N30 Battery replacement options **** UPDATED ****

[LiteShow]

**** UPDATE ****

I took apart the N30 Battery and found that out of the 11 Nimh sub-c cells, there was only 1 bad cell. The bad cell was the last one in series connected to the negative side. If I by-pass that cell - I was able to fire up HID. I even tried by-passing 2 cells (using only 9 cells) and was still able to fire it up. I guess I could maybe just replace the single bad cell and I'll be back in business without spending too much $$$

**** UPDATE ****


My N30 batteries are dead - not enough juice to start the HID bulb - just flickers and dies. Tried the light with a 12 volt SLA and it turns on fine. So now I have to get replacement batteries. I can think of 2 options:

(1) Replace with 12 sub-C Nimh. (E.g Tenergy 5000mah sub-c)

Northern Lights rebuilt his with 12 nimh instead of the the original 11. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...30-HID-rebuilt-5-Ah-72-watt-pack-and-upgrades

Pros:
Similar as existing setup - drop in replacement (just adding one extra battery) - using existing charger
Larger capacity: If I get the 5000mah sub-c, that would be 5000 X 14.4 = 72000 Wh

Cons:
Too much self discharge
Heavier ( approx 852 grams)

(2) Replace with 4 26650 IMR (e.g Batteryspace IMR 26650 4000mah)

Pros:
Lighter (approx 360 grams),
Low self discharge

Cons:
Less capacity - 14.8 X 4000 = 59200 Wh
Need a new charging system - smart charger to charge 4 IMR in series.


Would option 2 even work with the N30 HID ballast? Is the voltage too high?

Which would you guys choose? Do you guys have any other suggestions other than the 2 above?

Dennis

 

[Fusion_m8]

Re: N30 Battery replacement options

Would it just be better in the long term to buy a L35 Lithium Polymer battery pack from BatteryJunction that just slots straight in?

 

[BVH]

Re: N30 Battery replacement options

If the L35 battery is used, it should be determined at what Voltage the N30 ballast shuts down. If it's 9 Volts or above, (3.0 Volts per cell) then it is ok to use the L35 battery. If below, you risk over-discharging the Li-Ion cells. (Unless the L35 battery has LVC protection - I don't remember if it does.) The L35 battery is about 60 Watt hours versus the N30 at about 42 Watt hours so it will give more run time.

I don't think I'd risk my N30 ballast with the 16.8 peak Voltage of 4 Li-Ion's

 

[LiteShow]

Re: N30 Battery replacement options

Thanks guys. I guess using a L35 battery is an option. However, I'll have to buy the battery PLUS the charger, and that would quickly add the cost up. I think I saw somewhere in this forum that the cut-off voltage of the N30 ballast is 10.8V - so that is pretty safe - but was wondering if that's too high for the 11.1 volts of the L35 battery pack under load.

I am still preferring to just fix the existing battery pack. Any other ideas or comments?

 

[LiteShow]

Re: N30 Battery replacement options

**** UPDATE ****

I took apart the N30 Battery and found that out of the 11 Nimh sub-c cells, there was only 1 bad cell. The bad cell was the last one in series connected to the negative side. If I by-pass that cell - I was able to fire up HID. I even tried by-passing 2 cells (using only 9 cells) and was still able to fire it up. I guess I could maybe just replace the single bad cell and I'll be back in business without spending too much $$$

 

[Northern Lights]

Re: N30 Battery replacement options

Hellow everybody,
Imagine! I have been very inactive at CPF, (health problems) and when I looked up a solution for new packs for my N30 I find a brand new thread !! (double excitement) My previous packs are now all shot.

I am thinking about lithium in a non removable pack and maybe a built in charger.

Any hope for 3 or 4 of these cells in a pack for the N30? :

http://www.batteryspace.com/limnnirechargeable26650cell37v4000mah10arated148wh.aspx

LiMnNi Rechargeable 26650 Cell: 3.7V 4000 mAh, 10A rated 14.8Wh - UL Listed / UN Approved (NDGR)

I use these cells in a 14.9V pack in a 12V spot, a typical hot wire now: pictured as the yellow housing in this thread: thread.

I charge them on my BC6 at 5 amps! does not take long for a full charger and it is "safe" lithium too. Their flat discharge graph is great with direct drive p7's that have 3.7Vf too as that produces more lumens on those LEDs than DD the 3.6V liions on the Vf of 3.7, just because of the Vf match up. I use them in several of my P7 DD using TASKLED drivers also.

I have made a spare battery pack with these cells of 14.8 volts with 12V sockets to power any 12V spotlight on a 12V power cord making it an instant hot wire.

I should work up the lumen increase on the HOTRATER spread sheet and publish is as the newbies have not seen or used that old stand by for calculating hotwire lumens.

Back on topic:

Please help me with the drop outs, max. voltages of the ballast max discharge limits of the batts', can i use them in the N30?

Thank you,

NL.

 

[LiteShow]

Re: N30 Battery replacement options

Northern Lights, hope your health is better now! As for the topic, maybe you'll need to start a new tread with that question about the ballast in your topic. Here are my thoughts anyways...

You had previously used 12 nimh = 14.4 volts typical. However, a nimh would push around 1.4 volts each fully charged so that's 1.4 X 12 = 16.8 volts. That seem to work for you with the N30 ballast. So I am assuming 4 of the 26650 IMR should be ok (max voltage 4.2 X 4 = 16.8). This is just my assumption but I could be wrong, since the internal resistance is much lower on the IMR, which means the voltage of 4 IMR in series will sag much less under load than 12 Nimh in series, even though their no load voltage is similar. So I guess the question is whether having voltages that high will kill the ballast.

The other day, I noticed that the N30 kept on running until about 7.5 volts before the HID flickered and died. For Nimh, it is not too bad of a discharge per cell as they are pretty tolerant, but that being said. maybe this expalins why these N30 batteries don't seem to last very long. Anyway, for 4 IMR, this would mean < 2 volts per cell discharge - which is not recommended. May have to add some sought of low voltage cut-off I think. I guess 3 X 26650 IMR will definitely work (cut-off at 2.5 volts per cell) - but you are only getting approx (11.1 volts X 4000 mah) 44 Wh, which is about the same capacity as the original nimh pack.

I was toying with the idea of LiFepo4. At 3.2 volts, you'll have 12.8 volts for 4 cells. even with an initial Voltage of about 3.5 volts, it's still a max of 14 volts for 4 Lifepo4 in series - which I think is well within the safe range of the ballast that was designed to take 11 nimh in series. Downside is the capacity as the highest capacity I can find for a 26650 is around 3300 mah. I've seen 32900 (F size) Lifepo4 rated at 5000mah, and initial measurements suggest they will fit in the original N30 battery pack with some modifications and using a external charger. However, they are expensive. And you still have to low-voltage cut-off to deal with.

Anyway, currently I am running the N30 on only 10 nimh cells . After I removed the bad cell, I decided against adding a new cell because it was impossible to get one with similar capacity. I'll read enough warnings about using different rated capacities in series causing cell voltage reversal. So far the only problem running on 10 cells is that the charger does not seem to know when to shut off. I thought the original charger was some delta minus V type charger but it seems to also have a minimum voltage requirement. The voltage of the pack while charging goes from 12+ volts to a peak of 14.5 volts before dropping down to about 14.1 volts. So no automatic charging for now - I just have to keep watch on it and possibly risk some over-charging from time to time - which hopefully should not do too much damage at 1/6C charge current. It's a cheap/free solution to revive my N30 battery pack. Otherwise, runtime isn't terribly bad - I clocked 48 minutes on 10 fully charged cells.

 

[Northern Lights]

...

The other day, I noticed that the N30 kept on running until about 7.5 volts before the HID flickered and died. For Nimh, it is not too bad of a discharge per cell as they are pretty tolerant, but that being said. maybe this expalins why these N30 batteries don't seem to last very long. Anyway, for 4 IMR, this would mean < 2 volts per cell discharge - which is not recommended. May have to add some sought of low voltage cut-off I think. I guess 3 X 26650 IMR will definitely work (cut-off at 2.5 volts per cell) - but you are only getting approx (11.1 volts X 4000 mah) 44 Wh, which is about the same capacity as the original nimh pack...

Thanks for the discussion, I find these cells to be everything they are said to be, my thought is to do away with the pack and use the cavity of the lantern. Off top of my head I think a I can get 6 of these in there, I can run a 8000mAh parallel pack. I would charge it on a harness of taps. These cells charge on a Lipo charger and my BC 6 has a harness and I can easily charge the pack with this built in balancer.

You confirm the numbers I came up with so next step is to take some of these cells I have here and see if a 6X pack will fit the shell.

My last pack working is made with titaniums, 5000mAh, 12 of them. When the cells charge up correctly I get 75 minutes run time. I doubt the lantern is running at 57 Wh or the pack is putting out 72 Wh, again it suggests the cells are bad and I have maybe 40-45 Wh available in my current pack.

I am having great difficulty in getting the pack to do that consistantly without several discharging conditioning cycles on the BC 6 therefore I believe the cells are damaged.

And thanks for the kind wishes, looks like I am getting into a forced retirement. Maybe I will have time to take up RC, Hot Wires , LEDs and some competitive shooting and start my childhood over again! We can always hope...

I could be fishing if it all works out.

 

[Northern Lights]

LITESHOW!

How did it work out?

I still have not got the solution, I find that for under $40 I can get delivered SLA 12V up to 109 Wh, proportional to cost.

I think with a couple straps I am going to put a 12V SLA on this light, so I am asking how did the 12V work with yours?

Additionally the Vector I posted about is Kaput. So am also looking for a generic rechargeable spot light, 12V with reasonable throw to augment the N30. Any suggestions?

...and I did get forced into retirement.

 

[Northern Lights]

LITESHOW!

How did it work out?

I still have not got the solution, I find that for under $40 I can get delivered SLA 12V up to 109 Wh, proportional to cost.

I think with a couple straps I am going to put a 12V SLA on this light, so I am asking how did the 12V work with yours?

Additionally the Vector I posted about is Kaput. So am also looking for a generic rechargeable spot light, 12V with reasonable throw to augment the N30. Any suggestions?

...and I did get forced into retirement.

Gone, no more N30! Do not use an SLA 12V, get a lower voltage SLA and you maybe alright.

Lost another $25 on it too.

Hooked it up to a SLA 7.0 Ah, taped it to the bottom and soldered in the leads but before that hooked up with jumpers and ran the HID about 15 seconds 2 times. After finishing it turned it on and nothing...

The ballast is Kaput, dead and I think the 12V SLA at 13.75 did not sag like the NiMh pack I built did. So it was too much, too many Volts on input.

Now I get to buy another HID, lets see... An L30 or Peak or Stanley, what will it be...

 

[FRITZHID]

Gone, no more N30! Do not use an SLA 12V, get a lower voltage SLA and you maybe alright.

Lost another $25 on it too.

Hooked it up to a SLA 7.0 Ah, taped it to the bottom and soldered in the leads but before that hooked up with jumpers and ran the HID about 15 seconds 2 times. After finishing it turned it on and nothing...

The ballast is Kaput, dead and I think the 12V SLA at 13.75 did not sag like the NiMh pack I built did. So it was too much, too many Volts on input.

Now I get to buy another HID, lets see... An L30 or Peak or Stanley, what will it be...

sorry to hear about your N30 how big of an HID are you looking to get?

 

[Northern Lights]

Gone, no more N30! Do not use an SLA 12V, get a lower voltage SLA and you maybe alright.

Lost another $25 on it too.

Hooked it up to a SLA 7.0 Ah, taped it to the bottom and soldered in the leads but before that hooked up with jumpers and ran the HID about 15 seconds 2 times. After finishing it turned it on and nothing...

The ballast is Kaput, dead and I think the 12V SLA at 13.75 did not sag like the NiMh pack I built did. So it was too much, too many Volts on input.

Now I get to buy another HID, lets see... An L30 or Peak or Stanley, what will it be...

sorry to hear about your N30 how big of an HID are you looking to get?

Oh, I got a Stanley and then...

It will not turn on just like many others reported on cpf and youtube, rats!

So I am taking it back to Pep Boys in a few minutes.

I am retired and costs are not a biggie, I learned that while exploring lasers. Was looking at all the ways to convert lasers and found I could buy modules for @ $50. That is what happened to my "modding" too. You can see I have a history of modding some original ideas but it all was to build a "better mouse trap" not for the fun and joy of creating and building it was more less needs driven. I wanted lumens.T

Then the Chinese market exploded with stuff that was exactly what I was going to build. And a lot cheaper.

For years I carried the idea of taking the twin Vector model that used either a H2 or H4 base and putting a HID headlight kit in it. I have seen that on cpf and I like the sound and sight of 4000-8000 lumens in a spotlight. Utility wise anything reasonable to use around 3000-4000 lumens is likely what I will settle on, hence the Stanley. The Peak big spotlight is only a halogen and puts out only 675 lumens. It is not HID.

What I mean I would like to keep it near $50 but $200 is not out of the question. Quality not quantity.

Watt ya thinkin'?

 

[FRITZHID]

well, the stanley is most like a batt issue, since alot of them sat on shelves with SLAs in them for prolonged periods of time, killing the SLA.
i was asking about size, in physical dimensions, how big/small of a light do u want, not in wattage.
if physical size is not that much of in issue, i have something you may like

 

[Northern Lights]

well, the stanley is most like a batt issue, since alot of them sat on shelves with SLAs in them for prolonged periods of time, killing the SLA.
i was asking about size, in physical dimensions, how big/small of a light do u want, not in wattage.
if physical size is not that much of in issue, i have something you may like

NOthing larger than max-beam, Stanley, N30 are ideal but a little larger is interesting...

Watt ya got?

 

[FRITZHID]

NOthing larger than max-beam, Stanley, N30 are ideal but a little larger is interesting...

Watt ya got?

well, THIS might be a little to big for what your looking for, but IDK.

 

[Northern Lights]

well, THIS might be a little to big for what your looking for, but IDK.

Yes, that is just off the scale on the too large side, but it may be ok for a plaything at a later time. I need the HID for field use, headed north into MT this weekend so right this very minute I am out the door to hunt down another stanley.

Thank you very much, I certainly am considering it, but for a later time.

NL

 

[FRITZHID]

ah, no prob. you may be able to just find a new SLA for your stanley, if you can't find one thats working right. i got lucky and mine is still working just like the day i bought it... that was over 2 yrs now.... i think... lol.
the stanleys not a bad lil light, i like it, just a shame it got such a bad rep because of storage issues. i'm thinking i may put a warmer bulb into mine tho... already did the LEDs.
GL!

 

[Northern Lights]

Bought three (3) Stanleys in the last two days from Pep Boys.

Two did not work right out of the box, light stayed green from the start and HID would not turn on but it would work off the 12V cord when plugged in.

So ran around exchanging until I have one that appears to be charging correctly, the LED flashes red.

Tomorrow I leave on a trip and take it with, hope it works.

 

[FRITZHID]

GL & have a safe trip!