Weapon light discussion, (loosely) related topics welcome

[alpg88]

it is the one you shot best with. thou it is also not so clear, the same person can shoot same caliber , load differently from 2 different guns,

 

[orbital]

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Interested in ballistics & energy, look at the energy at distance for these,
personally own a fair amount of this exact ammo:

7,62 × 25 TOKAREV – FMJ (V310112) – 85 GRS – Sellier & Bellot

www.sellier-bellot.cz

also have jhp reload bullets from Hornady for that brass.

 

[SCEMan]

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Interested in ballistics & energy, look at the energy at distance for these,
personally own a fair amount of this exact ammo:

7,62 × 25 TOKAREV – FMJ (V310112) – 85 GRS – Sellier & Bellot

www.sellier-bellot.cz

also have jhp reload bullets from Hornady for that brass.

Similar ballistics to the .30 Carbine round from a pistol...

 

[Hondo]

Sorry, but there's no such thing as natural ability when you're shooting a handgun. For human-beings, it's an unnatural act. And, with 18% of the world's population being cross-dominant, shooting with one eye open solves that issue. Main thing when it comes to defensive shooting is focusing on that front-sight. The rear sights are supposed to be blurry. And for those times when aiming would take too long because an attacker is up close & personal, yes; go ahead and keep both eyes open while using Point Shooting to end the encounter.

HUGE difference between sport shooting and defensive shooting. I've trained with guys who are definitely NOT world champions. That title doesn't exist when it comes to using firearms for self-defense. In fact, if you go to any instructor who claims to be a World Champion at self-defense shooting or insists that cross-dominant students use tape over one eye to keep both eyes open.... Demand your money back! That is simply someone who thinks they know what they are talking about. One of the worst backgrounds you can have in a self-defense shooting instructor, is that of a Sports Shooting World Champion who thinks he knows what he's talking about, simply because he has earned awards with his pistol.

Often times so heavily modified for competition use that it looks nothing like a bog-standard, off the shelf pistol. Best way I can describe it.... If you had severe engine issues with your car, would you take it to a mechanic who only exclusively ever works on transmissions? Would you let THAT type of mechanic work on your engine? Even if he confidently said he knows what he's doing? Even if he showed you a bunch of certificates he earned? All of which were for working on transmissions. Would you let that guy work on your engine? Obviously, no!

Your wife is the exception to the rule. Those exist.

Thank you for proving my point! Time or accuracy penalty??
Those don't exist in the real world! Accuracy is simply center of mass. Aim for the torso. Anywhere you hit is the 10-ring. Time.... That works differently in the real world. T.=D.=T. (Basic formula. You need time in order to acquire distance, so that you have time to draw and fire your defensive handgun!)

I distinctly remember watching an older video of a police officer who was being punched repeatedly in the back of the head. This idiot kept trying to reach for his duty pistol. Each time he did, he got punched! Instead of pivoting his body, hitting his attacker in the side of the head with an elbow in order to gain enough Time to backpedal and thus put a bit of distance between them, so that he'd have Time to draw his weapon; nope! He just kept reaching for it, like an idiot. Thankfully the idiot was saved by a good Samaritan. Good thing too.... because there was a large metal gate that was slowly closing, and would have trapped the idiot officer with his attacker who clearly would have beaten him to death. (And with the idiot still been trying to reach for his pistol.)

Again, HUGE difference between training to be a World Champion vs. training to survive against someone trying to take your Life. With the former, they give you a trophy. With the latter, you get to keep your Life.

Not a benefit if you've trained for defensive shooting. Again, center of mass (torso) only level of accuracy that matters.

Close one eye.
You're not supposed to see all three dots clearly. You focus on that front sight. The rear will naturally become blurry. That's what's supposed to happen. That's what I teach my students. I've mentioned before on CPF that I sometimes volunteer as an instructor at a certain school. And, I don't teach competitive shooting.

Not picking on you at all Monocrom, I agree with almost everything you have said here and just want to share my thoughts on a few things, and you mention them all in this post.

[TLDR version: Shoot the most realistic types of training available to you. Use both eyes only if it works well for you.]

My main message is training types. Yes, playing shooting games (competing in some sort of action shooting league/event) is not the ideal way to train for real world self defense shooting scenarios. BUT, they are better than standing in a booth at the local range shooting black circles at a fixed distance (be honest, how many people do mostly or only that?). I often recommend people get involved in IPSC-type events. The two main advantages are that you (hopefully) are never shooting the same course twice. And while you are moving, reloading and engaging targets at different ranges and situations you are "on the clock" so you have mental pressure the whole time. No, not the kind of mental pressure of being on a bi-directional shooting range, I'll pass on that until I have no choice, but enough to find out way more issues with you or your equipment than you would at a normal range session. I've experienced many of those learnings, and seen many others do so as well - can't overstate the value of learning from other's mistakes.

Story time: A police department (can't remember which) had an officer training course that consisted of rotating "combat" targets, which when they spun to face the officer, he was to draw his service weapon and fire two shots to center of mass before it turned away and then re-holster his weapon. Over and over. Our officer in this story was confronted by a very bad guy, and did what he trained to do, only with his weapon back in it's holster, he found out the hard way that his two shots had not incapacitated the attacker, and he was shot and killed. That department never used that training scenario again.

If you have access to training that is tailored specifically to survival and not winning trophies in competition, by all means take advantage of it if you can. But if the next best thing you can do to a "range session" is competitive action shooting sports, you will be vastly better off taking advantage of that rather than not.

I also can't leave out the fact that in all competitions I have been in, I have experienced the most disciplined shooters and safest conditions imaginable. You will learn how to handle weapons safely, or you will be asked to leave, perhaps permanently. EVERYONE will tell you to focus on safe handling, and going fast will come later. The value of this applies to any and all types of shooting and preparing for real world situations.

As far as both eyes open, if you can shoot naturally and well that way, it's my opinion you should. If you get lost finding your sights in the correct eye (can be tough when your dominant eye is not strongly dominant), close the opposite eye. But be aware that you are putting strain on the open eye, and giving up a good deal of peripheral vision on the off-side. That's all I've got to say about that.

Last, as far as natural ability goes, some folks will just never be as good as others, even if they practice many times more. I was lucky, I learned real fast, and like riding a bike there is little difference in my ability to hit what I'm shooting at when I've not practiced for a long while. That would not apply to still being able to run good times on an action pistol course, though.

 

[kerneldrop]

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Interested in ballistics & energy, look at the energy at distance for these,
personally own a fair amount of this exact ammo:

I remember when you could get the import war pistols for 7.62 for like $200 off gunbroker. I wanted one.

Just like the beloved 357 Sig…the bottleneck just feeds ultra reliably.

 

[kerneldrop]

My background is in exterior ballistics.
I talk ballistics and do something in the competitive shooting realm every day.
My mind doesn't go to shooting for life situations when discussing firearms or training.
Other than bullseye and silhouette, every handgun competition is literally defensive based.
I don't know a better way to train for survival situations than to enter into those competitions.
But I suppose it doesn't matter if there's a better way because I don't train for those encounters and won't start.

Who has shot at a Texas Star?
They are always fun.
Those, plate racks and dueling trees never get old.
The Texas Star will humble you.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

I miss Shotgun News.

 

[SimulatedZero]

I remember when you could get the import war pistols for 7.62 for like $200 off gunbroker. I wanted one.

Just like the beloved 357 Sig…the bottleneck just feeds ultra reliably.

It's a shame 357 sig didn't become more popular. I really liked the round on paper. Never got to shoot it, though. I still get some customers carrying it for their CCW, but that's few and far between.

 

[kerneldrop]

It's a shame 357 sig didn't become more popular.

As you know from being in the industry, sadly, gun writers, marketing and money drive that popularity train. A .40 case necked down to a 9mm bullet should be cheap to manufacture since it's two common components in Merica.

The really cool part is — at least with Glock and Sig — is going from .40 to .357 Sig is just a barrel change. Sure some change the ejector on Glock but it's not needed.

It's fun to hit steel with that 357 Sig because you feel the blast and hear that ping from that fast bullet. It's a pop.

270 WSM is another one that never took off but on paper is amazing.

 

[alpg88]

old habits die hard, 9mm and .45 have been around for almost 100 years.

i wonder what happens if you neck down .45 to 40.. you'll probably get 10mm

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

If I was wealthy enough, I'd carry a .357 SIG. Cost of ammo was what convinced me to pass it up for the 9mmP. That, plus the fact that some 9mmP have ballistics near as fast as .357 SIG. I just couldn't justify the extra expense. I imagine that is why it isn't as popular as it really warrants being. Pity.

 

[kerneldrop]

i wonder what happens if you neck down .45 to 40.. you'll probably get 10mm

You get a .400 cor-bon or .40 Super, or yea a mid 10mm.

45acp case is around 25gr of water, give or take. 10mm case is around 24gr of water, give or take.

A lot of these pistol Wildcat cartridges are built around a gun, rather than built purely for performance.

Also, a lot of handgun cartridges are "built to match x-revolver cartridge in a semi-auto platform."
But most often the new semi-auto cartridge only matches the revolver cartridge on the lower end of speed.
Take the beloved 357 Sig for example... gun writers and publications will tell you it matches the 357 Magnum.
It does until the 357 Magnum wants to go fast then it easily leaves the 357 Sig behind by a considerable margin.

 

[Monocrom]

Not picking on you at all Monocrom, I agree with almost everything you have said here and just want to share my thoughts on a few things, and you mention them all in this post.

[TLDR version: Shoot the most realistic types of training available to you. Use both eyes only if it works well for you.]

It's unfortunate that many police departments still use formulaic training methods. I can do one even worse. Officers in one department trained to take away a handgun from an armed suspect. Training consisted of application of the technique. Followed immediately by the officer handing back the unloaded handgun to the Range Officer. Well, one day, an officer applied the technique. It worked! Problem was, he then immediately handed the weapon back to the suspect who then shot him. Thankfully in that case, the officer lived. Only through dumb luck. I never forgot that true tale, and always keep it in mind when teaching at that school I sometimes volunteer at.

Also, it's an actual school. Not just a shooting range. One of the biggest challenges is helping students who were exposed to competitive shooting sports, unlearn certain behaviors. I distinctly recall one student who was told a Spree Shooter was on a crowded public street. He was told to find cover, draw his weapon and return fire if he could safely do so. The issue.... Although he found excellent cover (using an SUV and its engine block to shield himself), he then broke cover trying to get behind a tree that offered considerably less protection. When asked why he did that, he responded that he was trying to get closer for a better shot.

I knew what he was doing. He was moving to the next "station." I then took him aside and politely corrected him. When you're behind excellent cover and are able to return fire, you don't willingly expose yourself. It took awhile for that to sink in.... thanks to his previous Shooting Sports experience. Honestly, out of approximately 4,200 students I've taught over the years, we barely had a handful who could shoot properly in a defensive scenario with both eyes open. As far as eye-strain, if a self-defense encounter lasts longer than several seconds; the Defender is likely not going to survive. Eye-strain doesn't even factor into it. As far as field of view being limited, once you've identified the threat and you're engaging the threat, your field of view should be very much limited on that threat. That's not the time to take your eyes off of the threat. I teach students to always be in Condition Yellow when out and about. Always scanning for potential threats. But once the threat is there, close one eye, concentrate on that front sight, and engage the threat.

Another issue? I teach students to expose their bodies as little as possible when behind cover. Same scenario with the SUV above. I've had students expose their entire head over the top of the vehicle because they wanted to shoot with both eyes open. I teach non-cross dominant students to shoot from the side of the hood. With one eye closed, they only expose half their head. Reducing their chances of getting shot in the head by 50%. (Cross-dominant students are taught to shoot with their non-dominant hand, as one aspect of their training.)

I'm sorry, but I can't agree that participation in Shooting Sports is better than no training at all. It's not like it was decades ago. You don't have to set aside several days of vacation time, fly to Arizona, book months in advance to participate over at Gunsite Ranch, when Jeff Cooper was running it. Pay for your round trip ticket and hotel stay. Thunder Ranch made things a bit easier when it came into existence. But, point is; reputable schools were few and far between. That's just not the case anymore. Those who are serious when it comes to learning defensive use of various types of firearms, no longer have to settle for local Shooting Sports competitions to at least learn something. It's just not the case anymore.

Serious students can find schools that deal specifically with self-defense. I could go on with more examples of having to spend extra time teaching students to unlearn behavior they picked up while participating in Shooting Sports competitions. Then being surprised that what they learned actually put them at a disadvantage to those students who never participated in competitions at all. Though, just one more. Had a student once show up with his 1911 Race Gun. And, he had a very hard time understanding why he couldn't use it during the training session. Thankfully one of the other instructors still used a lightly modified Springfield Armoury 1911 that he was willing to lend to the student.

The ones who are a blank slate and willing to learn, are just easier to teach than the ones with a Shooting Sports background. Precisely because we don't have to set aside extra time (usually a significant amount) to help them unlearn habits that don't benefit them in a self-defense scenario. And, like that officer who handed the gun back to the suspect after taking it away from him, habits that are actually detrimental to them in surviving a violent encounter. I don't consider dumb luck to be a reliable skill to count on.

Edit: Typo.

 

[Monocrom]

I've heard of Cloud Defensive, but not the drama. Spill the tea for me if you don't mind. I'm curious ☕️

This was a personal thing. Ordered one of their proprietary mounts a few years back. No issue. Ordered from them again a few weeks later. They sent the wrong mount. (Previous order was for a certain Streamlight model. 2nd order was for a certain SureFire model. They had two very different mounts when it came to the SureFire. They sent the wrong one.)

Took a Herculean effort to get them to do the right thing. I sent back the wrong mount (at my expense). Waited for the new one to arrive. They literally sent me an empty box! Not joking! Grabbed the phone, immediately called up my Credit Card company. Explained what took place. Did a credit card charge-back for the full amount. Obviously never ordered anything from them ever again! Never even heard from them afterwards. So, Buyer Very Much Beware when it comes to Cloud Defense.

 

[alpg88]

You get a .400 cor-bon or .40 Super, or yea a mid 10mm.

45acp case is around 25gr of water, give or take. 10mm case is around 24gr of water, give or take.

A lot of these pistol Wildcat cartridges are built around a gun, rather than built purely for performance.

Also, a lot of handgun cartridges are "built to match x-revolver cartridge in a semi-auto platform."
But most often the new semi-auto cartridge only matches the revolver cartridge on the lower end of speed.
Take the beloved 357 Sig for example... gun writers and publications will tell you it matches the 357 Magnum.
It does until the 357 Magnum wants to go fast then it easily leaves the 357 Sig behind by a considerable margin.

When does it become pointless to up load the cartridge, will you get much benefits from hot loaded .357 if you shooting it from a 2-3 inch barrel?

 

[kerneldrop]

When does it become pointless to up load the cartridge, will you get much benefits from hot loaded .357 if you shooting it from a 2-3 inch barrel?

Hotter loads still start out faster.
The benefits of velocity are argued until the end of day in terminal ballistics.
Here is what cannot be disputed.... there is a line and one end you have ineffective performance and on the other end you have absolute effectiveness. Velocity and mass at some point on that line do matter. Is a 100-250fps a difference maker? The closest thing we can do is to shoot into ballistic gel and look at the damage caused.

I use Quickload to simulate barrel lengths, but when shooting you see that every barrel and every component combination behaves differently than a "general rule of thumb." For example, sometimes velocity will be higher from a 3" barrel than a 4" barrel, when all other things are equal.

This website is neat...it's his findings alone and other folks may have different outcomes:

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .357 Mag Results

(statement of intent)

www.ballisticsbytheinch.com

 

[orbital]

I remember when you could get the import war pistols for 7.62 for like $200 off gunbroker. I wanted one.

Just like the beloved 357 Sig…the bottleneck just feeds ultra reliably.

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If you find one, even newer one, these grips are a must.
they fundamentally transform the pistol. I have the G02 grips on a modern M57 ~ 9+1 capacity

you can get these off ebay also

Razor Arms

Modern grips for Tokarev type of guns

razorarms.com

 

[orbital]

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Dig the talk on the 357sig & all necked down parent case stuff.

 

[KITROBASKIN]

Glad to see Hondo is ok with the side discussion on this thread.

That best handgun caliber video looked to be prepper focused. The closing information was addressing the scenario of adversaries wearing common body armor (none of the standard handgun rounds will defeat). Final image on that video showed a revolver that supposedly can.

Forgive me for not following current discussions regarding cartridge effectiveness, but wanted to ask if sectional density is still a thing, as it relates to penetration.

And bullet design that addresses complication of passing through other materials first.

 

[orbital]

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Arguably pointless for pistols, you can get an LEP weaponlight for a rifle.

Not having any spill, really limits usability ----- couple hundred yards lighting is somewhat interesting from a small light