SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

[Chloe]

the device has only 1 power input interface, it's located at the front and is of the standard round type. here an old pic:

Why is the power socket at the front? It seems strange placement. >.< Is it really cramped inside? (I am wondering more about thermals and heatsinking, if it can charge with so much current).

I like that it has wide input voltage range.

About the rest cycle. This is a really nice feature for capacity testing Li-ion. What kind of drain is there on cells in rest mode? Will a trickle charge be needed? (I imagine a minimum 1hr rest).

I also saw you mentioned needing to recalibrate the fourth slot. How exactly is this done (do you use a reference voltage?). Will this be required periodically?

 

[kreisl]

sollie my Engrish hh. with "front" i didn't mean the top side where the logo is but the location where most chargers have the adapter socket see i4, d4, xp4, c3100, c9000, nc2500, bc700, etc, so nothing strange about the placement ^^

Dimensions are generous outside and inside also because of the high currents and thermals, yet the product had to keep a reasonably compact size. As you know, 1-channel hobby chargers such as Imax B6 or iCharger do employ their own metal chassis most effectively for heat sinking and heat dispersion to the environment in addition to 1 big loud cooling fan mounted on cooling fins similar to a PC CPU cooler. For obvious reasons a 4-bay battery charger should not be made out of metal and in fact i don't know of any 4-bay charger which comes in a full metal jacket construction. So apart from the ventilation fan for heat convection, heat sinking is limited to internal metal chunks as done in the MC3000. There is much room left for your own expensive metal heat sink extensions and i would believe that a small handful of tinkerers will consider exactly this. So nah it's not cramped inside.

rest cycle, rest mode, erh.
The rest routine has no drain on the cells, the multimeter reads "0.000A", none of a concern. Trickle charge is never needed with good quality batteries unless you want get the max out of your cell for testing purposes. In §7.3.2 of the 3rd edition of IEC 61951-2 published in 2011 the international committee recommends a rest time of "not less than 1 h and not more than 4 h" at 20°C for the so-called "standard discharge" of NiMH cells at 20°C room temperature. For LiIon cells the 2nd edition of IEC 61960 published in 2011 would apply. It states similar things for the standard discharge and rest times.

Recalibration of the slots is done through the firmware in a hidden menu. No tweaking of any potentiometers on the PCB, as known from multimeter recalibrations. The process is simple and straight-forward and will be explained in detail in future. I don't know how often recalibration will be required, it may depend on various factors and thus vary from user to user. My digital multimeter is 3 years old and i never felt a requirement to recalibrate it. If my multimeter is un-recalibrated, then it makes little sense to recalibrate the charger with it, does it?

 

[Mr Floppy]

How can i find out if the connection is a "Serial TTL port"/"TTL USB board"?

I don't normally use windows but under device manger -> ports, should be something like COM4 etc. Mind you, I think they all need drivers. Maybe it talks that USB-USB bridge file transfer thing that people sold as PC-Link cables. Thought it was rather propriety though and you would need to build that host-to-host into the machine.

 

[StandardBattery]

....For obvious reasons a 4-bay battery charger should not be made out of metal ....

not obvious to me... aluminum does not weight that much; big heat sinks are pretty light ... at least they could have a nice heat-sink like the RF radios or good transistor amps. If it needs to handle the heat it's either going to have a lot of surface area interms of volume, or it's going to have a nice heat sink so it have surface area for cooling in less volume. We're not taking about charging with 10 Amps even here, sure 8 might be beautiful, but if they did 4 or 6 with no fan and a cool 25-30deg charge that would make a statement. I think they just need to work with someone use to making power amps and they could get something better than plastic and metal plate. They need to look at the form factor too and get rid of any components under the battery bays. elongate the charger, or better, raise the height of the back, no two ways around it it's going to be bigger than a BT-700. The C9000 has shown they make the right tradfeoffs with size for charge capacity and heat dissipation. Different designs need to be used to set a new standard in performance and capacity.

 

[kreisl]

I don't normally use windows but under device manger -> ports, should be something like COM4 etc. Mind you, I think they all need drivers. Maybe it talks that USB-USB bridge file transfer thing that people sold as PC-Link cables.

Of course any external hardware uses an installed driver for communication with the PC. And for my EBC-A charger-analyzer i had to install such a Serial-TTL-to-USB driver so that it would work with the EBC-A PC Link software. But i meant that on a clean fresh Winxp installation i don't need to install extra drivers for the MC3000 device recognition and the working with its simplistic PC Link software. It's plug and play .. but i'll check on that with an acronis image for 100% reconfirmation. The USB cable which i use for connecting is taken from of a tomcar navigation and i don't know sic if the retail shipping package will contain a USB cable:

The iCharger comes packaged with a free USB cable, the new Imax B6mini which i own too does not. After restoring the acronis hdd image I'll check the xp device manager to see what it says.

Q. How neat, EBC-A wiv EB tester software, never heard of before!! Any good, works very Chinese, does it?
A. Meh? I beg your pardon?

Q. I can hardly find English doc on the device or software, pretty much all is in Chinese. Yah, you too?
A. Me.. me what?? — O'gimme a break dude. Tss. (I am not sure if i understood your question correctly though.) *sigh*

Q. Don't you think that you're talking to a m***n, i am not!
A. Oh i see. Erh. No i don't. (I am not sure if you understood my answer correctly though, hehe.)

 

[Dubois]

Any news?

 

[shelm]

Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

no, i go :green: is not supported. unless actual users do request it. then it would be easy enough i guess to add this obscure battery type in an updated firmware.

Could you add support for analyzing Alkaline batteries as separate battery type?

 

[kreisl]

Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

Could you add support for analyzing Alkaline batteries as separate battery type?

What exactly do you have in mind? After the analysis, i.e. a controlled discharging, your primary battery will be used up, depleted, and dead. Money wasted only for getting some graph and end values (mAh, Wh, runtime)? :shrug:

On the WWW i've seen battery reviewers who tested primary CR123A batteries. The discharge algorithm does not differ from RCR123, it is constant current or "D-CC" (discharge at constant current), you can use DISCHARGE mode of BATT TYPE LiIon for them i guess, shouldn't make any difference. The discharge algorithm for Energizer Lithium is D-CC too, you can use DISCHARGE mode of BATT TYPE NiMH for them, i don't mind

Alkalines cannot hold constant current draw: if you ever tried to discharge a good quality Alkaline AA in MH-C9000 with 100mA, you'd know. All one gets is silly low mAh-numbers at the program end, while the battery is still not depleted. It is actually quite a challenge to discharge an Alkaline by more than half of its capacity with the Maha.

What's the proposed discharge algorithm then? For charging RAM the charger should use C-CV (charge at constant voltage, with no CC-phase), I am guessing that for discharging Alkalines (and RAM's) the charger should use D-CV (discharge at constant voltage, also without any CC-phase) hence?

Tbh with the present set of program parameters it would not be possible to simulate D-CV. The STORAGE mode of BATT TYPE LiIon employs D-CC-CV when the cell voltage is higher than the storage TARGET VOLT, which is an improvement over iCharger's D-CC algorithm. But i don't see any means of striking out the CC in its D-CC-CV algorithm.

I am guessing you're right with the assumption that for Alkaline-DISCHARGE-support and RAM-CHARGE-support one would need to create a new BATT TYPE in the firmware which does charging with C-CV and discharging with D-CV, both without CC-phases.

Q. You haven't answered the question yet, have you? What about it?
A. No.

Q. No, no what?
A. No i haven't answered the question yet. Point is, Alkalines leak, are waste to the environment and ultimately bad for our health.

Q. That was very helpful info. *sigh*
A. I am pleasure for the help! *wink*

 

[Dubois]

Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

I've got to say that analysis of alkaline batteries is of no interest to me whatsoever. Although I do sometimes use lithium primaries, I would never waste them by running an analysis in a charger.

Seems like a strange request.

 

[oKtosiTe]

Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

[...] No i haven't answered the question yet. Point is, Alkalines leak, are waste to the environment and ultimately bad for our health.

Boom! Alkaline-slam!

 

[kreisl]

Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

I am guessing that for discharging Alkalines (and RAM's) the charger should use D-CV (discharge at constant voltage, also without any CC-phase) hence?

I found a website which lists typical capacities for single Alkaline batts:
http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Energy-tables.html

I am test discharging now some cheap Alkalines from the supermarket with the NiMH DISCHARGE mode and tweaked DISCHARGE REDUCE parameter and the lowest possible threshold voltage in this firmware version. In detail, the battery is discharged with constant 500mA down to 0.20V, then the current draw is automatically reduced very slowly, depending on the behavior of the cell, down to ~0mA while the voltage is held constant at 0.20V. The battery will be full depleted when in theory the offline voltage stays constant at 0.20V. In practice, this won't happen because it would take months of continuous discharging to get a stable 0.20V reading on an Alkaline cell.

Anyway it's quite fun to see that discharging Alkalines is very possible on the MC3000 without the creation of a new battery type or special mode. D-CV may be the perfect discharge algorithm but my workaround D-CC-CV discharging works well too. I think that discharging Alkalines on the C9000 was mostly no good because of the high cut-off voltage 0.90V. iCharger can discharge down to 0.10V. Erh talking about flexible discharging ..

I totally agree with your assessment of the storage mode function of the iCharger. I've given up on it. Now I slightly overcharge, then use nimh discharge to slowly (0.1A) get down to the desired storage level. Since I do that in multiple steps of decreasing current, it becomes a huge hassle.

.. you could use the iCharger's Lilo DISCHARGE mode in combination with 5% DISCHARGE REDUCE for storing LiIon cells (4.2V -> 3.8V), 0.2A would be reduced to 10mA. No need to do steps manually. iCharger has a very wide cut-off range for discharging LiIons, namely Lilo U LiPo {2.50|2.51|…|4.19|4.20}V.

 

[HKJ]

Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

I found a website which lists typical capacities for single Alkaline batts:

You could also have found that on my website, listed for different discharge currents and different brands.

 

[kreisl]

Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

In your AA tests, with a single D-CC (discharge at constant current) run an Alkaline still keeps much of its capacity. And from my tests, between 0.7V and 0.2V there is also notable amount of capacity left. Imax B6mini and iCharger can discharge NiMH down to 0.10V, so i am wondering about the 0.20V limit in the present FW (firmware).

Do you have any means to do D-CC-CV or D-CV tests with your equipment? I am sure that all fancy analyzers support such algorithms apart from the standard D-CC method.

You didn't do any Alkaline C cell tests, did you? Maybe in future more community members will get into testing batteries for the fun of it and it would be a breeze to create a community data collection of standardized MC3000 tests where hundreds of owners could contribute their files at the same time. I have iCharger, Imax B6, Imax B6mini, EBC-A, four great hobby chargers .. but none of them is as much fun and satisfying to operate as the new skyrc.

Looking forward to seeing more owners report their positive user experience.

Looks like since IFA i am still the only one with a unit. :candle:

 

[HKJ]

Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

I do not see any point in discharging down to 0.3V or lower.
I can do just about anything I wish in discharge curves, I just have to write the program.

For a C cell: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Panasonic Pro Power C UK.html

 

[kreisl]

Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

Thanks for the pointers HKJ!

I've test discharged used Alkaline C, AA, AAA batteries just to see if by the end of the tests my BT-860 battery tester would declare them as depleted. And i am pleased to report that the needle is in the middle position ~12:00 o'clock, the red field titled "PLACE CHARGE", excellent!

Discharging the C cell took several days, which made it impossible for me to log its graph with the PC (voltage, current, temperature, capacity) and i had to interrupt the program several times for my other tests and doings and i didn't really keep track of the accumulated mAh's.

But i should buy brand new 4-packs of discounter AA's and AAA's and discharge all 8 batteries in parallel in the skyrc and in the C9000 maha just to learn the difference in mAh's and BT-860 reading.

 

[Dubois]

Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

I still don't really understand why you would use anything, let alone something as interesting as this charger, to discharge alkaline batteries. What am I missing? Is it simply to test the cells, for future reference, so that you know brand X has more capacity than brand Y?

Or is it a more hobbyist answer - you do it because you can?:devil:

 

[kreisl]

Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

I still don't really understand why you would use anything, let alone something as interesting as this charger, to discharge alkaline batteries. What am I missing? Is it simply to test the cells, for future reference, so that you know brand X has more capacity than brand Y?

Or is it a more hobbyist answer - you do it because you can?

You pose some good questions.

It maybe interesting to know if your Duracell brand has 25% less capacity than my Industrial brand, or kaufland and aldi alkalines cost 15-20¢/aa and at such low prices i couldn't care less if their capacity is only 50% of panas.

You're right, it's more of a hobbyist thing. If discharging all sorts of round batteries in an interesting charger for the sake of it isn't fun enough, then maybe i should look for a new hobby? :duh2:

What would you suggest? :huh:

Q. Have you bought the new 4-pack of Alkaline AA and 4-pack of Alkaline AAA yet?
A. Not yet.

Q. Anything wrong with you? Don't tell me!
A. Everything fine. And what kind of question was that please? Good lord.

Q. Nah nothing. It's another weekend and i am bored. Can't wait for news.
A. I feel for you bro. Dis country celebrates national holiday. I gotta wait too sollie mahn.

 

[Dubois]

Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

Sounds to me like you should do a lot of testing of alkaline batteries and report back here on their quality. :devil:

Mind you, I only use alkaline batteries for remote controls, where any old rubbish seems to work, so any interest would be purely academic.

 

[kreisl]

So the led next to the USB seems to be marked "power bank". What is the limitations on its use? Given the 2.1A marking on the port i am guessing it needs something more potent than your typical AAs.

The mini USB data output port is marked "PC LINK", right next to it the USB power output port is marked "5V 2.1A" which implies a max. power output of 10.5 Watts.

While power banks based on NiMH batteries might exist, the truth is that i hardly know of 1 example with actual market availability and HKJ didn't afaik ever review any such for good reasons. If a portable power bank aims to output 10W, then you better do this safely and effectively with powerful Liion batteries, see also the Liion accu packs for laptops and notebooks. State of the art portable power banks such as Tensai are driven by cylindrical LiIon cells, NCR18650B.

I haven't tested the power bank functionality extensively and i cannot answer my own questions with full certainty yet it appears to work like this:

• the device must be disconnected from the PC Link cable and the PSU adapter cable.
• at least 1 battery must be inserted in the battery cradle. you can insert up to 4 batteries of different chemistries/voltages at the same time, but at least 1 of them needs to have a minimum voltage of x.xxV, otherwise the device would not power up.
• you press the two lower right buttons simultaneously for 0.5sec and the device powers up, displays the 4 voltages, elapsed time, and the output amperage.
• if the user does not connect a smartphone/MP3-player/etc to the skyrc within 10sec, the device powers down. otherwise a red SNB led (slot number button LED) indicates which slot (=battery) is being used for transferring the capacity from the battery to the connected gadget. the device starts with the slot with the highest cell voltage.
• once the battery voltage has dropped below the threshold of x.xxV, the device continues with the slot with the second highest cell voltage in line to carry on the powering of the connected gadget without any break. thru the currently active red SNB led the user knows at any time which battery is being used as power source. of course, in the meantime he/she can feel free to replace the used-up cells with fresh cells to continue feeding the power bank.
• this goes on until all 'usable cells' are depleted or the gadget stops drawing current.

 

[ChibiM]

Can you please explain your meaning of the word "Powerbank".. Im not sure if I understand this sentence
Quote:"the truth is that i hardly know of 1 example with actual market availability"