Toyota Recalls - Observations?

[gadget_lover]

The most obvious thing I can see, and one which is being ignored by just about everybody --

1. The United States government now owns a big amount of General Motors.
2. Toyota competes with General Motors, among others.
3. The United States government is now investigating Toyota.

It may all be totally on the up & up, but it really doesn't take much thought at all to see a conflict of interest here.

The reason it's largely ignored (by me, at least) is that the government is not a person. As such, it is not greedy. It does not have a sense of self preservation.

The reason it's being investigated is because the media made such a big deal about it. The media blew it out of proportion for the same reason that we were inundated with Kate+8 reports. It was a story they could sell. Once it became a big story the feds HAD to investigate.

The fact that all of the news sources are owned by a handful of companies has put us in a position where the editorial decisions of a few men/women can influence what we perceive as the truth. Sad, but I think it's true.

Daniel

 

[Big_Ed]

The most obvious thing I can see, and one which is being ignored by just about everybody --

1. The United States government now owns a big amount of General Motors.

2. Toyota competes with General Motors, among others.

3. The United States government is now investigating Toyota.

It may all be totally on the up & up, but it really doesn't take much thought at all to see a conflict of interest here.

Yeah, but with all the deaths, media attention and such, if the government didn't investigate, imagine how many people would be crying the government isn't doing anything to protect people. Better to investigate, than to ignore it.

 

[Monocrom]

The reason it's largely ignored (by me, at least) is that the government is not a person. As such, it is not greedy. It does not have a sense of self preservation.

True, the Government is not a person. But it is run by people. And greed has nothing to do with self-preservation. There's a well-known person in his 70s (forgot his name at the moment) who made about 12 billion (not a typo) during the current Wall Street scandal. Now that's greed right there.

As for politicians, a lot of them are just as greedy.

 

[KD5XB]

Yeah, but with all the deaths, media attention and such, if the government didn't investigate, imagine how many people would be crying the government isn't doing anything to protect people. Better to investigate, than to ignore it.

What deaths? I haven't heard of any, about all I have heard about are stories where somebody claims their car accelerated. In fact, the most recent story is starting to sound like the ravings of a bankrupt lunatic.

 

[paulr]

What deaths? I haven't heard of any, about all I have heard about are stories where somebody claims their car accelerated. In fact, the most recent story is starting to sound like the ravings of a bankrupt lunatic.

Have you been following the news? Do you think Toyota recalled millions of cars for no reason? Yes that recent guy appears to be this week's Balloon Boy as Jalopnik put it. But yes, recurring Toyota uncontrolled acceleration appears to be a real problem, though its exact cause is not yet known (at least by anyone who is telling).

LA Times story claiming 56 deaths so far: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-deaths-mainbar28-2010feb28,0,2282376.story

A fast Google search will get you plenty more info.

 

[KD5XB]

Have you been following the news? Do you think Toyota recalled millions of cars for no reason?

Well, let me explain something -- I drive an 18-wheeler long haul, and I don't carry a TV. I have a choice of AM/FM or recorded material. About the only news I get is via the radio when I happen to have it on at the right time. As for why Toyota recalled all those vehicles -- no, I don't think it was for NO reason, I think it was because of the media frenzy surrounding the issue. Anything they can do to sell papers or airtime, they will. Remember, Audi had the same peoblem years ago and the media did the same thing then, only to find that people were stepping on the wrong pedal.

You might consider being a little less critical of other forum members.

 

[Brigadier]

http://www.hulu.com/watch/134733/saturday-night-live-weekend-getaway

 

[Steve K]

just a thought on the whole matter....

I've been working on and designing sensors and operator controls on earthmoving equipment for 10 years now, along with other design work prior, going back to the mid 80's. I'm following the whole issue closely, and would love to know the technical details.

I think the details of the pedal sensor are pretty well established. It's a CTS sensor, dual analog output with the two signals separated by a volt or half volt (approx.). I talked to an engineer that I know at CTS, and he mentioned that the sensor is based on hall cells, so it's electronic and not potentiometers.

The ECM/ECU in the car is an unknown to me, both in terms of software and hardware.

Due to the dual redundancy in the sensor, it seems unlikely that it would be the cause. Even in the event of a double fault, such as was demonstrated by the professor in Carbondale, one of the two faults occurred first, and should have been caught by the ECU which should have reduced the throttle.

The ECU hardware and software is still a possible culprit, I think. I've seen cases where odd voltage spikes occur that cause the program pointer to jump into undesired chunks of program code, with the result of unexpected behavior. It took months of trying to duplicate the voltage spike before we succeeded, and that was possible only because the unexpected behavior left its mark in the device's memory.

I am certain that Toyota is trying to figure out what is going on, but I'm also certain that this could be extremely difficult. And in the meantime, if the problem is in the ECU, then it is possible that it could be briefly ignoring all pedal inputs and injecting the maximum fuel quantity. Interesting problem, but I'm glad I'm not part of the team that has to find the answer fast.

regards,
Steve K.
(shoot, that wasn't a quick reply, was it?)

 

[Monocrom]

Remember the good old days when you pressed on a pedal and there were no electronics, sensors, or programming getting in the way.

All you needed was a mechanic if there was a problem. Now you need an MIT graduate to figure out why the brake-pedal doesn't work. :thumbsdow

 

[gadget_lover]

Yes, I remember the good old days. The manual choke, the sticky throttle plates, the points that needed attention every 3,000 miles or less.

I remmber the plugs that wore out in 10,000 miles.

I remember the car stumbling when it was cold anytime I floored it.

I remember brakes that faded badly after the first few stops.

I remember sitting behind a 1960's vintage car and choking on the fumes. That has happened MANY times since the Good Guys car show comes to my town a couple of times a year.

Daniel

 

[Steve K]

but.... you got so familiar with all of the car's problems that you learned how to fix them, and adapted to the not-so-good behavior. There's something to be said for that.

of course, I drive a 14 year old Honda product... not too much electronics, but enough to make it run well. Too bad they hadn't figured out how to keep it from rusting out at the rear wheel wells.

Steve K.
(so who knows where all of the tech data is on the Toyota problem?)

 

[gadget_lover]

If my 1964 Plymouth Belvadere were produced today, it would be decalred un-road worthy due to:

1) poor handling
2) brakes that could fail all at once (a single hydraulic line)
3) Loss of power steering when the engine died.
4) A choke that would sometimes stick open, sometimes closed.
5) A floor mat that curled under the brake pedal, greatly reducing the stopping power.
6) A fuel line that, on a real hot day, would vaprize the gas, making the engine stall at unpredictable times.

In the course of owning that car for 3 years, I only experienced each problem a time or two, but I think it makes teh point that the old way was not always better.

Daniel

 

[Monocrom]

In the course of owning that car for 3 years, I only experienced each problem a time or two, but I think it makes teh point that the old way was not always better.

Daniel

Sorry to hear you had so many problems with your classic car. But not everyone had as many issues.

 

[rodfran]

If it had been a 1968 Pymouth Roadrunner or GTX with a hemi or a 440, your opinion might have been different. lol A good friend of mine had a GTX with 440, a/c, cruise, and front disc brakes that he took on his honeymoon. It was a great car. Of course, gas was cheaper back then, too!

 

[jtr1962]

Sorry to hear you had so many problems with your classic car. But not everyone had as many issues.

My brother has 3 classic cars ( 1966 Toronado, 1969 Mark III, 1970(?) Thunderbird ). They all have issues of one sort or another which plain don't exist with the 1994 Mark VIII he drives daily. I remember the boots for the front wheel drive on his Toronado have never been right, no matter what he did. None of the three stay in tune for long without fiddling. Don't even get me started on how bad the exhaust fumes from these old cars are. I get nauseous enough when a modern SUV passes by, but those old cars make you puke in about 30 seconds. When he used to run them in the driveway, it was like I could feel the cancer growing inside me. Sometimes newer things really are better. When electrics become mainstream then you might actually go back to being able to work on them yourself, just like the old cars ( not that electrics break down much anyway ). Very simple-battery, motor controller, electric motor. If you use hub motors there aren't even any gears. As the electric motors provide the braking you don't need brake rotors or brake pads or brake cylinders. Best of all-no fumes! If/when something breaks, it should be plainly obvious what the problem is.

Anyway, no argument that modern cars, like modern electronics, have reached the point where most people haven't a clue how to fix them. That's the price you pay for increased reliability I suppose. I'd rather have something which I can't fix myself which rarely breaks down, than something which breaks often which I can fix. Besides, almost nobody nowadays wants to get their hands dirty fixing cars. It's hard enough to find people willing to do it for what they're paying mechanics, never mind as a hobby.

 

[luckybucket]

My truck has had the throttle stuck twice (mechanical linkage), and with only drum brakes on the rear axle, the engine easily overpowers the brakes. I just shut it off, you lose power sterring but vacuum pressure remains in the brake booster a while after the car is shut off. I really do not trust the drive by wire systems because when the sensor starts to wear out it becomes "noisy" and can input random throttle positions, plus throttle response is worse.

Drum brakes actually work better than disc because they have mechanical leverage against the drums and much more friction surface. I just realized that the problem may be from insufficient vacuum to the booster when the engine is at full throttle for too long. You will have vacuum at first from the reserve canister, but after that is used you won't have any until the engine is back at idle. I think some engines actually do make a little vacuum at full rpm's but not enough to help the brakes. I sure wish I had my old clunker so I could try that out.

 

[luckybucket]

Toyota's legendary reputation took a major hit that it's not going to recover from overnight.

My best friend's wife found out her Camry was on the huge recall list. All those models . . .

She wasn't taking any chances. Traded in her Camry for a slightly used Saturn Aura. I can't blame her. She's like the little sister I never had. Really hits home when a major safety issue involves a loved one.

Can't believe some of the dealers were actually saying it was the fault of the customers who used 2 or 3 extra floor mats. Yeah, it's a floor mat issue. Nothing to do with Toyota enginners folking up with an unsafe design feature that ended up in several popular models.

It wont be overnight, but people will forget quickly. I say this because Ford seems to be a popular brand right now and they had that incident with explorers rolling over. I would still buy a Toyota right now before I bought anything else if that was my favorite brand, but I'm a Honda fan. I realize every company makes mistakes, but you can't ignore a proven track record.

 

[InTheDark]

Yes, I remember the good old days. The manual choke, the sticky throttle plates, the points that needed attention every 3,000 miles or less.

I remmber the plugs that wore out in 10,000 miles.

I remember the car stumbling when it was cold anytime I floored it.

I remember brakes that faded badly after the first few stops.

I remember sitting behind a 1960's vintage car and choking on the fumes. That has happened MANY times since the Good Guys car show comes to my town a couple of times a year.

Daniel

I'm reliving the good ol' days everyday in my 35 year old car. Let's not forget the vague manual steering, the 4 wheel drum (non-ABS) brakes, no crumple zones, periodic valve adjustments, carb adjustments, points setting, and poor handling. Ah, the good old days. People who long for the days of the all mechanical, non-electronic cars probably don't remember what it was like driving those cars and what a constant pain it was to keep it running.

I'm wondering when exactly did the responsibility for car problems shift to the automakers, even if it is found to be a design problem? Stuck gas pedals are nothing new, they've been around as long as there have been cars. I can guarantee that every car company has had a similar complaint in their almost all of their cars at some point. The causes might have been different, but the results are the same. How much responsibility is there for an automaker to produce a defect free car? For example, take the Ford Explorer crisis just a decade ago, is it the carmakers responsibility to make a car that can not flip over under any circumstances? Now Toyota is facing another issue with the car stalling. It sucks to have that happen, but is Toyota (or any other company for that matter) legally responsible to provide a 100% defect free car? Or does the driver of the car share some responsibility to know how to handle a given failure?

 

[gadget_lover]

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I really do not trust the drive by wire systems because when the sensor starts to wear out it becomes "noisy" and can input random throttle positions, plus throttle response is worse.

I would be quite surprised if any control sensor uses a simple single analog input like that. The Toyota design (based on a post I read) uses two sensors that work in opposite directions so that a failure of one sensor is easily detected. A failure of either sensor, or a short or an open, will result in an invalid input condition.

Noise should not be a major problem. We long ago learned how to use twisted pair cables and differential inputs. An RF noise cancels itself in these designs.

The biggest fear is that some wet behind the ears manager will hire an over enthusiastic intern to design parts, and have a similar situation in the QA and QC departments. Interns can be scary.

Daniel

 

[jtr1962]

I'm wondering when exactly did the responsibility for car problems shift to the automakers, even if it is found to be a design problem? Stuck gas pedals are nothing new, they've been around as long as there have been cars. I can guarantee that every car company has had a similar complaint in their almost all of their cars at some point. The causes might have been different, but the results are the same. How much responsibility is there for an automaker to produce a defect free car? For example, take the Ford Explorer crisis just a decade ago, is it the carmakers responsibility to make a car that can not flip over under any circumstances? Now Toyota is facing another issue with the car stalling. It sucks to have that happen, but is Toyota (or any other company for that matter) legally responsible to provide a 100% defect free car? Or does the driver of the car share some responsibility to know how to handle a given failure?

I agree 100% here. A car is a mechanical device ( and lately a mechanical/electronic device ). At some point there is likely to be a failure. Unless it's a really glaring oversight by the manufacturer ( say putting inadequate brakes on a car which can go 150 mph ), then the manufacturer shouldn't be held liable. Field failures are part of operating a vehicle. Any competent driver should be trained to deal with them. The fact that most aren't speaks volumes of the ridiculously easy licensing procedure in place. It's high time standards where greatly increased, and everyone retested to the new standards.

I read something in the paper today about another Toyota "runaway". Fortunately this time Toyota accessed the black box and found that the brake pedal wasn't even being pressed! That should get them off the hook in this case. The driver didn't even take minimal steps to slow the car down, assuming it really did run away ( I personally think he/she just stepped on the wrong pedal ).

I also don't see what all the fuss is over black boxes. Every other type of vehicle has them,. They are regularly checked by authorities in the event of an accident. It's been this way for years. Cars shouldn't be any different. In fact, the black box should be standard equipment and in an open format which authorities ( or even the car owner ) can read. I think readily accessible black box data would help a lot of drivers involved in accidents not their fault clear their names. Often when there are no witnesses the insurance companies assign some liability to each driver. Black box data would prevent that. It might also enable us to weed out habitually accident-prone drivers, then get them off the roads for good. There are no privacy issues here. When you step into an automobile and operate it on public roads, whatever you do in regards to the operation of that auto is subject to public record.