAN be improved, (Look at what Milkyspit is doing to them for one example!).

BUT...and this is a big BUT...No one else seems to have stepped into the breach to produce a comparable light at a better price!

I don't (and never will) have a Beast/BeastII/Hellfire etc. I DO have several commercial HID lights. They suit my needs and budget. The Surefires do not.

I keep hoping that XeRay will produce a light with Beast/Hellfire durability and at 1/3 the cost, but so far, every HID I have fails some of my criteria. Too big, wrong body, etc. None of them are perfect, (neither are the Surefires to me).

At the price, they are what they are; some of us think they are overpriced, some of us think underpriced, some just right priced.

However, until SOMEONE comes out with a similar unit at a better price, it is the defacto "best buy"!

I remember a similar discussion in the late winter/early spring. XeRay was working on a new light with similar specs, is it ready for primetime?


Bill

 

[XeRay]

I remember a similar discussion in the late winter/early spring. XeRay was working on a new light with similar specs, is it ready for primetime?

We are already selling to the military for a 50 cal application. We are not showing this installation on our website, since we do not want any of our competition to know what we are doing yet. In a few months it wont matter any more.

 

[mtbkndad]

We are already selling to the military for a 50 cal application. We are not showing this installation on our website, since we do not want any of our competition to know what we are doing yet. In a few months it wont matter any more.

Dan,
You are smart. The last place you will want to show it until to no longer matters is CPF. .

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

 

[cchurchi]

Some who have responded to this tread feel the Surefire Beast II is overpriced by several thousand dollars. I agree. The question is whether or not Surefire is price gouging the government simply because the government often writes out blank checks.

To determine if this is the case, we must first determine how much each Surefire Beast II costs to manufacture. Anyone care to take a guess. I would bet that Surefire would still make a healthy profit if each unit was sold around $2,500.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Despite the tenacity of my arguments, I will always concede that the market will determine the prices, once there is an avenue of healthy competition, and an objective evaluation of overall product performance for a given price (which is missing with some on CPF).

My specific objection in these SF & Polarion overpriced high end lights is with those who use the government/military to justify ridiculous prices, when it is one of the primary clients. Prices should be based on market forces, competitive products, and more reasonable expectations. If SF wants to make a Solid 14K Gold Beast with jewels bedecking various features...at a price of $25,000 for their John Travolta clients....go for it. Just don't try and justify the price being worth every penny because the military/government is paying for it. That is not a logical argument of the product's value.

Having served in the Navy, and on submarines for 4 years, I am well aware of the excessive performance demands on equipment. That does not mean that a flashlight must be made with a ridiculously high price because some numnuts Colonel and his supply Master Sergeant (notice I didn't choose Navy ranks...Go Navy!) think it would be nice to have a light that paralyzes the enemy while spitting nickels to keep the troops entertained.

Yes, SF might be able to design a flashlight that might survive a nuclear bomb out of some spinkee Blue Kryptonite, but only when used on the Bizarros home world. Oh, and it willl cost a bazillion dollars, but of course is worth every penny because:

• 1) SF made it, and we must all worship everything SF makes

• 2) the Military will be buying 100 of them...so now we really know it is worth their price.

ps) Dan I sure hope your company did not sign the kind of non-disclosure documents I had seen when working with some Navy contractors at Electric Boat. Even mentioning the possibility of a new product/application was a violation.

 

[bwaites]

So, can we expect to get the Xerays in a "few months"? And if so, what will be the cost?

I'm looking forward to it!

I want a light with the durability of the Beast/Hellfire, but with real world pricing.

Bill

 

[NAW]

I keep hoping that XeRay will produce a light with Beast/Hellfire durability and at 1/3 the cost, but so far, every HID I have fails some of my criteria. Too big, wrong body, etc. None of them are perfect, (neither are the Surefires to me).

Actually Polarion is working on just that.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/139719&highlight=Polarion

 

[BVH]

Mtbkndad, for $2,200 in compensation, I'll gladly perform the 3-story, toss it off the roof test using my Helios. Sooner or later, one of us Helios owners will probably do something like this by accident. I vote for waiting. (Hopefully, its not me)

 

[bwaites]

NAW,

That's significantly more than 1/3rd the cost, and although it MIGHT be a Hellfire competitor, it's not a Beast Competitor.

I love the look, but it's not a flashlight, anymore than a Costco hid is a
flashlight.

And my goodness, they are still $2000 plus. So far as I know, they aren't certified for use on crew weapons, tanks, etc.

They are gorgeous, but I wouldn't be willing to throw one off the roof to see if it would survive, would you?

Bill

 

[mtbkndad]

Mtbkndad, for $2,200 in compensation, I'll gladly perform the 3-story, toss it off the roof test using my Helios. Sooner or later, one of us Helios owners will probably do something like this by accident. I vote for waiting. (Hopefully, its not me)

I would gladly have Mr Ted Bear pay you $3000 compensation.


Mr Ted Bear, you did not see this post .
Maybe Ken would like to do this test since I seem to remember him mentioning something about a rubber boot for the Helios.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

 

[NAW]

NAW,

That's significantly more than 1/3rd the cost, and although it MIGHT be a Hellfire competitor, it's not a Beast Competitor.

I love the look, but it's not a flashlight, anymore than a Costco hid is a flashlight.

Bill

Its basically nothing more than a Polarion Helios flashlight with mounts, etc.

The regular Polarion Helios sells for $2000.

 

[mtbkndad]

luxluthor,

You have numerous good points :thumbsup: . I would like to say there is a difference between my saying single unit light prices need to be high in order to have room for tiered pricing agreements and my saying these lights are necessarily worth their high single unit prices. I have a very unique need that causes me to look at the Polarion X1 and if another light comes by that is just as packable and tough at a significantly lower price before I have the funds for and X1 then I will get it.
Of course MBC is only six months away and I NEED to start saving for it too even more then I need and X1 .

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave: