Question for LEO members.

[brightnorm]

[ QUOTE ]
dano said:
Most OC sprays have an expiration date. Most have a "life" of two years.

--dan

[/ QUOTE ]

Dan,

That's what puuzzles me about the Fox spray I just bought. No expiration date. I'm surprised because some "lesser" sprays have them plainly printed on the dispenser.

Brightnorm

 

[dano]

Interesting...I couldn't tell you why there's no exp. date, I've heard that Fox OC is really nasty, heat wise...

--dan

 

[Unicorn]

If it doesn't have an expiration date on the label, assume the worst and replace it every year or so, and use the older one for practice. It's most definitely overkill, but it's not that much money to spend just once a year. I'm sure that you spend more on batteries or bulbs in a month.

Fox has an almost cult like following in some of the LEO's that have used it. Try to get a good coarse fog, or cone (I forget but don't think that Fox makes a fog, just stream and cone). A stream requires you to actually aim it more finely, and that gets a bit difficult under stress. It also has less of a respitory (SP?) effect. With either, the easiest way to deploy it is to hold the can near your body, and sweep it in a figure 8 motion across the head and shoulders of your attacker. This will ensure coverage of the person's eyes, nose, and mouth for maximum effect. If you try to hold the canister at arms length, it's going to be easier for the person to grab your arm or the can, and most likely your attacker will have closed in on you.

Of course the best thing is a can of Fox in a Tigerlight. That is a great combination that I wonder why it took so long. If only they'd make one that has the OC holder removable, so you can convert from the FBOP to the standard model and back depending on needs.

 

[brightnorm]

Unicorn,

Thanks for the advice. Do you have any personal experience with Fox, or know anyone who has?

Brightnorm

 

[hawkhkg11]

I carry a 2oz can of Fox in cone. Definitely go cone instead of stream. With the latter, you have to aim, which is very tough under field conditions, especially if you're being attacked. Stream also tends to have a washing effect which decreases the effectiveness of the OC. It also doesn't effect the respiratory effect. As for the effectiveness, Fox is universally recognized as the premier OC brand on the market, as it is the only brand to have 5.3 million SHU, which is roughly 1000 times hotter than a jalapeno.

The key when buying OC is not the %, but rather the SHU that is important. Most brands are 10% OC, but only have 2 million SHU. The SHU determines the effectiveness. The % determines how long the OC lasts on your skin after being exposed, but is really ilrelevant for self-defense purposes.
Fox IMHO is the best at giving you the raw power without the advertising.

Now I have this extremely masochist feeling coming on...I'll report back with the results. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Unicorn]

I've never used the Fox brand, but I believe that jncrcpd (I can't remember his user name exactly), does. He hasn't been here in a while I don't think. He's at the Strategos board though.

Hey, hawkhkg11 please give us a detailed report. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif A couple bits of advice. First have someone help you. Get a spray bottle and make a mix of water and baby shampoo, about half and half. Also have a garden hose nearby. After you're sprayed, run a ton of water on your eyes, and spray the shampoo/water mix liberally into your eyes and rinse it out. You'll want to repeat this until the bottle is empty most likely. After you wash out the majority of the OC, sitting in front of a fan blowing right into your face helps cool you off.

 

[dano]

I wouldn't use any shampoo's to decontaminate. The oils in the shampoo traps the OC particules, and makes decon. last longer (baby shampoo could be different). The super secret quick decon is to use cold milk. The fats in the milk suspend the OC particulates, and the coldness helps with the burning sensation.

--dan

 

[Unicorn]

It was my understanding that the shampoo since it's basically a soap, broke down the oil based OC so that it made it quicker. A couple of the decon sprays or wipes are basically a diluted shampoo. Sudecon comes to mind, but it may be a different brand. Some also contain sugar, but I'm not sure why. The only reason to use baby shampoo is that it's a gentler ("No more tears"), and more pure product (no aloe, or smell good stuff).

The cold milk makes sense. The same reason that it helps when eating spicy food, and why sour cream goes great with Mexican. I'd never heard of anyone doing that, but it's a great idea.

 

[dano]

Hmmm...I'll have to dig up my OC/Chem training notes, maybe it was a different kind of detergent, and not hair shampoo that was mentioned as a no-no...Anyways, it'll wear off with or without "aids." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


--dan

 

[Larry1582]

We were told in our training to use baby shampoo to decontaminate.

We are issued the 1.76 oz MK-III. When we first started using pepperspray we were issued Freeze. They went to the MK-III because it has the safety tab over the button to prevent accidental discharge.

 

[pal251]

try spraying fox into a styrafoam cup...it melts it in seconds /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[holtz58]

Hey oldgrandpajack
I am not sure if NY has a law on flashlights but if you
want to see a long light check this out.
http://users.erols.com/holtz58/7ccelmag.jpg
It's not that bright but is the longest light I have.
7 C cell

 

[brightnorm]

Here are FOX's recommended post-spray wipes

SUDECON DECONTAMINATION WIPES


This site shows some of the police departments using Fox products.
FOX SPRAY & POLICE DEPTS USING IT


hawkhkg11,

Can you please tell me if your cannister is dated. Also,I thought a cone pattern was more subject to wind than a stream because of its micro-sized droplets and less concentrated form.

Brightnorm

 

[Larry1582]

hlotz58,

I may be wrong, but looking at the switch on that light and the shape I believe that light is a Kel-lite. I like the end cap on it.

 

[hawkhkg11]

Fox canisters are not dated. You should probably call them and ask about storage and expiration problems. A cone pattern is definitely more susceptible to wind, but I think all of its other benefit's outweigh the wind factor. Concentration is the same, it is just dispersed in a different pattern. Cone has a large enough radius to cover the entire face with one burst, whereas stream does not. Range isn't a problem, as the spray isn't like one you would see from a hair spray bottle. It is very forceful as it is pressurized. Only a strong gust of wind would cause potential problems.

CAP-STUN's web site lists some benefits of cone over stream:

A narrow stream pattern does not have adequate evaporation rate to properly suspend the air-borne OC micro-droplets in order to properly affect the respiratory system - critical to targeting REMS and achievement of total incapacitation of the complete spectrum of subject profiles.

The subject may be wearing eye glasses. Narrow stream pattern will not circulate the airborne chemical around the eye glasses to properly affect the eyes. [A cone dispersion pattern] will operate effectively under this situation.

The narrow stream pattern has caused documented eye injuries due to hydraulic needle effects on the cornea of the eyes.

The narrow stream pattern can be blocked by the hand or the arm of the subject.

Since an individual can cover a distance of 17 feet in one second, it is imperative not to use excessive time in aiming toward the subject. Unnecessary time is spent in aiming a stream pattern type spray. Even the best trained personnel will miss the target.

The narrow stream pattern may accidentally be sprayed into the mouth, exposing subjects to ingestion of harsh chemicals.

 

[holtz58]

Larry1582
You could be right. I purchased it in the mid 1970's and I
thought it was a Mag-Lite. There is no name on it anywhere, just a serial number, 2155327.

 

[oldgrandpajack]

Holtz58:
That sure is a long one. Looks like it was designed, from the ground up, to be used as a defensive tool.
oldgrandpajack

 

[holtz58]

oldgrandpajack
I just got it because it looked pretty cool at the time. If you notice the on/off switch it was a pretty poor design. When I carried it in a ring type holder on my belt the light
would constantly get turned on by accident.

 

[oldgrandpajack]

I appreciate the need for the defensive sprays by LEO's. They are usually a much better alternative, to use of physical or deadly force.

I think that civilians should not use them where they are illegal. Civilians that live in states where they are legal should be trained in there use and potential risks. Remember, that club in Chicago, where the security guard used a defensive spray, causing a panic. How many were killed?

These are very potent and effective tools in the right hands. If misused, intentionally or unintentionally, they are potentially extremely dangerous. They probably wouldn't be effective if they weren't. I strongly believe that everyone, using these sprays, should be well trained.
oldgrandpajack

 

[Mike 161]

holtz58;

You have a 7C Kel-Lite with a "Yawara"(sp?) endcap, which was designed to be used on the smaller Kel-Lites so they could be used as a "Yawara stick" for defense.

I've only seen one of those endcaps on a "working" Kel-Lite (around 1977); a Security Officer working at a bar (where fights were almost a nightly occurrence), told me he used the endcap to "wake up drunks" passed out at the bar. The S/O said he would take his flashlight (IIRC a 5C Kel-Lite) and "roll" the endcap along the drunk's arm (or, presumably, any other exposed body part), which would pinch the skin. The drunk would wake up (hopefully), and then be taken outside. I never saw this done, so I have no idea if this would even work (wouldn't want to try it). That's what this S/O told me he used the endcap for, when I asked him about it "way back when."

When I carried my 7C Kel-Lite (I was a Sheriff's Explorer), I placed a baton grommet over it, and placed it in a straight baton ring; Deputies I knew who carried 6C Kel-Lites (they didn't know about the 7 cell, until I showed them mine), would also place baton grommets on them; however they placed them in side handle baton holder, which was more secure. These Deputies carried the Kel-Lites in place of their side handle batons, to use as impact weapons. I only saw one Deputy with a Kel-Lite Baton Light (IIRC it was the 26" version).

Mike