PWM - What is it, How does it work and how to detect it.

flitter296

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Cataract, thank you for this very informative post! Besides giving me a good understanding of what PWM is and why it is used, it helped me to understand why some of my flashlights have a much longer run time on low than others, when low is basically the same lumen rating with the same batteries.
 

Lord Muzzy

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Great explanation! I had a general idea but this really clears things up. :goodjob:
 

Cataract

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Thanks guys, I'm really glad I could put this clearly enough to help others. Comments like these really make me feel it was worth more than just the time I spent doing it :)
 

Cataract

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Erm... I don't know what's going on here... I thought this was a bot posting until I checked your other posts. Need any help?
 

Louise1992

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That is amazing . The light picture is a excellent description .That i would like to give it a try.
 

xelario

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"Your eyes are a little like tiny cameras that take about 24 pictures per second." This should be removed.
 

Cataract

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"Your eyes are a little like tiny cameras that take about 24 pictures per second." This should be removed.

It has been estimated that the brain (yeah, not the eyes) processes about 24 frames per second. I'm not sure if there have been more recent studies into this, but the origin of this idea is that movies that showed less than 24 frames per second in the very debut of cinema made a lot of people regurgitate (to use the more polite way of saying what I have read). By experimenting, they had concluded that 24 frames per second kept the audience in their seat while keeping the length of reels as short (therefore less costly) as possible.

This number is definitely debatable, but there is definite evidence that we cannot perceive more than a certain number of "pictures per second" if we compare to how movies are displayed on screen or on TV's or computer monitors. I did phrase it "a little like tiny cameras" and "about 24 frames per second" on purpose.
 

xelario

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It has been estimated that the brain (yeah, not the eyes) processes about 24 frames per second. I'm not sure if there have been more recent studies into this, but the origin of this idea is that movies that showed less than 24 frames per second in the very debut of cinema made a lot of people regurgitate (to use the more polite way of saying what I have read). By experimenting, they had concluded that 24 frames per second kept the audience in their seat while keeping the length of reels as short (therefore less costly) as possible.

This number is definitely debatable, but there is definite evidence that we cannot perceive more than a certain number of "pictures per second" if we compare to how movies are displayed on screen or on TV's or computer monitors. I did phrase it "a little like tiny cameras" and "about 24 frames per second" on purpose.

The brain can only process about 24 frames per second? Wow. I must be from a different species, then :D In fact, a lot of people must be. I mean why else would we even have 120Hz monitors? And 144Hz? Madness!
Why do TV movies at 30fps look different, than cinema 24fps ones? Why did people find The Hobbit's 48fps weird? Why even film and show it at 48 if 24 is all our brains can process? You talk about TV and movies, but never mention games. Maybe you're not a gamer. I am. If my eyes or brain only processed 24fps, I wouldn't have to buy expensive hardware to run games at >60, preferably >100. 30, 60, 100fps - there's a very noticeable difference to me.
In other words, it's a difficult subject, but neither our eyes nor brain are capped at 24 fps. That's why I think this claim should be removed. For someone who knows absolutely nothing about the subject reading this article would be highly misleading. The eyes don't "take pictures", they provide a continuos stream of data. The brain does not "take those images and assemble them into what we perceive as the continuous movie of our lives".
Please don't be offended, I hope it doesn't looks like I'm attacking you, I just don't like to see wrong or debatable data being presented as true fact and potentially misleading people in an otherwise good article.
If I were you, I'd drop the whole paragraph about 24 frames per second, it only adds to confusion. You explained it later: "The lower frequency PWM will be more perceivable to the eyes as a fast strobe effect – remember what it looks like to dance in a club when the only lighting around are strobes? Well, imagine that strobe is even faster, to the point that motion is almost continuous...".
 

WalkIntoTheLight

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Around 24 fps is likely where our brains stop perceiving the images as individual pictures, and see them as fluid motion. That doesn't mean we can't perceive things faster than that, but it does seem to be a turning point of some kind. Stop-motion films at 12 fps do not look smooth at all. At 24 fps, we're willing to accept it as real motion.

My guess it probably has something to do with the amount of time it takes our brains to process an image from our optic nerves. If it takes more than 1/24s, then we just accept it as smooth motion.
 

xelario

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Around 24 fps is likely where our brains stop perceiving the images as individual pictures, and see them as fluid motion. That doesn't mean we can't perceive things faster than that, but it does seem to be a turning point of some kind. Stop-motion films at 12 fps do not look smooth at all. At 24 fps, we're willing to accept it as real motion.

My guess it probably has something to do with the amount of time it takes our brains to process an image from our optic nerves. If it takes more than 1/24s, then we just accept it as smooth motion.

Again, "likely" is not "definitely". There is a lot to this subject. In the movies, the 24 frames per second look like fluid motion, but in games it doesn't. Because in movies fast motion is blured, while in games it isn't - the same goes with PWM, it's on or it's off. Try looking at a light at 24Hz - I did - it's visibly blinking. Also in the movies the 24 unique frames are not projected at only 24Hz, and so on. 24fps in the movies is not the same as a light at 24Hz PWM.
My point is, the whole 24fps thing in an article about PWM in flashlights is totally out of place and adds nothing usefull, no flashlight will use 24Hz or similar PWM. And the way it's written now is plain wrong and misleading.
 

Cataract

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This is turning into a very interesting discussion that should be had on a completely different thread. Start that thread and I'll meet you there (PM me or link it here). The goal here is not to confuse people who want to learn about PWM.
 

xelario

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The goal here is not to confuse people who want to learn about PWM.

And that's exactly what you're doing, IMHO... My goal here was not to start a discussion (so I won't start a new thread), but to remove the confusion. Finally you seem to understand, but only see the consequence (discussion) and not the cause (24fps paragraph). Maybe you don't think that text is confusing, misleading and/or wrong and is actually useful for people learning about PWM. Oh well, I did what I could ;)
 
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