LED lights from a cavers viewpoint

[gajslk]

So I have a question that has come up in a few of my conversations about LED lights with other cavers, both DIY and mass manufactured. How come most mass manufactured lights (surefire, petzl,BD, PT) have ABS plastic housings and most DIY or Small scale production lights are anodized aluminum?

Plastic housings require expensive tooling to be cut for the injection molds. That's stupid expensive and unless you're aiming for the mass market, you'll never recoup your costs.

Gordon

 

[karstonaut]

Thats what I thought. It makes sense.

 

[eh4]

Failing ABS, the field seems wide open for one time custom builds with all of the fiberglass, epoxies and silicons available to the hobbyist... Kind of the reverse in a way for a one off, as lathing, milling and anodizing aluminum is a daunting proposition without extensive machinery and experience.

 

[Gregozedobe]

In the not too distant future I expect one-offs and very small production runs will be much easier in plastic by using the makerbot type plastic printers.

Alu is easy to machine, and has good heat absorption/dissipation properties, so is well suited to LEDs that produce a bit of heat.

 

[karstonaut]

Beat me to my own punchline! I am a metalsmith by trade, and know what goes into the milling of metal. Not bad if I was just making one for myself, I like machining and tapping and milling. But I have been having so much fun working with a 3D printer that a friend bought (MakerBot) that I was looking into the thermal qualities of ABS and if I could use it with high power LEDs. I know more about making machines and tinkering then I do about electronics, but im trying to learn. Why isn't there a damn book titled "LED circuitry for Idiots"!

 

[127.0.0.1]

I understand that it seems most everyone here loves the zebralight, but it really is more of a flashlight than a headlamp and more of a backup than a primary for a caver. What is the lumens for the medium 1? And if I need to tape the battery closure to have peace of mind then it is no where near as robust than I would hope for. But I am getting off post here...

really ? a zebralight h600 18650 and a zebralight h501 AA as backup is pretty much an awesome setup, put them both on the same strap.

zebralights will not flop, have no cords, are wicked light, the 600 will blast the lumens in 8 different levels......I do not understand why anyone would want old-school headlamps with umbilicals any more. or pay more than 90 bucks for a headlamp.
IMHO zebralight physical properties (weight, impossible to flop) and the lighting capabilities and robusteness
and waterproofness ...it has so much going for it. which is why I have 5 of them.

 

[karstonaut]

Well I am interesting so I will try one, they look good. I would need to create a bracket to attach it to the helmet and give it some tilt action, im not all about any strap on my helmet, just personal preference. But then again I like to make my own stuff, everything from sewing to machining, so ill probably just end up making my own light and housing for my primary helmet light. I take it you cant just go into a store and buy those 18650 batteries? Like a hardware store or, oh the horror, Wal-mart?

And to get back to what I was originally asking, with all these high powered LEDs now, will ABS plastic hold up to the heat generated? The heat sink is the only thing worrying me about using the 3D printer, I cant print aluminum! Thanks for all the help and replies on the thread everyone!

 

[uk_caver]

Mounting an LED directly onto ABS wouldn't allow much heatsinking, but an internal metal heatsink either heating up a decent area of a plastic case directly by conduction, or heating air inside which could then heat a decent area of the case could be usable, depending on the case&heatsink size, and the desired power level.

Alternatively, it might be possible to fit an external heatsink and have some thermal connection to the LEDs on the inside of a plastic case, like a copper/aluminium stud or a heatpipe passing through holes in the plastic

Or to make a plastic 'case' which was backless, and which mounted onto a metal backplate which the LEDs were attached to - making the plastic part effectively just a waterproof holder for the switch[es] and the front lens.
Or some combination of similar ideas.

 

[karstonaut]

Thanks for the info UK. Thats what I was thinking, some kind of thermal connection by using conductive pathways from the LED through the ABS to an aluminum heatsink. I just didnt know if that was crazy talk! Ill post some images as things progress.

 

[AnAppleSnail]

Thanks for the info UK. Thats what I was thinking, some kind of thermal connection by using conductive pathways from the LED through the ABS to an aluminum heatsink. I just didnt know if that was crazy talk! Ill post some images as things progress.

I don't see why you can't encapsulate a metal heatsink in thin (Pending thermal expansion) ABS. You CAN 3D-print metal with laser-sintering, but it requires 20+ watt lasers to do.

 

[karstonaut]

Yeah, I know you CAN, but I CANT because I don't have those funds. Though I saw in an article Jay Leno's 15,000$ 3D printer he uses to manufacture discontinued parts for his private vehicular fleet! I would think the coefficient of expansion between the the aluminum and the ABS would not be compatible but who knows, I may luck out.

 

[karstonaut]

Looks like the cube 3D printer folks have some of those metal printers.

 

[jeffkruse]

I have the Spark SD6. I like it. I wish it was optimized for only one cell. I also don't like that it gives full power untill the batterys protection shuts it off. I also wish it was .5 mm longer so my 3100mAH readilast would fit better.

I also use a Zebralight SC600w and love it!

I would like a caving headlamp to have a switch for each LED. Hi, med, low. I don't want to double click or scroll through 5 or more settings to get the combo I want. I also don't want it to have a memory. The switches on the Zebralight and Spark work well for me.

I also want it optimized for one cell either proteced or not.

 

[eh4]

How about JB Weld and regular old clear two part epoxy?
JB Weld for when you need to rough out a part like play dough and the epoxy for when you want to pour it into a mold.

And if you don't feel like slumming there is always fiberglass and carbon fiber.

 

[Justintoxicated]

I have the Spark SD6. I like it. I wish it was optimized for only one cell. I also don't like that it gives full power untill the batterys protection shuts it off. I also wish it was .5 mm longer so my 3100mAH readilast would fit better.

I also use a Zebralight SC600w and love it!

I would like a caving headlamp to have a switch for each LED. Hi, med, low. I don't want to double click or scroll through 5 or more settings to get the combo I want. I also don't want it to have a memory. The switches on the Zebralight and Spark work well for me.

I also want it optimized for one cell either proteced or not.

With the zebralight it has memory, but can be easily overridden to immediately jump to any of the 3brightness main brightness settings. Perhaps a Headlamp with both a switch and some QTC added would make for a nice light, although with QTC I find that brightness changes a bit as the pad slowly continues to compresses (maybe not having a spring would help).

 

[Hooked on Fenix]

Have you guys taken a look at the Petzl Pixa Pro headlights? They aren't the brightest, but work on AAs and by the specs, it looks as though they're made to take a beating.

 

[yellow]

- too long,
- too complex,
- too boring, and again:
- too long posts
(from the op)



caving is:

* tourist state: visiting a cave --> ANY light will do. Headlamp a plus. Batteries totally ok. Zebralight the best overall

* real cave visiting:
one: short distance, loooooong runtime illumination: no alternative to the benefits of carbide
(where the "exploding" part is a joke. Tested and proven for ages. That Your dad used one as a miner does explain everything, or not?).
only con: needs water source
two: further reach but not so long timed illumination: battery powered lights work here. Led now offering so many positives, that they are the technique to use
three: last ditch emergency illumination ... small and rugged ... led + battery

in case of the battery powered lamp, there is nothing to be found that is better than an 18650 ... making the H600 again #1 recommendation

 

[Mooreshire]

I skeptically can't wait to get my hands on a Petzl NAO - it sounds downright bizarre to relinquish dimming control to a sensor, but plugging my headlamp into my computer for a quick reprogramming sounds like a geek caver's wet dream. Strap and housing do look like a cave would eat them and spit them out rather quickly though, and who knows what the damn thing would start doing if you got mud on the sensor.

I love the full range dimming of my room-mate's Black Diamond Storm - wish the whole 'hold button down until desired brightness is attained' approach was more common.

Kavelight coming my way soon, hopefully complete with paired flood and spot drop-ins with customized programming. I've conceived of a bright six-mode setup that starts with increasing only-flood modes and then drops the flood back down as you kick in the spot only to bring it back up a again as you move towards something unusably bright. Totally psyched.

Right now I cave with a modified Duo with combined flood and spot diodes and crazy supplemental RGB "party light" for the kids (and by kids I mean immature old me). Backup headlamp is a new ZebraLight H600W which I consider a mind-blowingly exquisite piece of gear. Random XP-G 1xAA flashlight gets stashed in the odd wrist pocket on my cave-suit. 3-point (or single source if it's a squeezy cave) lighting for video has been some 3-up XP-G tripod-mountable arrays I whipped together right before the sexy Blind Bat hit the market making my rigs look like crap.

I do still like the Apex Pro enough to suggest it, especially if one resists the urge to use the nice brightest mode that drinks your batteries dry in a matter of minutes.

If I had a dollar for every helmet I've seen sporting an awkwardly attached bicycle light or two, or a cluster of protruding flashlights, or a triple stack of little hiking headlamps all in an attempt to fend off the darkness of our local black-walled lava tubes... :-D

I have no plans to ever take even my modern Petzl Aceto carbide lamp underground ever again, bless it's warm stinky little heart. My father's caving carbide lamp and my grandfather's mining carbide lamp are lovingly displayed on the mantle, but also are destined to only ever be fired up again for educational/nostalgia purposes.

And yes, I do regularly rock this out as I'm moving through a cave:
[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=diCzUXvBUGI[/video]

 

[eh4]

Mooreshire, what a cool little video... That must be a blast in a cave. Everything old is new again. Never knew about RGB modules.

 

[spelunkik]

I currently cave with a Zebralight H600w as my primary. I love it! I fully submerse it after every caving trip to clean it, so it's definitely as waterproof as advertized. It's insanely lightweight compared to what I'm used to. Not having an electric cable to catch on things is a HUGE plus for me, or a bulky battery pack for that matter. One battery charge lasts forever... when the high mode is used in moderation. It puts out an immense amount of light, and it makes all my caving buddies go "wow" (even the Stenlight users), which is one of the main reasons I bought it . Most of the time, the lower of the two middle settings is more than enough light for me, so I can theoretically do five 10 hour trips on one single charge! That's unheard of! And if the light is running low and I was too lazy to recharge, all I have to do is put another battery in it and away I go!

I did have an electronic malfunction a few weeks after buying it, but it was quickly repaired by Zebralight, and I still fully trust it with my life underground as much as any other light out there. Being constrained to only one beam type is new to me (I am used to the versatility of an Apex), but I quickly grew accustomed to the change. Perhaps the only things I wish I could improve about this light are the ease of self-modding (how the heck would I ever be able to replace the LED once it becomes outdated?) and perhaps widening the beam angle some more, however, I see myself being very satisfied with this light for years to come. I hate spending money on things, but I don't regret investing in a H600w at all.

By the way, cave digging is my passion as well. Dig on, brother! I Hope you get some glorious virgin booty, and I hope you find the perfect light for you!!