Johova witness encounter

[alard]

Re: Jehovah's witness encounter

What is it that the Bible "really" teaches, according to The Witnesses? I'm curious, as it seems like every religious group feels the Bible teaches slightly different things, interprets it under a slightly different light, or focuses on slightly different points. Thanks for sharing.

For instance, while many have been taught that man has an immortal soul, and, that this soul goes either to heaven or hell after death, depending on the type of life led. Careful reading of the Bible, without preconceptions, reveals that this doctrine is neither stated nor implied. Without quoting chapter and verse, which you can get if you care to ask a Witness:
You are a soul, when you die, you are dead.
Hell is an invention of man. In the Bible, fire is used to indicate destruction. Hades is often mistranslated as Hell, where Hades really means, simply, the grave to which all eventually go.
The hope held out by Jesus is that of eternal life as a human on the earth.
That is what a resurrection is, bringing a person back to life.
This idea of life in paradise is stated often and quoted by Jesus himself. Paradise means garden, not some place in heaven. A select few do go to heaven, Jesus being the first of these. Those will comprise a government over all things, including earth. This is the Kingdom often spoken about that will bring God's will to the earth as it is in heaven.
Jehovah is God's personal name. For some reason, it has been removed from many Bibles. It is, however, very evident in the oldest of existing manuscripts.
Jesus is God's son, just like he claimed to be, not God himself. Jesus too was created just like everything else, he is referred to in the Bible as the firstborn of creation. This means he was born, and had a beginning.
Why the name Jehovah's Witnesses?
Who else is Witnessing about Jehovah, The God, the author of the Bible?
The name is based on a passage in Isaiah.
There is, of course, a good deal more. I don't want to offend anyone.
Ask a Witness and they'll tell you.

 

[greenLED]

Re: Jehovah's witness encounter

Thank you, Alard and Empath for educating me on some of The Witnesses' facts. The details of both of your posts are truly intriguing and I will be finding more about them. Thank you.

 

[Empath]

Interesting reply, Empath, and somewhat different than what I have been told by my Witness friends.

Is this a personal view of the beliefs (are you a Witness?) Or is this what is officially epsoused by Witnesses and perhaps misunderstood by my friends? (My friends have never told me they were ordained ministers! Guess I have to have a long talk with them!) Or is this an accumulation of experiences on your part that is leavened by study?

Do Witnesses therefore see Christ as their Savior, if so, what relationship does he have to Jehovah?

Bill

No, I'm not part of any organized religious organization, although I may selectively pick the pockets of many, so to speak.

I doubt that your friends are confused as to their ordination. They likely wouldn't go around calling attention to it though. They don't even use the title "Reverend", which means "awe inspiring". They'd consider such as arrogance and a "lording" over one another. Their congregations have no pastor, nor a clergy/lay arrangement. They generally have a rotating elder, and ministerial servant arrangement, that take care of the needs of the congregation. Sermons might be given by any particular member, or visiting minister from other congregations. Their services include heavy congregational participation in study, and includes ministerial schooling to improve their skills. Part of the ministry is door-to-door, with the primary object being to find those attracted enough to seriously study the Bible. The "Bible studies" are designed to not only provide formative teachings, but to also provide the education and skills to qualify for ordination. Ordination comes along with baptism.

Their view of Jesus is that he was the Christ, a fleshly incarnation of Jehovah's firstborn son, and the first of all God's creation. They also believe he was born to a virgin without an earthly father, and that he ascended back into the heaven's after dying and being resurrected, and that he is the only intermediary between man and the heavenly Father.

Their view of the Biblical theme is one of "from paradise lost, to paradise returned", considering the idea that Jehovah's original plans are not dependent on mankind, the plan being to populate the earth with righteous people, living eternally with a close relationship with the Creator.

Alard, being a member, could provide you with much more regarding the Witnesses, than I. His training is in the ministry and details of the Witnesses' organization, not to mention that he is likely quite up-to-date in his information.

 

[Pydpiper]

My inital concern and reasoning behind it was to assure myself from your collective experiences that this form of religion isn't something that could get between my family, my wifes instincts of people are usually accurate, and she thinks they are great people, these two anyways..

Thanks for keeping this civil and open minded..

 

[bwaites]

I have never met a Witness that I thought was deceptive or mean spirited. They are evangelistic, seeking to spread their version of the intrepretation of scripture.

They as a rule, are more moral, more concerned about others, and trying to be and do more good than the population as a whole. I admire that.

I have had many conversations with them, though, and they have never mentioned the ordination thing, so that is very interesting. Our conversations about religion have been wide ranging and inclusive, so I am surprised by it.

They are GOOD people, and volunteer in the community often, and I am impressed by their sincerity to help others.

I know that many local religions do not consider them Christian, but neither do those churches consider Mormons Christian, and the very name of THAT church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"!!

Small minded people, I guess!

Bill

 

[PhotonWrangler]

They are GOOD people, and volunteer in the community often, and I am impressed by their sincerity to help others.

Ihave known some Jehova's Witnesses and have found them to be well-intended and sincere people. On the other hand, I have foudn some of their HQ's "policies" to be questionable. I will leave it at that.

When someone comes knocking on your door, remembe rthat you NEVER owe a stranger an explanation for saying "no thanks." You are entitled to your own decisions without having to justify them to strangers. It's hard to do this and it's taken me many years to be able to do so (and I still find myself slipping sometimes), but practice it and it becomes easier after awhile.

 

[elgarak]

I gues I'm with PhotonWrangler on this one. I would even add a "highly" to the questionable. I guess I should not say more without getting be accused of faith bashing. Suffice to say that I would not stay married to a member of them.

Maybe my opinion has something to do with me growing up in Germany, where some of their "policies" are flat-out illegal.

 

[alard]

Jehovah's Witness encounter

Elgarak and Photon,
Can you state your problems with Jehovah's Witnesses 'policies' in the form of a question?

There should be no problem in discussing these things in an objective fashion.
As an 'insider', perhaps I can shed some light. You are certainly entitled to your views. An interchange of information can sometimes help in understanding and tolerating others' beliefs.

I would be glad to help. Having been at odds with mainstream thinking for years, I have learned to be objective about others' beliefs, in order to get along.
Also, now I'm really curious, what is it about their 'policies' that is illegal in Germany?

 

[elgarak]

About Germany and laws: Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to refuse vaccinations for their children on ground of religious beliefs. Certain vaccinations are required by law and cannot be refused.

They also are not allowed to "preach" their beliefs in public. Basically, they are only allowed to stand there and holding up the "Watchtower" or "Awake". They cannot open a conversation with any passers-by (of course, passers-by can start a conversation with them).

There are more regulations with regards to medical treatments, for which I do not specifics well enough.

 

[PhotonWrangler]

Re: Jehovah's Witness encounter

Elgarak and Photon,
Can you state your problems with Jehovah's Witnesses 'policies' in the form of a question?

There should be no problem in discussing these things in an objective fashion.
As an 'insider', perhaps I can shed some light. You are certainly entitled to your views. An interchange of information can sometimes help in understanding and tolerating others' beliefs.

I would be glad to help. Having been at odds with mainstream thinking for years, I have learned to be objective about others' beliefs, in order to get along.
Also, now I'm really curious, what is it about their 'policies' that is illegal in Germany?

I would rather not discuss my findings in public; I do not want to create any shouting matches here. Suffice it to say that what I found out was unpleasant, and it was something that I found in print from one of those magazines.

 

[C4LED]

I'm just curious, if anyone can answer, is there a minumum percentage of a member's income that's required or requested to be a part of this religion?

I've hear that this is the case for some other religions.

 

[PhotonWrangler]

I'm just curious, if anyone can answer, is there a minumum percentage of a member's income that's required or requested to be a part of this religion?

I've hear that this is the case for some other religions.

The last I checked they did not do tithing; donations were voluntary. You might be thinking of the Mormons. They support tithing where a member donates ~10% of their gross earnings to their church.

 

[C4LED]

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[Sean]

Re: Jehovah's witness encounter

For instance, while many have been taught that man has an immortal soul, and, that this soul goes either to heaven or hell after death, depending on the type of life led. Careful reading of the Bible, without preconceptions, reveals that this doctrine is neither stated nor implied. Without quoting chapter and verse, which you can get if you care to ask a Witness:
You are a soul, when you die, you are dead.
Hell is an invention of man. In the Bible, fire is used to indicate destruction. Hades is often mistranslated as Hell, where Hades really means, simply, the grave to which all eventually go.
The hope held out by Jesus is that of eternal life as a human on the earth.
That is what a resurrection is, bringing a person back to life.
This idea of life in paradise is stated often and quoted by Jesus himself. Paradise means garden, not some place in heaven. A select few do go to heaven, Jesus being the first of these. Those will comprise a government over all things, including earth. This is the Kingdom often spoken about that will bring God's will to the earth as it is in heaven.

While you are correct in saying Hell is misunderstood, Jesus gave a good picture of Hades in Luke 16. One man went to torment, the other rest. Both died, still existed in some form, but the resurrection had not yet ocurred.

Jehovah is God's personal name. For some reason, it has been removed from many Bibles. It is, however, very evident in the oldest of existing manuscripts.

Actually, the Hebrew old testament uses the letters hwhy, in english it's YHWH. Also known as the Tetragrammaton, the unspeakable 4 letters. This has been transliterated several ways into English. Adonai YHWH is usually translated LORD GOD in the modern translations. Jehovah comes from the combination of the two:

Dr. J. B. Rotherham states in the preface of his Bible concerning Jehovah: "Erroneously written and pronounced Jehovah, which is merely a combination of the sacred Tetragrammaton and the vowels in the Hebrew word for Lord, substituted by the Jews for JHVH, because they shrank from pronouncing The Name, owing to an old misconception of the two passages, Ex. 20:7 and Lev. 24:16...To give the name JHVH the vowels of the word for Lord [Heb. Adonai], is about as hybrid a combination as it would be to spell the name Germany with the vowels in the name Portugal - viz., Gormuna. The monstrous combination Jehovah is not older than about 1520 A.D."

Jesus is God's son, just like he claimed to be, not God himself. Jesus too was created just like everything else, he is referred to in the Bible as the firstborn of creation. This means he was born, and had a beginning.
Why the name Jehovah's Witnesses?
Who else is Witnessing about Jehovah, The God, the author of the Bible?
The name is based on a passage in Isaiah.
There is, of course, a good deal more. I don't want to offend anyone.
Ask a Witness and they'll tell you.

Well the original Greek text of Colossians 1:15-18 places Jesus before all things and the creator of all things. I would implore both of us to ignore our English translations and look at the original Greek text.

Jesus being firstborn is misunderstood by many, including trinitarians.
Jesus being the firstborn is not a reference to His creation but to His resurrection as stated in the same passage Colossians 1:15-18. This is also stated in Revelation 1:5 and Acts 13:33.

And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, "'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'

Jesus being begotten (according the Paul himself) is a reference to His being raised from the dead, not His creation.

alard,
If you would like to discuss this further, PM me or we can go to the underground. I don't want Sasha comin' after me.

 

[Saaby]

Re: Jehovah's witness encounter

You might be thinking of the Mormons. They support tithing where a member donates ~10% of their gross earnings to their church.

Suggested. Not required. You could donate much less than 10% and say you were donating 10%, all accountability is placed on you. They're not the IRS, they don't check your personal accounts.

 

[geepondy]

Re: Jehovah's Witness encounter

You're right, it was a bit abrupt of a statement and I apologize. But yes as time went on, religious indifferences extremely complicated their marriage. Probably marriages have a much better shot if the two parties have somewhat similar religious views to start off with but I suppose the same could be said for other common views and interests as well.

I like hearing about the different religions and beliefs. I work with an Indian engineer who grew up in India and he firmly believes after you will die, you will be reincarnated until "you get it right" or something to that effect. I hope he's right!

To be fair, although I don't know your friends, it seems unlikely that this is the real reason for their divorce. People who love each other don't divorce over each persons choice of religion. Additionally, Jehovah's Witnesses will usually only divorce on the basis of adultery, because the Bible generally does not allow for divorce on other grounds.

So many people divorce these days for other reasons, it is easier to believe that your friends divorced for other reasons, perhaps complicated by religious differences.

 

[alard]

Jehovah's Witness encounter

Sean,
My post was in answer to a direct question. It was not my intention to debate.
Someone wanted to know what we believe that the Bible really teaches.

We both obviously have dearly held beliefs. I won't debate. Just this once I will address two of your issues with my post.

Jesus spoke in illustrations. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was not literal. Among other things, it makes no sense that people go to Hell just because they are rich. What was he really trying to teach?

God's name is pronounced differently in nearly every language, just as Jesus' name is pronounced differently in nearly every language. "Jehovah" is the most widely accepted rendering in English. "Jesus" is the most widely accepted rendering for "Yeshua" in English.

This was for the benefit of other readers.
On other issues, the Bible speaks for itself.
Next time someone knocks, you can talk to them about it all.

 

[alard]

Re: Jehovah's Witness encounter

I would rather not discuss my findings in public; I do not want to create any shouting matches here. Suffice it to say that what I found out was unpleasant, and it was something that I found in print from one of those magazines.

I respect your desire to avoid confrontation.
Whatever it may be that you find so unpleasant in the magazines is not a secret.

The Watchtower, for instance, is published in 151 languages, and distributed throughout the world with an average printing of 26 million+.
"Awake" magazine has an even larger distribution.
As everyone knows, Witnesses are only too happy to give these magazines to anyone who would like to read them.

 

[Ledean]

Very informative links.
It has answered a lot of questions I had about them.

most important thing to do would be to chat with your wife about it I suppose. Is she just being nice to them because she doesn't want to be rude? If she tells them that she's done talking to them, thank you but dont come back, they wont. But they are obviously gearing up cause they have found a sympathetic ear.

Wikipedia has a decent article on them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses

and there are plenty of sites dedicated to being a little more alarmist. But it sometimes helps a lot to read about the entire belief system all at once. What they might tell you a little at a time and make sound plausible can sound really ludicrous if you read it all in one sitting without the people there to "explain" things.

here are a couple of others, I haven't read in detail, so I dont know how they figure. Be careful though of making them out to be too evil, as your wife obviously has an interest in these nice folks and is unlikely to consider them truly evil and that might backfire on you.

http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/80/story_8034_1.html
http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/

Some are just informational some are for people trying to get out. My only experience with them was through a very dear friend who took many years to get herself sorted out and happy again after leaving their faith and being completely shut out by her family.

 

[alard]

Jehovah's Witnesses

Very informative links.
It has answered a lot of questions I had about them.

Anti-Witness websites can hardly be expected to provide accurate and objective information.