Time to move to LED?

[Badmojo]

When I moved into my house 5 years ago I went to Lowe's and purchased a box of cheap PAR30 CFL's for the recessed flood lighting in my house. Many of them failed within a year, and so the next go round I spent some cash and bought a box of 6 "Megaman" SLI Lighting item # 48011's. I bought these based on some very good reviews, but they seem to be more popular in the UK than here in the US. They have been a lot better than the cheapies; they don't take as long to get to full brightness, and they've lasted much longer.

I was going to buy another box of 6, but I thought I should check the status of LED floods. It seems there have been a lot of technology breakthroughs in the last 2 years, and LED prices are much better than I was seeing back then.

Is it time to move to LED? These recessed lights are NOT on a dimmable switch; so should I look for a strictly non-dimmable bulb, or doesn't that matter much?

Thanks!

 

[deadrx7conv]

No, I wouldn't move yet. Unless you're completely dissatisfied with your CFL, I'd wait.
Unlike many ranting/raving about LED lighting, the available replacement bulbs are still lacking. The few BR/R/PAR LED bulbs that I've tested ended up outside in security/motionsensor mounts. Sadly had to continue with CFL/Halogen/Incan. I'd say wait about 2 more years. The technology is out there but the best tech isn't available in every bulb size everywhere.

The other option is to move away from bulbs and get retrofit modules like the Cree CR or LR, Halo, or competitor/store equivalents:
http://www.cree.com/lighting/products/indoor
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/lighting/brands/halo.html

 

[jtr1962]

IMHO, LED is already there for dedicated fixtures but not quite there yet for screw-in replacement bulbs. I agree with deadrx7conv. You'll have much better choices and will probably spend less money if you wait about 2 years. By then all the brand name LED retrofits should be over 100 lm/W.

 

[wws944]

I have replaced all my recessed BR30 bulbs and associated can trim with Cree CR6 and would not consider going back. The CR6 is actually priced at $25/each at my local Home Depot - though this is a subsidized price that is higher in other parts of the country. Considering that my 'tiered' utility rates are in the $0.30 - $0.50/kwh range, break even on the investment (compared to incandescent) is under a year. Compared to CFL, the break-even point is further out. But the Crees light quality and dimmability are vastly superior to CFL. I even like the light quality better than incandescent.

 

[Badmojo]

The other option is to move away from bulbs and get retrofit modules like the Cree CR or LR, Halo, or competitor/store equivalents:
http://www.cree.com/lighting/products/indoor
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/lighting/brands/halo.html

Oh hai, what are these??? I've never heard of this! What are the advantages? Does that CR6 include the bulb? Is it all integrated? Do you have to change the whole unit if it burns out?

Thanks for all the opinions!

 

[wws944]

Oh hai, what are these??? I've never heard of this! What are the advantages? Does that CR6 include the bulb? Is it all integrated?

The CR6 integrates LED unit and trim. So you would remove the old bulb, trim, and the bracket which holds the socket. Screw the CR6 to the socket, spread its 'wings', and push it up into the can. Takes about a minute.

Do you have to change the whole unit if it burns out?

Yes, you would have to change the whole unit someday when it needs replacing. But with an estimated lifetime of 25-30k hours, you won't need to change them very often.

 

[blasterman]

I have replaced all my recessed BR30 bulbs and associated can trim with Cree CR6 and would not consider going back.

Ditto. Everybody I know who's made this move, and this list growing, loves the new Cree's. Especially nice for residential where you actually prefer the warmer nature of incan. The Cree's do incan better than incan if you ask me.

 

[Badmojo]

The CR6 integrates LED unit and trim. So you would remove the old bulb, trim, and the bracket which holds the socket. Screw the CR6 to the socket, spread its 'wings', and push it up into the can. Takes about a minute.

I see. I'm still sort of confused - is this the same thing? What's the dimmable base?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0040RZ02W/?tag=cpf0b6-20

 

[wws944]

I see. I'm still sort of confused - is this the same thing? What's the dimmable base?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0040RZ02W/?tag=cpf0b6-20

That is the unit. But check your local Home Depot before buying from Amazon. Depending on where you live, some local utility companies subsidize them. Locally, mine has them for $25/each.

 

[lightwater]

A different light fitting but never the less, I've got 8 x 2700k Philips 10w mr16 down lights. 4 are in the same room (lounge/dining & kitchen) as 4 halogens. The LEDs are a touch pinker in colour rendition, the halogens (also Philips) seem a touch green in relation but it's not a lot & both lights work well together. I still use the halogens in the kitchen as the LEDs are not quite bright enough.

Also got 4 Philips 3000k down lights in another room, did try them in the L/D/K, they were a touch cool in the lounge but ok in the kitchen but were not quite bright enough, using them in a workroom with I feel is better than the 2700k.

My personal view is spend the money & get top quality LEDs that are in regular use, & wait a bit for your low usage lamps. 2700k LEDs have a nice colour rendition for domestic use in lounge, dining, bedroom, bathroom. 3000k works better in a kitchen as long as you have enough fittings.

But just concentrate on the high usage lights with LEDs at this stage.

 

[beley]

... What's the dimmable base?....

If you mean the "Cree LR6 LED - 12 Watt - Dimmable - Screw-In Base - 2700K Warm White - Fits 6 in. Can Fixtures[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]" [/FONT]that is show in the "frequently Bought Together.." bar, its just a different Cree product, basically is the brighter version the the CR6

BTW there are also CR4 units if you have 4" cans.

 

[LEDninja]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

How to install Cree's CR6 LED downlight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UKP_lvzY3A

Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...cs-of-HD-EcoSmart-65W-(Cree-Cr6)-light-engine

The CR4 for the smaller 4" cans is also available.

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Sylvania has the RT4 and RT6 available.

Lighting Science have the Glimpse. This one is more of a flush mount that fits in a 6" can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKV0prWPIco
Warning. I have a Lighting Science G25 bulb and it emits enough RF to knock out my TV (rabbit ears).

----

PM sent.

 

[degarb]

I would move to the led, but they lack one thing: a clicky controller. See, flashlights can be quickly clicked off/on to change the brightness to, say 3 levels; why can't house lights? Build this into the bulb, and save me a ton of electricity. A 10 watt LED could be 10/5/1 watt, cycle-able with fast off/on.

How about "auto-off" settable to 15 minutes, 1.5 hours, 3 hours? That would entice me to plunk down $17 x 15-20 bulbs to replace cfls.

Pardon my ignorance too, they say 35000 hours, but what brands are backed up with real warranty by manufacturer? Philips, is looking good these days to me.

 

[moozooh]

Any good cheap 220–240V E27 incan replacements out there? I've been looking at Philips's recent endeavors, but they all seem to be done for the American market. I'm looking for something close to 80+ lm/W and 85+ CRI for less than 40$/30€. Are we there yet?

 

[LEDninja]

Any good cheap 220–240V E27 incan replacements out there? I've been looking at Philips's recent endeavors, but they all seem to be done for the American market. I'm looking for something close to 80+ lm/W and 85+ CRI for less than 40$/30€. Are we there yet?

80+ lm/W NO. The manufacturers are competing with CFLs and are usually doing the same as CFL. 60 - 66 lm/W. But LEDs are more directional. If you can point the bulb where you need light you can go one size down. Lux/W is better with LED.
You can get higher lm/W if you are willing to go 'Bright White' (5000°K.cool white)

85+ CRI NO. there are a few companies that offer high CRI but they are expensive. 80+ CRI is normal for 'Soft White'.

less than 40$/30€.
From amazon.de:
- Philips Master LED Bulb 12W/220V E-27 dimmbar warmweiß EUR 33,90
This one has the LEDs facing sideways. All around light.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?308557-Philips-12w-Teardown
- Philips Ledino LED-Birne E27, 11 W 19302900 EUR 23,79
This newer one has the LEDs facing forward. Works best when you can point the bulb in the direction you need light.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ips-bulbs-800lm-amp-450lm-bulbs-at-Home-Depot
- In Canada (115V 60Hz 12.5W & 10.5W) both types are 800 lumen 60W equivalent.

 

[moozooh]

Thanks. I think I'm gonna sit it out until there are more/better options, particularly with better color rendering—no other reason for me to make such an expensive move as grid power is very cheap where I live (it'll take something like a decade for it to break even with CFL with my usage scenario). 80 CRI is decent for flashlights but barely on par with CFL, especially if you mix their CCTs like I do; ideally I'd want 90+ like that L-Prize bulb.

 

[blasterman]

80 CRI is decent for flashlights but barely on par with CFL

Efficiency is all over the place with 'A' style LED retrofits, and that's common knowledge. The Dept of Energy's last caliper survey is over a year old, but by and and large LEDninja is pretty close with his 60-66 lumen per watt range. I'd like to think we're creeping higher than that, but I like to see independant tests first before believing what's on the box. Some of the pricier new bulbs are likely in the 70's range, but it's a guess.

Where I totally disagree with you guys is color rendering. Even the mediocre LED bulbs in the warm white range don't score less than 80CRI...which is because it's hard to make a warm white LED with low CRI.

CFL's in the 2700-3500 range tend to be around 80-82 CRI depending on what phosphor set they are using. Franly I'm skeptical of that because there's no marketing reason to use commecial caliber T5/T8 phosphors in a retail CFL given the market that is buying screw in CFLs. Exotic CFLs can go as high as 95CRI in the 5000-6000k range.

Name brand LED retrofits in the warm white category CCT range seem to be averaging about 82-85 CRI. Cree's dedicated fixtures go as high as 90 or higher.

For the sake of arguement, even if we assume that warm white LED retrofits and CFLs have the same CRI the nature of the color is totally different. The CFL spectrum is a bunch of narrow spikes while the LED's have a typically smooth slope. This is why pretty much everybody I know that's been using warm-white LED retrofits go 'ugh' and 'blah' when going back to CFL at the same CCT. It's really bad when comparing 4000k LEDs at 85 CRI to neutral white CFLs.

 

[moozooh]

Eh, not sure why you quoted that bit if the rest of your post was pretty much entirely tangential to it. Point is, Europe seems to be screwed (sorry for the pun) once again with regards to screw-ins, as the options here are scarcer and 1.5 to 2 times more expensive than comparable US-standard offers—such as Philips's 800 lm Endura and L-Prize bulbs, they just don't exist for E27. None of the E27 bulbs I know offer more than 80 CRI at an affordable price. I'm completely confident that prices will decrease by 25% to 50% in the next couple years at most. If you want to replace all household CFLs with LED, that's worth waiting for, as the difference in initial cost is expected to be larger than the money lost to less efficient lighting for typical household workloads (read: ≈3 hr/day).

Of course, good quality light is expensive, and there's no doubt LEDs can already provide the best quality indoor light there is, but there's a great deal of confidence the LED bulb prices—both initial cost and operation—will continue to drop until they stabilize at a level comparable to CFLs'. By that point CFLs will have become even cheaper to remain competitive, of course, but as LEDs are still far from reaching their limit, many manufacturers will see that and move on. Right now... let's just say it's not exactly economically feasible to mass-move from CFLs for marginal, if any, increase in brightness, and comparably marginal improvement in color rendering, in my opinion.

 

[Anders Hoveland]

there's no doubt LEDs can already provide the best quality indoor light there is

I disagree. I have just not been entirely satisfied with the quality of light from currently available LED's. The "warm white" ones have somewhat of an eery orange-purple tint, and it is more difficult for me to concentrate under them. This is probably because the currently sold white LED chips used in these bulbs are deficient in cyan-indigo frequency light. While LED light is certainly better than CFL's, I still prefer normal incandescent bulbs, or even better halogen.

I have gotten sick and tired of people just talking about "color temperature" and CRI. The spectrum output and quality of light is more complex than this. Just because it is 2700K and 90CRI does not necessarily mean it is "just like regular light bulbs", or that I will be okay with it. The first thing I want to see when evaluating a new type of light is the spectrum graph.

I have done some experimenting, and found that the best quality of light seems to be achieved with primarily halogen light mixed with a lesser quantity of bright white LED light. I think this combination gives the most complete spectrum.

I am very optimistic about LED technology, but considering the current LED bulbs that are available, I much more prefer regular incandescents or halogens, especially for reading.

Besides from the quality of light, another problem is that the type of LED bulbs currently available is limited. The bulbs available either do not have enough light output, or are too directional for lamps. Many of the bulbs will not even fit into normal light fixtures or lamps because the diameter of their cooling fins is too wide. While there are some specialty higher-power LED replacement bulbs available through online stores, their electronics seem to be lower quality and they have a small degree of flickering, not to mention a mildly annoying 2 second delay before they turn on.

Currently available LED bulbs are good for several specific applications and situations, but I do not feel they are entirely suitable for replacing all the bulbs in one's home.

 

[moozooh]

I disagree. I have just not been entirely satisfied with the quality of light from currently available LED's. The "warm white" ones have somewhat of an eery orange-purple tint, and it is more difficult for me to concentrate under them. This is probably because the currently sold white LED chips used in these bulbs are deficient in cyan-indigo frequency light.

I wasn't only talking about bulbs. Stuff like Cree's EazyWhite arrays, to my knowledge, have never been made into a bulb.

That is to say, I don't like regular light bulbs at all, and I don't like the light of most CFLs. I like daylight. I have faith that LEDs will be able to closely imitate daylight in terms of color rendition and CCT, even if brightness and dispersion is still way out of their league.