Polarion Price Increases?

[BVH]

Hey Windy, we do have a bit more in common than our love of lights. I had a SevenCycles Ti Axiom built for my unusual size back in 2003. When I "pull the plug" in 6/08, I plan on taking 4 or so months to ride across the U.S. I think you're too far south for the northernish route I want to take, But I'll wave anyway - or maybe by that time, I'll have a 500 Watt HID the size of a RAW and I can shine the beam at a predetermined time. Sorry, Bill, for further hijacking your thread but at least I said something about HID lights

 

[bhj1]

This post is getting a "little" more mileage than I anticipated. I have to admit that it was my frustration with the seemingly ridiculous Polarion price increases that prompted me to post at all. My reasoning behind publicly "calling out" Ken on this issue was this: The Polarion lights have been heavily promoted by Ken on this forum and this in turn has produced a lot of forum talk on the lights. That's exactly what this forum is about, talking flashlights! Isn't that why we're all here?

The promotion thing is also a part of this forum board. But I believe that if a product is promoted here publicly, then it's entirley appropriate to publicly inquire about unsolicited, large price increases.

Litedisorder politely stated that I should PM Ken. That was a good idea and I did send Ken a PM. Instead of replying via a PM Ken publicly replied on this thread.

The Polarion lights are nice and I fully expected to purchase one. That is before the price increase. This is a free market and Ken has every right to charge whatever he wants for the Polarion lights. If I decide not to get a Polarion I can get "several" other HID lights. This is not a bad option either. The thought of a few other lights is actually exciting. Sure I'll miss not getting a Polarion, but I'll survive. My decision is going to be more about principle than any other factor. They'll turn up on the used market sometime.

Ken's statement that it's up to the consumer to decide is completely correct, and I respect him for it.

LuxLuther questioned why no one is asking about Mac's troubles with his new Polarion light. Maybe we're all just blinded by the Polarion light? The reality is that the Polarion lights will have their issues just as any other high-tech piece of equipment.

Bill

 

[mtbkndad]

I have one final thought that is demonstrated well in the difference between XeVision and Polarion as I see it.
XeVision is, I believe, a fairly small company as corporations go. I mean that in a good way.
When you call to talk about a XeRay you get Dan who is responsible for these lights.
Ken is the US distributor for Polarion. When you call and talk to Ken you are talking to the distributor who also sells to dealers.
What I am getting at is he may not have had anything to do with this price increase.
He, as the US distributor, may merely have been told the price is going up and then had to pass it on.

I am just an outsider looking in or these would have never been priced at $1,595 in the first place , but I do believe it is not fair to hold the distributor responsible for the price increase without knowing whether or not his prices went up.
I do know Ken is a person of very high integrity and I do believe he is NOT the kind of the kind of person that would raise prices just to raise prices.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

 

[LITEDISORDER]

I think everyone here knows that I like the polarions.But I also have Boxer+ AE HID lights which I also like very much. The thing that makes me like the Helios+ X1 so much is the instant on, and I do mean instant. The others take up to 30 seconds to come up to full brightness. To me a flashlight that you have to wait on to light up is hard to get used to. Do any of the other lights have true instant on. If so I would be interested in them also. All the high end lights are pretty close to brightness- throw-beam quality-ect. But how many have instant on.

 

[LuxLuthor]

mtbkndad, "Me thinks thou doth [continue] protest[ing] too much." (my apologies to altering Shakespeare's original words)

You are further assuming that my "Polarion Plants" joking comments refers only to this one thread, which would be an incorrect assumption. I do find it quite puzzling why you have decided to "go ballistic" about my comments which are not personally directed.

I feel I am much more objective about pointing out problems, issues, high prices, etc. with a number of these lights, including raising a number of issues about the very two XeRay lights I have purchased. I find it extremely odd when challenging my objectivity, that a quick review of all your posts on the various Helios and X-1 threads, seem to be 100% Pro-Polarion....as is the case with some others posting about the lineup.

No matter what anyone raises as an issue, or challenges to an explanation (i.e. my previous responses about the military/govt. agencies sole market), there seems to be a "Pro-Polarion" answer about everything....with even a few more negative reminders again thrown in about XeRay shortcomings...LOL!

Now maybe you honestly believe that every single aspect of every single Polarion that ever comes out is absolutely perfect, and of course the price should now be much higher in recognition...but after a while the lack of criticism that has been so ever present in previous shootouts and posts about other lights seems to be glaringly missing with this Polarion product line. Even the recent shootout raised more questions than answers about objectivity....leading to an ultra-complex re-shooting with even more Pro-Polarion comments...and dissing the prototype XeRay reflector.

And you now bring up some vague inference of reporting my posts to a moderator....oh that was rich. LOL! Go ahead....but I think my comments have been calm, objective, and backed up by sound reasoning. I have even said that knowing Ken is a Navy Seal elevates him to a near God status for me.

Believe it or not, I'm trying to actually be objective....as there are many aesthetic features to appreciate about the Helios and X-1, which I have stated. There are also many drawbacks to them when compared to other lights.

:touche:

 

[LITEDISORDER]

I shure do like the LED battery guage also. I' just sturring the pot, (SORRY)

 

[XeRay]

I think everyone here knows that I like the polarions.But I also have Boxer+ AE HID lights which I also like very much. The thing that makes me like the Helios+ X1 so much is the instant on, and I do mean instant. The others take up to 30 seconds to come up to full brightness. To me a flashlight that you have to wait on to light up is hard to get used to. Do any of the other lights have true instant on. If so I would be interested in them also. All the high end lights are pretty close to brightness- throw-beam quality-etc. But how many have instant on.

NO "Metal Halide" type HID of any kind offers instant on to full brightness, Helios is this type of HID. All of this HID family (Not Xenon short arc) have a warm up period of varying degrees. Some take as much as 30 seconds as you have indicated. In the 35-40 watt market they typically take 10-20 seconds. The faster it is done the harder it is on both ballast and bulb. To get quicker warm up the HID must be overdriven to speed the process. The highest overdrive rates I have seen are about 100-110 bulb watts and quickly ramping down from there, that is 3X steady state wattage. Philips, Osram and GE who make the quality bulbs (Helios uses Osram) have done their testing. They do not recommend the initial overdrive wattage go beyond 100-110 bulb watts maximum and very quickly ramping down from there as the internal arc impedance (internal resistance) of the plasma changes toward a stabilized steady state. None of the ballasts offered by Philips or Osram overdrive beyond this point and Philips pushes it the farthest to about 105 bulb watts or so on one of their ballast products. If someone is claiming full output instantly and this visually appears close to being true, then there is a "price to be paid" for this in bulb life, ballast life and possibly even battery life when pulling 10+ amps for a few seconds from the Li Ion battery pack. Now, for emergency or some tactical situations, I can see a possible need for this and "dam the torpedoes" but for most applications this is not the case. This could also cause the bulb or ballast to fail when it is needed most the next (another) time, there is no free lunch. I believe, this is one reason the Surefire Hellfire has a "spring loaded" lens cap, this way I believe they turn it on for maybe 10 seconds before opening the cover (covert start up). For more typical applications, I think there is a good balance between faster start up and longevity of the electronics, bulb and battery package.

 

[mtbkndad]

LuxLuther,

My only issue with your post is that I believe, whether joking or not, statements like "Polarion plants" are inflamatory. I did see the "" and LOL so I did not take it as breaking CPF rule number 4.

You will notice I do not say much about the Polarion P1. That is because I do not want to beat a dead horse and have already mentioned the, what I consider to be bad ergonomics.

For me, small size and packability is everything in the high end light I get. The Helios was dropped from my most desirable spot when I saw the X1 is more uniform in shape and bright enough for my purposes.
I agree that for the average person the price and features of the Helios and X1 are to high and overkill respectively.
For that matter, I think the average person would be better served by an Amondotech Illumintor or X990 then a XeRay and have a lot of money left over.

I do not see this as a dual or debate I truly do not believe there is a best light out there for everybody.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

 

[windstrings]

I shure do like the LED battery guage also. I' just sturring the pot, (SORRY)

I like that too.. thats the only thing I would like to have... I do have lights, but not like the LED's.
Most of those guages are not real accurate anyway.. but they do look cool.
It kinda makes the light look like its alive..... or a little more high tech....

Too bad they have all that glory in only a 35/40 watt package.. I would really like to see it in a higher wattage and more batteries for the money.

I don't mind paying some pretty serious bucks if its cutting edge.. but I do need more than looks and diving abilties for that much money.

I can appreciate thier cost if compared to surefire and some others... but I guess some other manufacturers are totally out of touch with reality with thier competition.

I heard a rumour surefire was in trouble because of competition. But any company will suffer if they loose touch with the competition.

If the Helios was "forced" to go up in price.. I hope they know what they are doing.. its too nice of a light to lose off the market.... but I am perplexed as to why they have not upgraded the performance of it in both output, and battery.

Its almost like they think there is no competition or something, like they are the only guys in town with a light this nice in the 3K and less range??
Whenever you raise your price without improvements, thats the only deduction I can come up with?

I hope reality doesn't hit them so hard in the face they go out of business.

 

[TeflonBubba]

For this kind of money, I would probably get a current generation (new) Maxa Beam at 7.5 million CP (bulb rated for 1,000 hours) with POWER flood-to-spot adjustment, and some serious THROW.

Second to the MB, I would go for the lumens giant, the Xeray Barn Burner, or a Xeray 50W with an upgrade to BB.

The styling of Polarion is nice but these would be my choices for THROW and LUMENS, respectively.

 

[NAW]

For this kind of money, I would probably get a current generation (new) Maxa Beam at 7.5 million CP (bulb rated for 1,000 hours) with POWER flood-to-spot adjustment, and some serious THROW.

Second to the MB, I would go for the lumens giant, the Xeray Barn Burner, or a Xeray 50W with an upgrade to BB.

The styling of Polarion is nice but these would be my choices for THROW and LUMENS, respectively.

I'd choose the Helios for power & smallness, Rayzorlite for alot of runtime, & BarnBurner to really tick my neighbors off

 

[windstrings]

NO "Metal Halide" type HID of any kind offers instant on to full brightness, The faster it is done the harder it is on both ballast and bulb. To get quicker warm up the HID must be overdriven to speed the process. The highest overdrive rates I have seen are about 100-110 bulb watts and quickly ramping down from there,

there is no free lunch. I believe, this is one reason the Surefire Hellfire has a "spring loaded" lens cap, this way I believe they turn it on for maybe 10 seconds before opening the cover (covert start up).

So in a nutshell, you are saying based on your knowledge of the ballast that are out there and since you manufactur them you consider yourself an authority, any light that fires up instantly has been rigged so at the expense of ballast "and" bulb life correct?

Since someone brought in "the beast" to the discussion... .lets pick on them for a bit.

Because I think the interpretation most lay people take is simply looking at final performance and assuming it is superior quality... especially since the unbelievable price seems to imply so.

Some of these lights are totally redicuolous in price.... Get aload of this guys "sale price", and its advertized as "the Best HID" light.........."The Beast" 4800.00 "sale price" whoopee! He knocked off a whopping 7.50 cents off the price! :lolsign:

Based on this crazy price "alone" I can see why the Helios price was raised... it puts the Helios closer to the same "class" as the Beast in the eyes of the layperson.

Most laypeople will assume these lights are built with superior ballasts and bulbs to be able to accomplish instant on.

Maybe they need to raise it more.. another 1000.00 dollars.. still quite a bargain right?... only 3000.00 bucks then?
Maybe you need to raise the price of the Xeray too Dan... maybe another 2000.00.... still a bagain compared to the beast that cost another 2K with its "stunning 2K lumen LOL!!!!!? What a joke......
And look as the battery configuration.. they can't even give you a decent battery....

twenty 123A lithium batteries held securely inside four cylindrical chambers machined into the SureFire flashlight body

Its no wonder you don't hear much about the Beast on the forum out here.. it can't stand the heat .......
They are stuck in the past dreaming of apple pie, ice cream and lolliepops!

Dan, you have really spoiled us with the Xeray!..... This is why the introduction of your product has stirred so many!

My first thought is "is anybody actually buying these flashlights???? Ie: the beast?".... but the answer must be obviously yes. Why not tap into the same market I'm sure the Polarion people are thinking!

If the beast if really moving as product I could see the rational for that line of reasoning, Its a matter of being able to sell an elite light that nobody has and hold the price hostage and keep it so high that the competition can't manage to justify competing in that arena due to complex expensive machining and sophisticated feedback systems that smaller companies may not have access to accomodate. But the bottom line is the light only puts out 2K lumens!.. I just can't get over that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is a light that has complex machining and less than half the lumens really worth 4K more? The public is not "just that stupid" they are just "that uninformed".. there is better out there... much better... for cheaper!


Not to stir the mud furthur, but hopefully actually bring clarity to this silly mess......

Your saying the bottom line is that "some" of the expensive lights are actually less in quality in thier internals due to the configuration they have chosen to give "instant on" ablities... correct?

I'm sure many folks out there will assume your just "slamming" the competition..... maybe you should do a little tweak on your ballast to make them "Instant on" too.. just to prove to them that its no big deal and you can offer both options with a disclaimer and warning for the "instant on" choice.
Your "instant on" light will of course be "cheaper" LOL! since it won't last as long.......

Its of no wonder Surefire is in trouble!!!! they are used to this type of income and its coming to a screeching halt! Competition just sucks doesn't it???
Maybe they need to move thier product to somewhere besides America, so they can corner the market again......

I do notice that all the lights with that "instant" on ability doesn't have much of a lifetime on thier bulbs either... they make no claims about the ballast life being shortened and many times they make no claims about their bulb life either!!!.... maybe they figure as long as it makes it through the warranty, thier good and will get more business in repairs.

After all... anyone who spends 5K on a light, is not going to toss it and go get another, they will attempt to get it fixed first, and they will naturally take it back to where they bought it.... pretty good strategy....
Compaq computers used that strategy and look what happened to them....

There are not many companies that really make products to last in such a way that they hope to never see that light again in the repair shop.

 

[BVH]

Not to stir the mud furthur, but hopefully actually bring clarity to this silly mess......

Your saying the bottom line is that "some" of the expensive lights are actually less in quality in thier internals due to the configuration they have chosen to give "instant on" ablities... correct?

Windy, I'm not saying what's in the quote above is what you and/or Dan believe regarding instant on = lower quality. I don't think the act in and of itself of building an HID light with "instant on" capabilities guarantees a lower quality HID light or necessairly lessens the life of the lamp and ballast. By simply performing the proper engineering calculations and using internal parts capable of the performance called for the by the calcs, you will achieve the desired performance (instant on) without premature failure and a "reduced quality". Naturally, parts capable of higher performance are going to cost more money but you don't automatically make something "lower quality" by designing and building it with certain performance levels. By the way, when I say "instant on" in this case, I mean full on in a few seconds versus 10 to 20 seconds.

 

[windstrings]

Windy, I'm not saying what's in the quote above is what you and/or Dan believe regarding instant on = lower quality. I don't think the act in and of itself of building an HID light with "instant on" capabilities guarantees a lower quality HID light or necessairly lessens the life of the lamp and ballast. By simply performing the proper engineering calculations and using internal parts capable of the performance called for the by the calcs, you will achieve the desired performance (instant on) without premature failure and a "reduced quality". Naturally, parts capable of higher performance are going to cost more money but you don't automatically make something "lower quality" by designing and building it with certain performance levels. By the way, when I say "instant on" in this case, I mean full on in a few seconds versus 10 to 20 seconds.

Question #1.. So it sounds like what you are saying is the parts are out there that are of such quality, that they can take the temporary punishment required to produce the "instant on" abilities "without" lessening the lifespan of the part.. since they are of higher quality and thier tolerances are higher..... correct?

Question #2.. If there parts are out there..... just how much more do these ballast really cost?.. if its negligable, why doesn't everyone toss the old technology and just use the instant on ballasts?

Question #3.. what about the bulb?...... if these high quality parts are available, do they also preserve the bulb life too?

 

[BVH]

Windy, first and foremost, I am not saying that the "process" I cited is what Polarion actually does or did. I am just saying that any company can design a product capable of certain performance levels. Be it an HID light, an automotive alternator, a hydraulic cylinder.

So...

Question 1. Parts, are out there or if they are not, can be manufactured to take the punishment of "instant on" and still meet lifespans equal to that of non instant-on HID's. But again, this applies to all products. They might be bigger parts, parts made of better materials or, who knows.

2. I have no idea what the costs of Polarion's or anyone elses ballasts are.

3. You are being case-specific and I am talking "in general" for all products.

My reply was simply a response to your thoery that "instant-on" equals lower quality. It was not meant to be Polarion specific. I should have probably elaborated this point in the first post.

Remember, I have only one Polarion and TWO Xerays! So I can't be Polarion biased, right?

 

[XeRay]

So in a nutshell, you are saying based on your knowledge of the ballast that are out there and since you manufacture them you consider yourself an authority, any light that fires up instantly has been rigged so at the expense of ballast "and" bulb life correct?

Most laypeople will assume these lights are built with superior ballasts and bulbs to be able to accomplish instant on.

Your saying the bottom line is that "some" of the expensive lights are actually less in quality in their internals due to the configuration they have chosen to give "instant on" abilities... correct?

I'm sure many folks out there will assume your just "slamming" the competition..... maybe you should do a little tweak on your ballast to make them "Instant on" too.. just to prove to them that its no big deal and you can offer both options with a disclaimer and warning for the "instant on" choice.

I do notice that all the lights with that "instant" on ability doesn't have much of a lifetime on their bulbs either... they make no claims about the ballast life being shortened and many times they make no claims about their bulb life either!!!.... maybe they figure as long as it makes it through the warranty, they are good and will get more business in repairs.

This is not some special knowledge that is exclusive to me. These are just well known facts to those who design HID ballasts for the currently available line of bulbs. Again, as I stated the bulb being used in the Helios and most probably also in the X1 is an ever so slightly modified off the shelf Osram D1S bulb.

They have removed the metal EMI/RFI shield from the igniter (box), crushed and removed the ceramic tube from the high voltage return wire and bent it closer to the bulb glass and lastly remover the outer portion of the power connector mating surface to reduce the igniter base dimensions. Then they just use individual pins and wires to make the 3 pin connection. All of this low skill modification in a production environment would take 2-3 minutes per bulb.

As I said before extremely fast warm-up comes at a price to bulb life and also possibly ballast life as well, as for the ballast it depends how well the individual components are heat sinked for that VERY fast temperature rise and the proper design for pumping out maybe 150 watts or more for the first few seconds. 4X or maybe even 5X higher than the 35/40 watt steady state operation.

This in not "superior" design if in fact true, it is a different design with a specific design goal. We do not currently design with those same goals. I do not claim to know the quality of their ballast design or the quality of the components used in that design. I would have to take one apart to make any quality comments. The bulb they have chosen is a quality piece, we also use that bulb (unmodified) in some aviation and industrial applications.

I am not bashing the Helios, it is a work of flashlight art. I am also not bashing its possible performance in this fast starting realm. I am just saying that if Extremely fast full output is a design goal, it comes at a price of bulb life and possibly ballast and battery life as well. If this performance issue is a requirement then one must also accept the down sides. There is NO "silver bullet" in this case.

With our 50 watt XeRay producing over 3,000 lumens instantly when the arc is struck and then ramping up to over 5000 lumens, I don't feel the need to push the envelope in this way. We also have instant on as do most 30+ watt HID systems, it is only a question of how you define instant on.

Maybe someone can design a bulb for this instant full output capability using Metal Halide HID. The Osram D1S bulb used by Polarion has not been designed for this. I can also tell you the secondary transformer windings in the igniter which are also used for continuous operation not just start up, were not designed for this either. If you look at our recently updated website you will find we also make igniters for this technology.

 

[TeflonBubba]

Good explanation about the design choices involved. Educational. :goodjob:

In the end, the consumer, armed with information, can determine which features and trade-offs they prefer.

As you describe, Dan, My Xeray 50W powers up instantly - and then intensifies shortly thereafter.

 

[windstrings]

In the end, the consumer, armed with information, can determine which features and trade-offs they prefer.

Only problem is most of the info is very generalized.... we don't really "know" what each light has for parts and what makes them tick.. its all speculation and no one wants to definatively say what the story is on "a" particular light.. without that we can't really determine what the trade offs are.

So far, we have accomplished little other than to see who has cards.... until we know what the cards are, we don't know the winning hands....

 

[LuxLuthor]

** LuxLuthor gives sly grin while holding a straight flush....*

"Oh ummm...yeah....Windy...did you want to start the betting....I'm not quite sure how to play this game....?"
​

 

[Lips]

.

I'm a little saddened and surprised by the unannounced price increase of the Helios for I was looking at getting one for a shoot-out.


The Helios line has had it's share of battery and switch problems. The problems have been on the prototypes $1000 sold as well as the production units albeit privately. This is most-likely true with any new complex product.


The dealers and manufactures of these lights use the forums as a form of cheap advertisement and word of mouth advertising. The dealers and manufacturers should give back to the community in some fashion. I'll take my give-back in the form of a cpf discount...


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