Sourcing headlamps for freshly built car

[Barbapapa]

Now it's time to mount some headlamps on the mid-engine custom sports car with minimal bodywork. (same car from the 'tail light' recent thread)
I need advice. Quality lighting is important to me but I'm green. My state of registration doesn't have detailed lighting requirements but I want to comply with federal standards and consideration of other drivers.

I never even knew they had LED headlamps until recently, the efficiency appeals to me but I've been skeptical of non-incandescant head light quality.

I do know the quality of light itself is hugely important, sodium streetlights bother me with their hideous ability to define anything well. I've also seen cheap LED reading lights that have terrible ability to make reading easier.
It's tempting to stick with old fashioned halogens, or do I not know what I'm missing?

Aside from the light source, I have to find a smaller size. It would also be nice if low and hi beams could occupy the same lamp, is that practical?

So far I have some halogen Hella 50mm modules lying around, for some reason I worry about their usefulness but again, I'm not knowlegeable.

Aside from Hella, I understand JW Speaker is a quality supplier with smaller lamps available as complete units so I called them but came away confused. They said that their 6130 series '4.5 inch' and model 90 had a variety with low AND hi beam in a single lamp, I was surprised at that and even wonder if the person I spoke with understood the product.

 

[onus]

Going with standardized sealed beam mounting will always give you many lighting upgrades and options to choose from.

Model 90 by JW speaker has a low beam and a high beam module.

If you want cheap check out the hella 90mm bihalogen module. One does both low and highs.

http://www.myhellalights.com/index....lamp-modules/90mm-bi-halogen-headlamp-module/

They also have a separate low and high version.

I'm sure the more knowledgeable people will chime in.

Whats the car you built?

 

[Barbapapa]

Going with standardized sealed beam mounting will always give you many lighting upgrades and options to choose from.

Model 90 by JW speaker has a low beam and a high beam module.

If you want cheap check out the hella 90mm bihalogen module. One does both low and highs.

http://www.myhellalights.com/index....lamp-modules/90mm-bi-halogen-headlamp-module/

They also have a separate low and high version.

I'm sure the more knowledgeable people will chime in.

Whats the car you built?

That Hella seems to combine low and high by way of a movable shutter, hmm. The idea of moving parts seems awkward to me.

The car is my lifelong dream of the ultimate lightweight sportscar. It's built to high standards with few borrowed parts. The modern era of "cheap and easy" disgusts me, function and quality are king to me and putting great effort into details is something I admire that is lost lately.
Right now the car looks like a lowered rail dune buggy, I have to source lights before I can fab the bodywork.

 

[onus]

That Hella seems to combine low and high by way of a movable shutter, hmm. The idea of moving parts seems awkward to me.

The car is my lifelong dream of the ultimate lightweight sportscar. It's built to high standards with few borrowed parts. The modern era of "cheap and easy" disgusts me, function and quality are king to me and putting great effort into details is something I admire that is lost lately.
Right now the car looks like a lowered rail dune buggy, I have to source lights before I can fab the bodywork.

Great idea! You should post some pictures. Quality and workmanship is lost today. It seems most stuff is designed so quickly and thrown out the door. Plus everything pretty much looks all the same.

Then again I'm highly impressed with new cars compared to old one. The modern computer design seems to allow them to find problem areas before it even goes to production.

Check here:

http://www.myhellalights.com/index....odules/headlamp-modules/90mm-headlamp-module/

They have separate low and high beam. The bihalogen works just like they do in production vehicles. I believe these are high quality parts and that the lens is glass so it wont fog. The link above has the separate low and high beam modules. No moving parts in that case.

 

[Barbapapa]

Great idea! You should post some pictures. Quality and workmanship is lost today. It seems most stuff is designed so quickly and thrown out the door. Plus everything pretty much looks all the same.

Then again I'm highly impressed with new cars compared to old one. The modern computer design seems to allow them to find problem areas before it even goes to production.

Check here:

http://www.myhellalights.com/index....odules/headlamp-modules/90mm-headlamp-module/

They have separate low and high beam. The bihalogen works just like they do in production vehicles. I believe these are high quality parts and that the lens is glass so it wont fog. The link above has the separate low and high beam modules. No moving parts in that case.

Thanks.
So there are 90mm and even smaller ones like the 50mm "modules". Since I'm not fitting an existing area and don't need a certain size, is there a reason to avoid the smallest ones? Are there disatvantages?

I can plug in the 50mm one I have here and observe the pattern against a wall but what am I looking for? It does seem to have a crisp upper cutoff if that means anything when observed so casually.

(I'd be glad to post a pic of this car but I don't have permission for attachments.)

 

[-Virgil-]

Forget trying to judge beam pattern by eye. It is not possible because subjective impressions of beam performance are almost always out of step with actual, objective performance. "Crisp" (?? Stays crunchy in milk?) by which I assume you mean sharp cutoff is not on the short list of real, meaningful beam performance characteristics.

The 50mm units are legal but minimal and there is no BiHalogen or BiXenon module available. The Hella 90mm single-function or BiHalogen and BiXenon are quite good, and you shouldn't be scared of the movable shutter; that's how it's done and the requirements for durability and failsafe are quite stringent. JW Speaker's lamps are very good and I would not hesitate to use their 8700 7" round or 8900 200mm x 142mm rectangular high/low beam, their Model 90 low beam and high beam 90mm modules (no single high/low beam module is available in the Model 90 line, at least not yet) or if I wanted a smaller lamp their 8630 5.75" round or 8800HL 165mm x 100mm rectangular high/low beam. Peterson's 7" round high/low LED headlamp (see here just went into production and the pre-production versions I saw looked quite nice.

Of course, all of these, especially the LEDs, are going to be very expensive. Sealed beams + most of the "upgrades" sold to replace them are poor quality and/or poor performers, so you're smart to hesitate before buying. If what you want is a good set of halogen lamps, get Cibies (and/or you might check with Dan Stern and see what interesting goodies he might have stashed away; he's got a warehouse-sized headlamp collection.)

 

[Barbapapa]

I looked at late model car that I've driven at night and been impressed with.
A 2006 Maxima, it has bi-xenon projectors that seem rather small, about 2.75". They have a mechanical shutter. These are the best lights I've experienced.
Are these made by a major lamp supplier and common to other cars?

Mr Stern has been advising me and even digging through piles of lamps. Given the requirement for a smallish 'bi' lamp, he recommends the Hella bi-xenon.

How do xenon and LED compare in ways beyond visible light such as durability, current draw and life? Are there any other factors in good lamp design and performance that are not obvious?

 

[N8N]

Absolutely, the beam pattern is very important but as Scheinwerfermann says it's difficult to evaluate "good" and "bad" just by looking at a white wall - sometimes it's easy to determine that a light is really really bad, but real world use is the best determination of "good." So look for reviews, or someone with all the right test equipment that has tested the particular lamps you're considering.

Also, there's color and spectrum - nothing is going to beat a good halogen in this regard. HIDs have a rather low CRI and I suspect that so do the LEDs used in headlights (has anyone tested the Speaker or Truck-Lite headlights?)

I'd be curious to know exactly what the CRI *is* of various automotive headlights...

Personally I suspect that the absolute best headlights for real pitch black night driving are an will continue to be good old halogens for a while yet - but if you're building the car I would definitely wire them up with a relay box close to the alternator, individual relays for each filament, 14 or 12 AWG wire throughout, etc. While you're at it, use two additional relays for fog lights and/or driving lights in case you decide to add those in the future If you're looking for headlamps that are good but smaller than traditional sealed beam format perhaps what you really want is a halogen projector type. The downside is of course current draw and durability - the halogens will draw 55/60W unless you go brighter than legal, while HIDs are about 35W with LEDs the same or less - and as the light output falls off dramatically with decreased voltage, you *need* the heavy gauge wiring to feed them properly. The results however are worth it! Edit: some consideration probably needs to be given to thermal management with a halogen light as well. Theoretically if you are using an off the shelf assembly this should have been done for you, but you don't want to be e.g. mounting the lights to a part made of thermoplastic.

Don't get me wrong, HIDs can be very good (I have one vehicle with Cibie E-codes and one with factory bi-xenon HIDs and don't have any hesitation about driving either after dark) but you did say no compromises... just like an incandescent flashlight, there's something about halogen headlamps that's just... better. (NB: this is all my own personal opinion.) My reasoning behind this opinion? I see it like this, if the higher CRI and smoother spectrum of the halogen helps me see a deer, pedestrian, etc. that might be washed out by a similarly bright light that doesn't have the same CRI, then the halogens are worth it.

If you need some part numbers for the relay boxes etc. let me know because I have been meaning to rework the off the shelf relay harness in my Jeep for a while to make it more failure proof and have some part numbers saved of products that looked good for the purpose - I just need to dig them out (they're on a partition that's inaccessable to me at the moment as I'm doing something that requires Windows while I'm browsing the forums.)

Finally I wouldn't fear the moveable shutter - my BMW uses them and I've had no problems with them, although the repair bill is likely to be staggering if I ever need to replace a headlamp.

 

[-Virgil-]

I looked at late model car that I've driven at night and been impressed with.
A 2006 Maxima, it has bi-xenon projectors that seem rather small, about 2.75". They have a mechanical shutter. These are the best lights I've experienced.
Are these made by a major lamp supplier and common to other cars?

If I'm not mistaken, those lamps contain a Hella BiXenon projector with D2S bulb.

Given the requirement for a smallish 'bi' lamp, he recommends the Hella bi-xenon.

I agree with a recommendation for the Hella BiXenon modular 90mm projector, which takes a D2S bulb.

How do xenon and LED compare in ways beyond visible light such as durability, current draw and life?

Well-designed and well-made HID and LED lamps will both be more durable than filament-based lamps. You can expect to want to replace the HID bulbs after about 7 to 10 years of average usage. It is popularly common to think of LEDs as "forever" light sources, but while that is theoretically the case there are many design and build factors that go into determining the actual lifespan of an LED (or the headlamp built around it). Current draw of an HID headlamp of the type we're discussing here is about 42 to 45 watts. Current draw of current-production LED headlamps is in that same close neighborhood. Having recently done some closer examination of the modular projector sized LED headlamps presently on the market, I would advise waiting several more years before considering them if high headlight performance is a priority.

Are there any other factors in good lamp design and performance that are not obvious?

Lots! To write them all up would be a book-length post.

 

[-Virgil-]

Also, there's color and spectrum - nothing is going to beat a good halogen in this regard.

True in theory, but practically irrelevant to actual seeing performance. This has been studied in great depth and breadth, and the color rendering of automotive HIDs is quite adequate for any kind of roadgoing usage. The only kind of driving in which excellent CRI might be important is very hairy high speed off road driving where it's necessary to discern very close earth-tone shades from each other. And that "might" really means "might"; there's no data to support this notion, it's just a hypothesis that has not been studied. And it's a question that has to do with driving over sand dunes in the desert, which is not relevant since the original poster is building a roadgoing car. The question of whether HID light quality is somehow inferior has been studied and robustly answered "No".

I'd be curious to know exactly what the CRI *is* of various automotive headlights...

95+ for a properly-wired halogen. 75 to 82 for an HID or LED.

Personally I suspect that the absolute best headlights for real pitch black night driving are an will continue to be good old halogens for a while yet

Uh...no, absolutely not. Given equal engineering and build quality (discarding invalid comparisons of a good lamp of one type to a bad lamp of another type), the HID always gives objectively better safety performance however we measure it. Substantially better, not just a little bit.

The downside is of course current draw and durability

And amount of light on the road: about 300 lumens in the beam from a decent halogen headlamp; about 750 lumens in the beam from an HID. There is no getting around this, no matter what illegal and short-lived high-wattage bulbs one might cram into the halogen lamp.

just like an incandescent flashlight, there's something about halogen headlamps that's just... better. (NB: this is all my own personal opinion.)

And that's all it is -- a subjective opinion that is not supportable by objective fact. "I like halogen lights better", which is what you mean, is defensible, but it is a very different statement than "halogen lights are better" or "halogen lights are best"; those two statements are simply not defensible with reality. Remember -- it's really important to remember -- that subjective impressions of headlight performance are usually far out of line with the objective reality. It's very easy to create the subjective impression of "good" headlighting (such as you think you are experiencing with the various European-code setups you have described in other posts) when their objective safety performance is somewhere between "seriously inadequate" and "marginally adequate". It is likewise very easy to create the subjective impression of "bad" headlighting (such as you think you are experiencing with the various US-spec setups you have described in other posts) when their objective safety performance is somewhere between "adequate" and "good". Subjective impressions like this are useless for answering any question other than "How do you like your headlights?". They do not and cannot answer "How good are your headlamps" or "Which headlamps are better".

I see it like this, if the higher CRI and smoother spectrum of the halogen helps me see a deer, pedestrian, etc. that might be washed out by a similarly bright light that doesn't have the same CRI, then the halogens are worth it.

But the higher CRI and smoother spectrum of the halogen doesn't help you or anyone else see a deer, pedestrian, etc. better than the lower CRI and spikier spectrum of the HID. You are pulling these ideas right out of thin air. They simply do not have any basis in fact. There is nothing wrong with having opinions and preferring "X" over "Y" even if "Y" is objectively better, but i tis really important to keep in mind that while we can each have our own opinion, we cannot each have our own facts, and to whatever degree our opinion is not in line with the facts, the facts win -- especially when someone has asked for the facts.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

(I'd be glad to post a pic of this car but I don't have permission for attachments.)

You don't need to use attachments. Put the image up on some sort of hosting site (flickr or photobucket, for example) and use the [img] and [/img] tags.

For information on the VBB code that works here, go to the BB Code List. (Please, though, don't use the [font] or [color] tags. They typically make posts very hard to read.)

 

[Barbapapa]

(fingers crossed for daring image attempt...)

 

[Barbapapa]

If you need some part numbers for the relay boxes etc. let me know because I have been meaning to rework the off the shelf relay harness in my Jeep for a while to make it more failure proof and have some part numbers saved of products that looked good for the purpose - I just need to dig them out (they're on a partition that's inaccessable to me at the moment as I'm doing something that requires Windows while I'm browsing the forums.)

Thanks! 'Milspec' quality wiring is something I love and am well stocked for.

The CRI is the term I've been thinking of all along but I'm no lighting expert. I do trust the xenon recommendations and my own experience has been good but I have experience similar to the desert racing situations.
I used to drive a similar car at night in the mountains. A common "problem" would be a leaf blowing across the road in front of me that could be a chipmunk size animal. There's always an instant of doubt as I determine what the object is. If it's an animal, I'd make an effort to avoid it so I need to know what's what quickly. In mountain driving, there's often no luxury of a light beam reaching far down the road, things come into view suddenly.

 

[-Virgil-]

The amount of light you have will make a much bigger difference than the CRI in whether you discern a leaf from a chipmunk...and HID beams have longer and wider reach than halogen. Try not to let yourself get distracted by relatively unimportant factors.

 

[N8N]

Well... at the risk of violating some forum rules, let's just say that the setup in my Jeep, besides being wired with 12AWG and relays, uses some bulbs that may be frowned upon in some establishments, so the amount of light exiting the front of the vehicle, at least on high beam, definitely is in the same ballpark as an average HID setup

I have had no problems with authority or inspectors with this setup, but then again, I do pretty much patronize only one shop and the guy likes me because he knows I do a lot of my own work and has seen said work and knows it's all done in a workmanlike manner so that may ease his conscience in overlooking that one violation...

By the way, what's the drivetrain in that car? I am not having any luck identifying the engine from the valve cover... Porsche transaxle or something else? Definitely looks promising though.

 

[Barbapapa]

By the way, what's the drivetrain in that car? I am not having any luck identifying the engine from the valve cover... Porsche transaxle or something else? Definitely looks promising though.

That's a Buick 215 and Porsche transaxle. It's my 'temporary' engine. I planned on designing a small V12 but am distracted by a wonderful Ferrari V12 I found so that'll be going in there. I'd like to get the lighting done first though.

 

[-Virgil-]

Well... at the risk of violating some forum rules, let's just say that the setup in my Jeep, besides being wired with 12AWG and relays, uses some bulbs that may be frowned upon in some establishments, so the amount of light exiting the front of the vehicle, at least on high beam, definitely is in the same ballpark as an average HID setup

Almost certainly not on low beam or high beam, but let's take an extreme comparison and use it to look at your claim. The highest-output H4 bulb generally available is the 130/100w item made by Philips and Narva. It produces 3250 lumens on high beam, and a D2S bulb produces 3200 lumens. However, the D2S bulb produces those 3200 lumens from 35w, with very high luminance and tightly-defined beam focus (due to relatively small arc) with a Tc lifespan of 3,000 hours. The 130/100w H4 high beam produces its 3250 lumens from 130w (3.7+ times the power) with very low luminance and poor beam focus (due to relatively large filament) with a Tc lifespan of 30 hours (1/100 the lifespan).

So on high beam we've got about the same luminous flux coming off the light source. That doesn't mean we have the same amount of light coming out the front of the headlamp, though -- a common error in comparisons and a big reason why we have to compare like to like.

Then there are other problems with bulbs like the 130/100w H4 that don't exist with a headlamp designed to use a light source producing these levels of flux. Such as the massively overlit foreground which destroys your distance visual acuity while simultaneously creating the (false) impression of "excellent" headlighting.

But let's stay with our hypothetical extreme-example comparison and assume you're using a top-notch H4 headlamp such as a Cibie Z-beam, which gives a peak low beam intensity of 18,052cd when equipped with a premium-quality 60/55w H4 bulb operated at 13.5v (i.e., not starved). Under those conditions, the low beam of such an H4 emits 1241 lumens. Now let's swap in our 130/100w H4, which when operated at the same 13.5v produces 1965 lumens. Disregarding factors that degrade the beam performance as filament wattage increases, the peak intensity on low beam with this bulb would be 28,584cd. The 50th-percentile peak intensity from first-generation US-spec HID low beams scrutinized 14 years ago is 28,603cd, a very comparable number…but even these relatively primitive lamps produced a much larger high-intensity zone and a much wider overall beam than can be produced by an H4 lamp with a high-wattage bulb, and they did it without overlighting the foreground.

If you started with a less exotic H4 headlamp, such as a Hella 7" round, your 100w bulb gets you 19,621cd, just about equal to the Z-beam with the standard-power bulb, but its intensity peak is very far over to the right (4.5 degrees or so), severely limiting forward seeing distance no matter how bright the light source.

And all this is a comparison to first-generation HID headlamps. When a comparably market-weighted collection of newer HID headlamps were scrutinized, they were found to be very significantly better than the first-generation items, moving the goalposts even further out of reach for a halogen headlamp.

The short version: No, you generally cannot approach the performance of an HID headlamp with a halogen headlamp. You may well be able to attain adequate performance, and you can almost certainly attain performance you (subjectively) find acceptable, but not equal performance.

(Oh yeah...and you can do it legally with HID headlamps!)

 

[Hamilton Felix]

You certainly can do it legally with HID or LED. I think I will hang onto my position that it's not all that cost effective for most cars and trucks - but only for a few more years. I say that as someone who blew money (out of curiosity) for HID headlights on a sedan with a 100 amp alternator and a ready made light mounting bar. I freely admit I could have put a half dozen big halogens on there for less money.

On a custom that's meant to have best of everything, IN ITS BUILDER'S EYES, I say go for the light that truly makes you happy, be it halogen, HID or JW Speaker's expensive LED. More power to ya!

 

[N8N]

That's a Buick 215 and Porsche transaxle. It's my 'temporary' engine. I planned on designing a small V12 but am distracted by a wonderful Ferrari V12 I found so that'll be going in there. I'd like to get the lighting done first though.

Nice. Although I'd be tempted to keep the 215 because I have a penchant for old school cool. Maybe fix it up with some TVR bits?

The short version: No, you generally cannot approach the performance of an HID headlamp with a halogen headlamp. You may well be able to attain adequate performance, and you can almost certainly attain performance you (subjectively) find acceptable, but not equal performance.

(Oh yeah...and you can do it legally with HID headlamps!)

And there's the rub, there's not a level playing field between halogen and HID, because legally HIDs are allowed to be brighter than halogens.

Personally, studies aside, I feel that the conservative thing to do is to pick the light source that has the best spectrum, because it may not help, but it can't possibly hurt. Unfortunately, to do that one needs to bend the rules a little, as there is no way to *legally* implement a halogen solution with the same output as HIDs. It is easy to physically do it, especially when you are at the stage that you are in construction - multiple lights, relay harnesses, overwatt bulbs, etc - but not legal.

OP: I honestly don't know how things work in your neck of the woods, but I assume that your vehicle will need to pass some sort of roadworthiness inspection before being registered. You may want to find out how your choice of headlights affects what you need to do. I'm ASSuming that you're in the US, but if not, e.g. in an ECE country you would probably have to use some kind of self-leveling mechanism and headlamp washers if you use HIDs.

 

[Barbapapa]

OP: I honestly don't know how things work in your neck of the woods, but I assume that your vehicle will need to pass some sort of roadworthiness inspection before being registered. You may want to find out how your choice of headlights affects what you need to do. I'm ASSuming that you're in the US, but if not, e.g. in an ECE country you would probably have to use some kind of self-leveling mechanism and headlamp washers if you use HIDs.

I'm in the US. I'll have a state inspection. My state has code for equipment including interesting tidbits like a requirement that all headlamps have aiming pads, there's a minimum height requirement for head and tail lamps that's slightly higher than the federal FMVSS which is an interesting conflict. It's safe to comply with the state minimum height but does the federal requirement render it invalid?

Even though DOT compliance isn't part of the state inspection as I understand it, I want to comply. Aside from the warm feeling, I also expect higher quality from parts that are presented as compliant by quality suppliers.
I'm scared of the flood of cheap crap designed not to last 100k miles but to impress the ignorant with stupid sales BS like different colors of light to match the color of expected dust etc. I'm also scared of issues from cobbling together my own lighting and want to stick with reliability as the most important trait.

I agree that halogen lighting is good. Being used to using a certain light for the majority of one's life might be a factor too. But then I drive a car with oem HID and am amazed by the glorious barrage of light. I could get used to that!