Upgraded reverse lights

[-Virgil-]

Take careful note: DRLs can be amber if (and only if) they are implemented by steady-burning operation of the front turn signals. It is not allowed to have amber DRLs that do not also serve as the turn signals, because such lamps greatly reduce the conspicuity of the front turn signals. Please undo this unwise modification. The 1156s should be adequate, but if you want the DRLs slightly brighter use good quality #3497 bulbs (impossible to buy in the aftermarket any more, you can only get junk. There's a Honda part number floating around for the genuine Stanley-made item).

 

[Phatty McPatty]

Got it. Thanks for the tip on the 3497's. Quoted is the Honda part #:

You can still get good ones from your local Honda dealer, though. Part number for the single-filament 3497 is 34903-SF1-A01. The 3497 single filament is 45cp. These have nickel-plated bases and so can be used without problems in place of P21W and P21/5W. (for reference, the 796 is 62cp and an 1156 is 32cp).

Finally, any recommendations for quality replacement sockets? Also, how do I find the lug type and proper focal length?

 

[argleargle]

LED drop-in 1156-socket format is available in many colors and both 6v and 12v flavors. Some of them are very weak, especially the older ones. Some of them are nice. You just have to get one and try. I have a whole bunch of samples somewhere that I can't find and don't remember sources off of the top of my head.

Some of them are quite good. Mine are unlabelled and I've lost the info on them. Sorry. It's in a lost box somewhere.

I have a couple of them that I hold against the terminals of a 9v battery and use it like a little flashlight. I play with them, my favorites are sitting on the table next to me and I don't remember where I got them.

My most recent sample came in something like October of last year. They were pretty rocking.

...but a good solution exists!

 

[Phatty McPatty]

LED drop-in 1156-socket format is available in many colors and both 6v and 12v flavors. Some of them are very weak, especially the older ones. Some of them are nice. You just have to get one and try. I have a several samples somewhere that I can't find and don't remember sources off of the top of my head.

Some of them are quite good. Mine are unlabelled and I've lost the info on them. Sorry. It's in a lost box somewhere.

I have a couple of them that I hold against the terminals of a 9v battery and use it like a little flashlight. I play with them, my favorites are sitting on the table next to me and I don't remember where I got them.

I may or may not have gotten some of them at ...., but I can't say that 100% I've gotten samples from like 8 places... or something.

:huh2: What does that have to do with the discussion?

 

[Alaric Darconville]

LED drop-in 1156-socket format is available in many colors and both 6v and 12v flavors.

LED "drop-ins" in the 1156 format (or any other format wherein the LED "drop-in" is designed to take the place of the actual filament bulb designed for a regulated automotive lighting function) are illegal. Didn't you read Post 42 in this thread?

 

[argleargle]

:huh2: What does that have to do with the discussion?

Upgraded light emitters in that format. An 1156 format socket was mentioned in post #1 of this thread. All of the discussion I've seen was using filament bulbs.

LED "drop-ins" in the 1156 format (or any other format wherein the LED "drop-in" is designed to take the place of the actual filament bulb designed for a regulated automotive lighting function) are illegal. Didn't you read Post 42 in this thread?

Well crap, maybe that's why. Checking, will edit once I've found it. Bear with me whilst I check and read that specific post.

Update: Since I was looking for mention of "1156 led" My eyes slid past Scheinwerfermann's mention that the P21W is 460 lumens. 12v only. I'm still hunting for a 6v solution. That sounds pretty awesome if it were available with that output in 6v. I'm now checking for laws. This is a discussion board and I wish to find facts now. I'll post laws, even if I'm wrong. I don't advocate illegal activity. Sorry for telling you about some led solution I know people are working on for automotive applications if this violates rules. I know people who claim to have gone through DOT approval for automotive lighting. Please stand by for another update.
---------------
Mr Schein, you stated a light source must be re-approved for any different lens in front of it. Can I have a link to that regulation please? I haven't found it yet. This sounds contrary to SAE J573d.
---------------
According to nhtsa.gov, DOT lighting regulation 571.108 does not apply for vehicles before "1-1-68 for vehicles 2,032 mrn (80 or more inches) in width and Effective 1-1-69 for all other vehicles)" Does this mean you can improve junky 6 candlepower bulbs on antiques legally?
---------------
DOT reg 571.108 S 5.1.1.16 references SAE Standard J573d, which actually states no candlepower requirement for a bulb, only filament placement WRT to reflector position. 571.108 S 5.1.1.16 states that "A lamp designed to use a type of bulb that has not been assigned a mean spherical candlepower rating by it's manufacturer and is not listed in SAE Standard J 573d, Lamb Bulbs and Sealed Units, December 1968, shall meet the applicable requirements of this standard when used with any bulb of the type specified by the lamp's manufacturer, operated at the bulb's design voltage. A lamp that contains a sealed-in bulb shall meet these requirements with the bulb operated at the bulb's design voltage."

Am I reading this correctly to mean that an led in the light housing is fine if and only if the throw pattern is correct, regardless of candlepower since SAE J573d lists no candlepower but filament to reflector positioning?

I eagerly await a polite and cogent response to my valid question.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Update 2: My one of my sources claims all his led lighting products are DOT approved on his website. Is he lying?

Considering the DOT does not "approve" anything, well... just think on that for a while.

 

[-Virgil-]

LED drop-in 1156-socket format is available in many colors

Yes, and they're illegal and unsafe. Rule 11 of this board prohibits advocating illegal or dangerous activity—please don't do it again, thank you.

 

[argleargle]

Yes, and they're illegal and unsafe. Rule 11 of this board prohibits advocating illegal or dangerous activity—please don't do it again, thank you.

Please reply to my updated post citing laws such that it might not always be illegal. I await your thoughts, sir. I'm not a lawbreaker, nor am I a willfull rules violator.

I pose that DOT 571-108 does not apply to antiques according to nhtsa.gov. If we're replacing something with 10x the brightness of a yellowy barely visible 6v bulb, how is this less safe? I have personally replaced tail light lens of an antique vehicle that originally shipped with a 18 watt yellow brake light. Yellow is obviously a problem, although from what I've read, DOT 571-108 doesn't apply to that vehicle. I'm talking about legal and safe activity. To be legal, are you saying that I must restore it to its factory yellow state?

Are there any other regulations I should read such that I can even ask questions here? Replies such as, "no it's illegal" are unhelpful, gentlemen.

Thanks everyone for your patience and helpfulness while I try to sort this out. I didn't realize I need to be a lawyer to even ask questions in this forum. Sorry about my newness here.

 

[dave_b]

Hey argleargle,

Couple of things to help out. On the automotive side of things, changing a light source is a no no, as you found by poking around the forum. Exterior lighting is regulated and needs to conform to certain requirements. These assemblies are designed to work around a certain light source. Changing the light source, ie from filament bulb to LED with filament bulb base totally nullifies the optics at work in that assembly. That is before you even bring the lens into play. Some examples of this, the previously mentioned 3497 is a legit upgrade over the 1156 because the filament shape, size and location that the optics see is the same for either bulb. Placing a rebased HID or LED bulb into a filament based lighting assembly is a no-no, however, because the optics see a completely different shaped and position of light source, and thus are no longer able to create a properly shamed beam as they were before. The second thing is, the DOT doesn't "approve" anything. They have their standards, and it is up to a supplier of products to self certify that their products meet these standards. So "DOT approved" is a red flag. "DOT compliant" make more sense, but in the case of a lot of overseas/el cheapo/fly-by-night/(insert adjective here describing cheap crap) suppliers, they will stick anything on the packaging to help them sell their junk, and unless a serious accident which brings a certain product into the line of fire, they usually get away with selling that kind of stuff for a while.

So, there are definitely legal and effective upgrades available for car exterior lighting, but not as many or as easy as the internet, sites like ebay and other forums would have you believe.

As far as how friendly this subsection is, as I noted previously, headlights (exterior car lighting in general, in fact) arent like flashlights. Changing a flashlight bulb "shouldn't" hurt anyone, and moding is kind of no holds barred, lets see what we can do! Headlights have to provide adequate illumination for the driver while not blinding others, while standing up to a pretty severe service condition. They have hundred of thousands of hours of engineering done by professionals to achieve this. This is why any modifications to a cars exterior lighting, which is a regulated safety system, must be approached cautiously and with thought. Sadly, many forum goers sign in here, ask our moderator, who is an industry expert, as well as a few other very knowledgeable experts for advice, and then have a tantrum when they are told that their HID's are illegal or whatever. Given the effects on safety that illegal mods can have and some peoples attitudes, this forum can be somewhat terse at times, but the advice given out is first rate and is always in the asker's best interest, if they are only willing to take it.

Cheers
Dave

 

[-Virgil-]

P21W is 460 lumens. 12v only.

6v P21W is also 460 lumens. So is 24v P21W.

That sounds pretty awesome if it were available with that output in 6v.

Good quality 6v P21W bulbs are readily available; see for example here.

one of my sources claims all his led lighting products are DOT approved on his website. Is he lying?

Yes. There's no such thing as "DOT approval".

According to an earlier post by Mr Schein, a light source must be re-approved for any different lens in front of it. Can I have a link to that regulation please?

I'm not sure what post you have in mind, but it is not the case that a light source must be "re-approved" (or recertified) for each different lens.

Found DOT 571.108

You probably mean 49CFR571.108; there is no such thing as "DOT 571.108".

Hope I got the right one.

That is one of numerous sets of regulations and technical standards that apply to vehicle lighting devices and light sources. It is a very dense document with a lot of language that does not mean what it looks (to a layman) like what it means. See this post for more info.

571.108 does not apply for vehicles before "1-1-68

That is true.

Does this mean you can improve junky 6 candlepower bulbs on antiques legally?

What you can and can't do legally is largely contingent on the registrar-level (state or provincial) regulations applicable to whatever type and year of vehicle you're working on. The answer to "what's legal?" is not always the same as "what's safe?" There are areas of non-overlap in both directions (safe but not legal, unsafe but legal), so it's unwise to put a whole bunch of effort into reading every law you can find and triumphantly shouting "Hah! The law doesn't say I can't!" before first evaluating the technical merits of whatever ideas you have in mind, with the help of knowledgeable experts.

One of the main things to keep in mind is that "improve" is a tough thing to define in this context -- much tougher than it might seem. If you tell us in some detail what kind of lights you have, on what kind of vehicle, it will get easier for us to help get you pointed in a productive direction.

Question: Is it just me or is this board less friendly than the others here?

This board deals with life safety equipment. There are real and serious consequences to life, limb, and property of unsound modifications to vehicle lights. These consequences don't exist when it's flashlights and such that are being modified and played with. Vehicle lights must work the way they are supposed to work -- as determined by objective measurements according to prescribed standards, not subjective impressions and "Yep, it looks nice 'n' bright to me!" types of opinions. There is a lot of unsafe junk readily available on the market, all of which is promoted as an "upgrade" from stock equipment -- most of it is not. We take a fairly hard-line approach to Rule 11 on this board for that matter, which, yes, means much less of an anything-goes philosophy here than in other areas of CPF. Please read this post for more detail.

 

[argleargle]

Thanks for your great reply, dave. I'll get to the next one next

On the automotive side of things, changing a light source is a no no, as you found by poking around the forum. Exterior lighting is regulated and needs to conform to certain requirements.

Yes. My question is the requirements. There's another thread I saw that looked shut down and nobody said why or what the requirements were.

These assemblies are designed to work around a certain light source. Changing the light source, ie from filament bulb to LED with filament bulb base totally nullifies the optics at work in that assembly. That is before you even bring the lens into play.

I'm with you there. However, I didn't see any lens guidance mentioned in SAE 573d, the reg for filament to reflector positioning. I'm now hunting for that.

Some examples of this, the previously mentioned 3497 is a legit upgrade over the 1156 because the filament shape, size and location that the optics see is the same for either bulb. Placing a rebased HID or LED bulb into a filament based lighting assembly is a no-no, however, because the optics see a completely different shaped and position of light source, and thus are no longer able to create a properly shamed beam as they were before.

I'm with you, I understand. However, I question why an optically correct package cannot be constructed? I understand some idiot cramming headlight bulbs in their taillights is illegal. My question is what do I read that tells me what the current light patterns are? I've worked on some deadly dangerously-lit old antiques with their factory lighting.

The second thing is, the DOT doesn't "approve" anything. They have their standards, and it is up to a supplier of products to self certify that their products meet these standards. So "DOT approved" is a red flag. "DOT compliant" make more sense, but in the case of a lot of overseas/el cheapo/fly-by-night/(insert adjective here describing cheap crap) suppliers, they will stick anything on the packaging to help them sell their junk, and unless a serious accident which brings a certain product into the line of fire, they usually get away with selling that kind of stuff for a while.

Okay, this bothers me. I was unaware of this kind of sham. However, maybe the guy meant it was okay in antiques and didn't know to use the correct phrasing? From what you say, I agree. This looks bad. This is a question, now... by the way, see above cited law and years applicable.

Headlights have to provide adequate illumination for the driver while not blinding others, while standing up to a pretty severe service condition. They have hundred of thousands of hours of engineering done by professionals to achieve this. This is why any modifications to a cars exterior lighting, which is a regulated safety system, must be approached cautiously and with thought.

I agree 100% and never said the 1156 was applicable for that.

Sadly, many forum goers sign in here, ask our moderator, who is an industry expert, as well as a few other very knowledgeable experts for advice, and then have a tantrum when they are told that their HID's are illegal or whatever.

*NOW* I understand. I walked in here and said "fighting words." Sorry about that. I can understand the terse responses now.

Given the effects on safety that illegal mods can have and some peoples attitudes, this forum can be somewhat terse at times, but the advice given out is first rate and is always in the asker's best interest, if they are only willing to take it.

A-holes with 8000k hidx4 intentionally all shining on oncoming traffic make me angrier than most people I know. Thanks, Dave. I now understand we see eye-to-eye on just about everything. We're cool.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

For what it's worth, I have been looking for upgrades to the 921 bulbs in our Corolla backup lights. I blew money on the Raybrig bulbs, which are not significantly brighter than the stock 921. I went ahead and looked at some of the LED replacements, curious as to what claims are out there and what buyers actually experienced. Even in forums where they think illegal conversions, drop-in blue HID crap and the like is oh so kewl... I found the occasional honest assessment that while the LED looked all spiffy and blue-white, the owner was not getting more light and generally couldn't see quite as well -- but people could see him and he looked cool.

One or two of the more honest suppliers of LED conversion bulbs for the 921 say flat out that they are not legal to replace the incandescent 921 automobile backup or signal lighting, but they are nice low-drain options for motorhome interior lights. Apparently, the 921 is fairly common as an interior light in RV's. Some of the LED conversions intended for this application look like a rectangular "card" with LED's on it and a wedge base at one end. They work fine as overhead lights in an RV, but wouldn't even fit into a typical backup light fixture. This would solve the common problem we see with both automotive LED bulbs and the indicators I'm seeing more and more at work: LED's tend to be directional; if you are in line with it, the darned thing is "too bright," but if you are very far off axis it's not bright enough. The flat "card" with all the LED's on one side would work great in a ceiling light.

If I run into an effective and legal improvement on the 921 bulbs, I'll certainly post here, but I've pretty well resigned myself to adding auxiliary backup lamps.

 

[-Virgil-]

I didn't see any lens guidance mentioned in SAE 573d, the reg for filament to reflector positioning.

SAE J573 contains specifications for miniature bulbs and some sealed beams -- not for replaceable-bulb lamps (back-up lights, stop lights, turn signals, etc.)

The design and performance requirements for back-up lights are in SAE J593. It's a frustrating nuisance that whoever wants to read the technical documents published by SAE must pay for them, but the latest rewrite of FMVSS 108 does contain the applicable design and construction requirements, or -- since the international reversing lamp spec is the same as the US spec -- you can freely download and get the specs from UN Regulation 23 (intensity requirements are in Section 6).

I question why an optically correct package cannot be constructed?

It can be, but it is nowhere near as simple to construct as it might seem, and without extensive and rather costly testing there is no way to know whether it is in fact optically (and otherwise) acceptable. That's on top of light source issues particular to LEDs, such as lumen maintenance and color stability with extended operation, covered in various other SAE standards.

maybe the guy [who said "DOT approved"] meant it was okay in antiques and didn't know to use the correct phrasing?

I doubt it. There are lots of vendors selling garbage and claiming it's "DOT approved". All these LED bulbs, HID kits, etc. come in by the boatload, mostly from countries with no serious safety regulations. US Customs seizes and destroys a vast amount of this stuff on a regular basis, but there is no way they can catch it all.

*NOW* I understand. I walked in here and said "fighting words." Sorry about that. I can understand the terse responses now.

Yup -- that's all. Nothing personal against you. Thanks for understanding.

 

[argleargle]

6v P21W is also 460 lumens. So is 24v P21W.
Good quality 6v P21W bulbs are readily available; see for example here.

HOLY CRAP! Thanks! The page doesn't say what base that is, but it fits 1157 base? Cool.

Yes. There's no such thing as "DOT approval".

I'm not mad at you guys. I'm just a bit disappointed in someone.

I'm not sure what post you have in mind, but it is not the case that a light source must be "re-approved" (or recertified) for each different lens.

Excellent! Then the removal of the hated dangerous yellow brake light lens would be legitamate even if that reg did apply.

You probably mean 49CFR571.108; there is no such thing as "DOT 571.108".

Heh. I'm not a lawyer, wasn't expecting to read laws tonight, and honestly wasn't prepared for it. I wasn't even sure I'd found the right one.

...and thanks for your take on that the reg doesn't apply to antiques. That's a big, fat sigh of relief on my part. I was really worried there.

it's unwise to put a whole bunch of effort into reading every law you can find and triumphantly shouting "Hah! The law doesn't say I can't!" before first evaluating the technical merits of whatever ideas you have in mind, with the help of knowledgeable experts.

Yes, I was looking for the second part, not the first. Sorry if anyone thought I implied "HAH! No law against it!" Far, far, from it. I know people who have been squashed on antiques with factory-unsafe lighting. Knowledgable experts help. One friend of mine was rear-ended because of a yellow tail light that was "grandfather-claused-in" by his state. Factory original.

One of the main things to keep in mind is that "improve" is a tough thing to define in this context -- much tougher than it might seem. If you tell us in some detail what kind of lights you have, on what kind of vehicle, it will get easier for us to help get you pointed in a productive direction.

To avoid confusion I will now reference only one rear light with a yellow brake. The Eber tail-light housing as used by BMW in the early '50s. The brake running-light is oft used as a backup light... well.. old guys rolling backwards into a garage or what-have-you, since it HAS no backup light. Anything at all would be an improvement over having nothing whatsoever.

The usual treatment is to upgrade to the late 50's Hella "coffee-can" housing, but it's still an anemic 6v and doesn't look the same in the slightest. This is a very complicated problem. The eber brake light window is about the size of a postage stamp. Above it is a round red bicycle-looking reflector. Seriously. I think the original equipment is dangerous. Some guys insist on riding the original setup. I came here (to this branch of the forum) trying to find something to help a stubborn 6 volt original-friend. Once I do some more reading, perhaps there may be options.

Anyway, it'd probably need it's own thread and I've got nothing to post yet!

There is a lot of unsafe junk readily available on the market, all of which is promoted as an "upgrade" from stock equipment -- most of it is not. We take a fairly hard-line approach to Rule 11 on this board for that matter, which, yes, means much less of an anything-goes philosophy here than in other areas of CPF. Please read this post for more detail.

I understand, hopefully I'm not stupid (I hope) and am looking for stuff to read and think about... trying to find some solution. I don't see one yet.

...and thanks for that regulation to read. I'm reading it now.

 

[argleargle]

HAH! The links are funny now.

 

[-Virgil-]

HOLY CRAP! Thanks! The page doesn't say what base that is, but it fits 1157 base?

No, it fits 1156 base (BA15s). If you need an 1157, dual-filament type of bulb, the one you need is P21/5W (which is on BAY15d base, same as 1157).

As for the yellow brake light: Yes, some old European vehicles and motorcycles had yellow stop/tail lenses. And some US laws explicitly permit this -- California's vehicle code, for example, says that vehicles made before a certain date in 1979 may have yellow rather than red stop/tail lamps. This is dumb; by 1979 Federal standards had required red for those functions for more than a decade, and Federal standards trump non-identical state standards. You are quite correct that even if it's legal (or not prohibited because of the vehicle's age), it's highly unwise to use yellow stop lights in traffic. When the stop light comes on, the message must be immediate and unambiguous. Yellow tail light would likewise by very foolish to use in traffic; most vehicles in the US have yellow parking lights, so a yellow rear running light would cause severe confusion as to such a vehicle's position and direction of travel. If originality is a concern, the owner can visit a theatrical supply house, obtain a very inexpensive piece of "Roscolux" material in a good red color, cut it to size with scissors, and use a few dabs of glue to secure this red filter to the inside of the yellow lens.

 

[argleargle]

If originality is a concern, the owner can visit a theatrical supply house, obtain a very inexpensive piece of "Roscolux" material in a good red color, cut it to size with scissors, and use a few dabs of glue to secure this red filter to the inside of the yellow lens.

Good idea, beats shaping plastic into an hour-glass shape with a heat gun. Thanks.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Just FYI: Washington is another state that permits brake lights, not just signals, to be red or yellow. They've got another odd thing, and I've seen it on a bus: You can have a system on the rear that displays a green light when the accelerator is depressed, yellow with simply rolling, neither accelerating nor decelerating, and red when decelerating. It looks like an inverted traffic signal. The green light when accelerating seems odd, since green is also used in this state to identify volunteer firefighters.

I'll have to check on that Roscolux stuff, just in case. I do usually keep a bit of the red "tail light repair" tape around in case of a cracked lens. I don't know about its light transmission, but at least it keeps a damaged lens all red until you can replace it.