The_Driver
Flashlight Enthusiast
Any updates?
What short arc for maxabeam-like searchlight?
- Thread starter Enderman
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Enderman
Enlightened
Nope, I have a bunch of other projects going on so I probably won't be building this for a while due to time/budget constraints.
Here is some of my research info if anyone else wants to build it themselves:
The HBO103 is the highest intensity lamp I have found thus far and I don't think there's anything better, so that part is pretty much confirmed.
It is a mercury lamp, so unlike the xeon in a maxabeam it will have two hotspots instead of one.
This means that the beam will have slightly higher divergence since if you focus the reflector at one hotspot then the other is out of focus, but each hotspot still has higher intensity than the maxabeam bulb, and it outputs more lumens too.
There are several brands that make/sell a ballast that can run this lamp, commonly called the HBX76, they cost about $400-500 USD.
Aliexpress had one for $250 USD a while ago but that one got sold. maybe it will come back in the future.
The easiest way to power these ballasts is to get a 12 (or 24) vdc to 120/240v ac inverter.
The inverter should be able to do at least 150W continuous for the ballast, the more the better (but also gets larger)
Pure sine wave inverters are prefered but the ballast will probably work fine without pure sine wave.
Reflector should be a rhodium electroformed reflector from Optiforms or Phoenix Electroforms (phoenix is cheaper)
For best light efficiency, the reflector should capture 55 degrees towards one end of the bulb and 45 degrees towards other end of the bulb (where the metal shield is)
The Maxabeam is a 5" reflector, but bigger is better, I personally would go with a 6-12" one.
A front lens should be used for protecting the reflector from the elements as well as blocking high intensity UV light to prevent eye damage.
Borosilicate is a good option that is resistant to high heat and block all UV.
The ballast and inverter will get hot, so a fan is required for good cooling inside the flashlight enclosure, however high airflow directly on the lamp isn't great so try to avoid that.
Hopefully this helps anyone trying to build a super long range handheld searchlight
Here is some of my research info if anyone else wants to build it themselves:
The HBO103 is the highest intensity lamp I have found thus far and I don't think there's anything better, so that part is pretty much confirmed.
It is a mercury lamp, so unlike the xeon in a maxabeam it will have two hotspots instead of one.
This means that the beam will have slightly higher divergence since if you focus the reflector at one hotspot then the other is out of focus, but each hotspot still has higher intensity than the maxabeam bulb, and it outputs more lumens too.
There are several brands that make/sell a ballast that can run this lamp, commonly called the HBX76, they cost about $400-500 USD.
Aliexpress had one for $250 USD a while ago but that one got sold. maybe it will come back in the future.
The easiest way to power these ballasts is to get a 12 (or 24) vdc to 120/240v ac inverter.
The inverter should be able to do at least 150W continuous for the ballast, the more the better (but also gets larger)
Pure sine wave inverters are prefered but the ballast will probably work fine without pure sine wave.
Reflector should be a rhodium electroformed reflector from Optiforms or Phoenix Electroforms (phoenix is cheaper)
For best light efficiency, the reflector should capture 55 degrees towards one end of the bulb and 45 degrees towards other end of the bulb (where the metal shield is)
The Maxabeam is a 5" reflector, but bigger is better, I personally would go with a 6-12" one.
A front lens should be used for protecting the reflector from the elements as well as blocking high intensity UV light to prevent eye damage.
Borosilicate is a good option that is resistant to high heat and block all UV.
The ballast and inverter will get hot, so a fan is required for good cooling inside the flashlight enclosure, however high airflow directly on the lamp isn't great so try to avoid that.
Hopefully this helps anyone trying to build a super long range handheld searchlight
The_Driver
Flashlight Enthusiast
Have you seen this? It's a list of known luminance values of many different light sources (unfortunately for some HID bulbs only the average Ø of the entire arc is known).
The HBO 103 W/2 actually has an average luminance of 1700cd/mm^2. So the maximum luminance is actually even higher. They achieved this by making the arc really short (0,25mm). Unfortunately it only produces 3000 lumens. It's much more efficient than Xenon short-arcs, but still not very efficient.
I would consider using UHP projector bulbs. They are more efficient and are much smaller. The Osram P-VIP 250W has a supposed luminance of 2000cd/mm^2 and produces around 20.000 lumens. Also, because of the higher pressure, the light spectrum is more even.
Of course the projector bulbs require more work and it's more dangerous (one has to remove the bulb from the glass reflector and cement it into a new custom mount).
EDIT:
I just found an interesting post from Ra:
The HBO 103 W/2 actually has an average luminance of 1700cd/mm^2. So the maximum luminance is actually even higher. They achieved this by making the arc really short (0,25mm). Unfortunately it only produces 3000 lumens. It's much more efficient than Xenon short-arcs, but still not very efficient.
I would consider using UHP projector bulbs. They are more efficient and are much smaller. The Osram P-VIP 250W has a supposed luminance of 2000cd/mm^2 and produces around 20.000 lumens. Also, because of the higher pressure, the light spectrum is more even.
Of course the projector bulbs require more work and it's more dangerous (one has to remove the bulb from the glass reflector and cement it into a new custom mount).
EDIT:
I just found an interesting post from Ra:
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Enderman
Enlightened
Do you have a source for that 2000cd/mm^2?
All I've found on the internet indicates that UHP lamps have approx 1mm gap or more, and less intensity than a HBO103.
I would be glad to be proven wrong
According to the spec sheet the HBO103 is 1500cd/mm^2 initial http://downloadable.topbulb.com/media//downloadable/Sylvania-69182.pdf
But it says that it takes approx 5 mins to warm up so in that case it will probably be 2000cd/mm^2 or even more.
And yeah I'm aware of the dangers of mercury lamps, but a borofloat lens blocks almost 100% of all UV. Also ozone isn't that dangerous.
All I've found on the internet indicates that UHP lamps have approx 1mm gap or more, and less intensity than a HBO103.
I would be glad to be proven wrong
According to the spec sheet the HBO103 is 1500cd/mm^2 initial http://downloadable.topbulb.com/media//downloadable/Sylvania-69182.pdf
But it says that it takes approx 5 mins to warm up so in that case it will probably be 2000cd/mm^2 or even more.
And yeah I'm aware of the dangers of mercury lamps, but a borofloat lens blocks almost 100% of all UV. Also ozone isn't that dangerous.
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Enderman
Enlightened
Ok found some more info, looks like this is where you got the 2000cd/mm^2 info from:
http://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/threads/leuchtdichten.23324/
German forum again.
The highest is some prototype UHP bulb with a 0.3mm arc gap, unfortunately I could not find any of these on the internet
If anyone knows where to find one of these plz let me know.
Second highest is a 2000W XBO which is too much wattage to run in a flashlight.
Third is the XBO 500W/RC OFR which has a TON of intensity compared to the other XBO lamps.
Datasheet: http://www.prisma-scene.com/Ampoules/Osram/XENON-SHORT-ARC.pdf
With my battery system, I would be able to run this for about <30 mins.
Fourth is the 250W UHP lamp, but it says "Source?" beside it so idk how accurate that number is.
I found this datasheet which doesn't show the intensity, but you can see there is a 330W lamp with a 1mm arc gap, I would assume it has more intensity than the 250W 1mm gap one.
https://assets.osram-americas.com/assets/Documents/1R3S001GB.6d4bf38a-48d9-4e40-b910-87712d06d229.pdf
http://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/threads/leuchtdichten.23324/
German forum again.
The highest is some prototype UHP bulb with a 0.3mm arc gap, unfortunately I could not find any of these on the internet
If anyone knows where to find one of these plz let me know.
Second highest is a 2000W XBO which is too much wattage to run in a flashlight.
Third is the XBO 500W/RC OFR which has a TON of intensity compared to the other XBO lamps.
Datasheet: http://www.prisma-scene.com/Ampoules/Osram/XENON-SHORT-ARC.pdf
With my battery system, I would be able to run this for about <30 mins.
Fourth is the 250W UHP lamp, but it says "Source?" beside it so idk how accurate that number is.
I found this datasheet which doesn't show the intensity, but you can see there is a 330W lamp with a 1mm arc gap, I would assume it has more intensity than the 250W 1mm gap one.
https://assets.osram-americas.com/assets/Documents/1R3S001GB.6d4bf38a-48d9-4e40-b910-87712d06d229.pdf
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The_Driver
Flashlight Enthusiast
Unfortunately the Osram XBO 500W/RC OFR is not produced anymore (get_lit wanted to use it for his super spotlight). You might find some remaining stock at some film equipment shop. 500W is a lot of power though for a compact portable light. It would require a very large battery and still have a short runtime.
Please take a look at this: http://jahonen.kapsi.fi/Electronics/Stuff/UHP_Lamp.pdf
It is the most comprehensive, known (to us) information source on UHP bulbs.
See page 10 for more details on luminance. On the right side there is a graph showing different values for different electrode gap lengths. There are multiple data points for the 1mm gap length. sma guessed that the stronger 250W bulbs are the higher 2000 cd/mm^2 data point.
A significant benefit of the UHP lamps is that they often have very compact ballasts because the projector manufacturers want to make projectors as small as possible. One problem though is that the ballasts often require a very high input voltage (300V DC).
See smas light here for some details (he "only" used a 120W bulb).
PolarLi built a much more powerful light with a 350W bulb.
EDIT:
I have the "proof" for you.
I calculated the luminance of PolarLis light.
For this I used the following data:
Reflector size:
large opening diameter: 200mm (area: 31416mm^2)
small opening diameter: ~40mm (area: 1257mm^2)
useable area: 30159mm^2
Reflector reflectance: 90% (AQ)
lens transmission: 92% (uncoated borosilicate glass)
luminous intensity: 55.3Mcd
luminous intensity[cd] = reflector_area[mm^2] * luminance [cd/mm^2] * lens_transmission [%] * reflector_coating_reflectivity [%]
=> luminance [cd/mm^2] = luminous intensity[cd] / ( reflector_area[mm^2] * lens_transmission [%] * reflector_coating_reflectivity [%] )
luminance = 2215 cd/mm^2
Of course this only shows what a 350W bulb can do. A 250W might be worse, but I don't think by a lot. I think the power density is the most important think and a 250W 1.0 bulb has double the p. density of 120W one.
Please take a look at this: http://jahonen.kapsi.fi/Electronics/Stuff/UHP_Lamp.pdf
It is the most comprehensive, known (to us) information source on UHP bulbs.
See page 10 for more details on luminance. On the right side there is a graph showing different values for different electrode gap lengths. There are multiple data points for the 1mm gap length. sma guessed that the stronger 250W bulbs are the higher 2000 cd/mm^2 data point.
A significant benefit of the UHP lamps is that they often have very compact ballasts because the projector manufacturers want to make projectors as small as possible. One problem though is that the ballasts often require a very high input voltage (300V DC).
See smas light here for some details (he "only" used a 120W bulb).
PolarLi built a much more powerful light with a 350W bulb.
EDIT:
I have the "proof" for you
.I calculated the luminance of PolarLis light.
For this I used the following data:
Reflector size:
large opening diameter: 200mm (area: 31416mm^2)
small opening diameter: ~40mm (area: 1257mm^2)
useable area: 30159mm^2
Reflector reflectance: 90% (AQ)
lens transmission: 92% (uncoated borosilicate glass)
luminous intensity: 55.3Mcd
luminous intensity[cd] = reflector_area[mm^2] * luminance [cd/mm^2] * lens_transmission [%] * reflector_coating_reflectivity [%]
=> luminance [cd/mm^2] = luminous intensity[cd] / ( reflector_area[mm^2] * lens_transmission [%] * reflector_coating_reflectivity [%] )
luminance = 2215 cd/mm^2
Of course this only shows what a 350W bulb can do. A 250W might be worse, but I don't think by a lot. I think the power density is the most important think and a 250W 1.0 bulb has double the p. density of 120W one.
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Enderman
Enlightened
Thanks for the info
It does seem that UHP lamps are a better choice, not only can they be operated in any position (HBO can only be vertical to horizontal) but they are also more efficient with higher lumen output, although at the expense of a beam with more divergence.
-------------------------------------------------
If anyone is interested in the 500W RC bulb, this guy on this forum might still have his for sale (very cheap for $120) although he posted almost 10 years ago so who knows if he still has it...
http://4hv.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?75287.post
There are images of it too, it's smaller than I expected.
Also here is a french store (which looks pretty legit), they have some in stock: http://www.eurosep.com/article.aspx?ref=WEM1MDBSQ09T
And a russian one: http://electropara.ru/catalog/lampy...sram-xbo/9102/?utm_source=blizkoru_id12561227
This lamp is probably better for a plug-in setup than portable setup.
-------------------------------------------------
Do you know if the P-VIP lamps are higher intensity than the HRI lamps used in moving heads like this one?
http://www.claypaky.it/en/products/sharpy#details
It does like 25Mcd with a 0 degree beam, using a small lamp that looks just like the P-VIP ones.
I tried figuring out what kind of optics system it uses, but there isn't any info on what kind of lenses they are.
It's some custom 3 lens system that collimates the light very well from the elliptical reflector of the lamp.
It does seem that UHP lamps are a better choice, not only can they be operated in any position (HBO can only be vertical to horizontal) but they are also more efficient with higher lumen output, although at the expense of a beam with more divergence.
-------------------------------------------------
If anyone is interested in the 500W RC bulb, this guy on this forum might still have his for sale (very cheap for $120) although he posted almost 10 years ago so who knows if he still has it...
http://4hv.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?75287.post
There are images of it too, it's smaller than I expected.
Also here is a french store (which looks pretty legit), they have some in stock: http://www.eurosep.com/article.aspx?ref=WEM1MDBSQ09T
And a russian one: http://electropara.ru/catalog/lampy...sram-xbo/9102/?utm_source=blizkoru_id12561227
This lamp is probably better for a plug-in setup than portable setup.
-------------------------------------------------
Do you know if the P-VIP lamps are higher intensity than the HRI lamps used in moving heads like this one?
http://www.claypaky.it/en/products/sharpy#details
It does like 25Mcd with a 0 degree beam, using a small lamp that looks just like the P-VIP ones.
I tried figuring out what kind of optics system it uses, but there isn't any info on what kind of lenses they are.
It's some custom 3 lens system that collimates the light very well from the elliptical reflector of the lamp.
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The_Driver
Flashlight Enthusiast
I think the Osram P-VIP (and Philips UHP) lamps are either the same or better than the HRI Sirius (and Philips MSR Platinum) lamps. These other ones are newer technology, but I did not find a single technical data point which suggests that they are better. They seem to be based on the UHP technology and have have very similar dimensions and wattages though.
The UHP lamps are proven technology and are easy to get for a low price (used projectors on eBay), but somewhat finicky to get up and running. I currently don't see the benefit of these new bulbs.
Here is a thread on them: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Sirius-HRI-or-MSD-platinum-lamps-(short-arc)
The moving head you linked to does indeed seem to have a very high candela rating. If you compare it with others you will probably also notice that it has a lens with an unusually large diameter. That would explain the high value, if competing models have maybe a third of a fourth of the candela.
Edit:
With an approximated lens diameter of 15cm and their candela rating I get a luminance value of around 1400cd/mm^2 with just the losses of the main lens. Because of all the additional losses in the optical system (such lights are rather inefficient) it is probably closer to 2000. This would mean that these new lamps have basically the same performance as the UHP lamps.
The UHP lamps are proven technology and are easy to get for a low price (used projectors on eBay), but somewhat finicky to get up and running. I currently don't see the benefit of these new bulbs.
Here is a thread on them: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Sirius-HRI-or-MSD-platinum-lamps-(short-arc)
The moving head you linked to does indeed seem to have a very high candela rating. If you compare it with others you will probably also notice that it has a lens with an unusually large diameter. That would explain the high value, if competing models have maybe a third of a fourth of the candela.
Edit:
With an approximated lens diameter of 15cm and their candela rating I get a luminance value of around 1400cd/mm^2 with just the losses of the main lens. Because of all the additional losses in the optical system (such lights are rather inefficient) it is probably closer to 2000. This would mean that these new lamps have basically the same performance as the UHP lamps.
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Enderman
Enlightened
Maybe one day I can get my hands on a Sharpy and take it apart to see what lenses it uses.
It sucks that osram doesn't list the arc length or lumens or cd on any of their datasheets :C
This site lists all the HRI lamps and their lumens, although it only gives the arc length for the first two.
http://www.mgc-lighting.com/product.../platinum-sirius/osram-sirius-hri-280-w-lamp/
http://www.mgc-lighting.com/product.../platinum-sirius/osram-sirius-hri-330-w-lamp/
http://www.mgc-lighting.com/product...-osram-sirius/osram-sirius-hri-330-w-xl-lamp/
http://www.mgc-lighting.com/product...-osram-sirius/osram-sirius-hri-330-w-x8-lamp/
The X8 one draws less current, outputs more lumens, and has higher CRI.
It sucks that osram doesn't list the arc length or lumens or cd on any of their datasheets :C
This site lists all the HRI lamps and their lumens, although it only gives the arc length for the first two.
http://www.mgc-lighting.com/product.../platinum-sirius/osram-sirius-hri-280-w-lamp/
http://www.mgc-lighting.com/product.../platinum-sirius/osram-sirius-hri-330-w-lamp/
http://www.mgc-lighting.com/product...-osram-sirius/osram-sirius-hri-330-w-xl-lamp/
http://www.mgc-lighting.com/product...-osram-sirius/osram-sirius-hri-330-w-x8-lamp/
The X8 one draws less current, outputs more lumens, and has higher CRI.
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P-VIP, UHP, HRI sirius and MSR Platinum are all built on the same technology, UHP - Ultra High Performance, AC Mercury arc. But the moving head lamps, MSR and HRI, may be built a little more robust to handle more heat. Perhaps slightly thicker electrodes and longer molybdenum foil, but nothing significant as far as I know.
Enderman
Enlightened
Yeah, you're right they're all very similar.
The differences are mainly the amount of lumens and the arc gap.
Maybe in a year or two we will see those experimental 0.3mm arc gap bulbs available?
One can hope.
A_L_R_O_M
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2016
- Messages
- 82
There is a chance to get 0.3 mm arc burners if we create group buy!
As far as i know original burners are made in Japan (phoenix wick burner)
I will try to contact them soon.
As far as i know original burners are made in Japan (phoenix wick burner)
I will try to contact them soon.
The_Driver
Flashlight Enthusiast
The_Driver
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: What short arc for maxabeam like searchlight
I think this is very unlikely.
This is an experimental bulb mentioned in a scientific document from 2005. They have not been introduced for 12 years... Projector manufacturers are now starting to move towards lasers.
The problem with the shorter arc gaps is that the bulb manufactuers are reaching physical boundaries. A shorter arc means that the temperature is higher. Both of the electrodes and also of the quartz envelope. Maybe there are also problems with the gas mixture and/or the pressure.
EDIT:
I just found a more detailed version of the graph here.
Yeah, you're right they're all very similar.
The differences are mainly the amount of lumens and the arc gap.
Maybe in a year or two we will see those experimental 0.3mm arc gap bulbs available?
I think this is very unlikely.
This is an experimental bulb mentioned in a scientific document from 2005. They have not been introduced for 12 years... Projector manufacturers are now starting to move towards lasers.
The problem with the shorter arc gaps is that the bulb manufactuers are reaching physical boundaries. A shorter arc means that the temperature is higher. Both of the electrodes and also of the quartz envelope. Maybe there are also problems with the gas mixture and/or the pressure.
EDIT:
I just found a more detailed version of the graph here.
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A_L_R_O_M
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2016
- Messages
- 82
Re: What short arc for maxabeam like searchlight
They need huge quantity, and i still can't contact original phoenix wick burners company.
Yeah, thanks for the document, i dig deep into uhp technology, as i'm doing my own searchlights with that kind of bulb.
I ihink , no way we could get 0.3 mm or even 0.4 mm burners.
But in a cost of dramatically lower life, i think we can get 0.5 - 0.6 mm burners.
Let's say 200W 0.5 mm with a thicker electrodes, and 300-500 hours.
But the problem is to find a company that will do that easily, with an acceptable quality, with a quantity like 25-50 pieces.
They need huge quantity, and i still can't contact original phoenix wick burners company.
Yeah, thanks for the document, i dig deep into uhp technology, as i'm doing my own searchlights with that kind of bulb.
I ihink , no way we could get 0.3 mm or even 0.4 mm burners.
But in a cost of dramatically lower life, i think we can get 0.5 - 0.6 mm burners.
Let's say 200W 0.5 mm with a thicker electrodes, and 300-500 hours.
But the problem is to find a company that will do that easily, with an acceptable quality, with a quantity like 25-50 pieces.
Enderman
Enlightened
Re: What short arc for maxabeam like searchlight
Hey guys, could you give me your opinion on this?
http://www.nasasearchlights.com/nasasearchlights.com/HD-1_SEARCHLIGHT.html
3.3 billion candlepower from a 20" diameter reflector...
According to my calculations that is 19 THOUSAND cd/mm^2 from the lamp, which they say is an Ushio EmArc of unkown model.
https://www.ushio.com/technology/emarc/
AFAIK the highest intensity from a commercially available short arc lamp is ~3000 from the Osram XBO2001W
Is that even possible??? Or is this company just making up BS numbers?
@PolarLi please give your input if you see this
Hey guys, could you give me your opinion on this?
http://www.nasasearchlights.com/nasasearchlights.com/HD-1_SEARCHLIGHT.html
3.3 billion candlepower from a 20" diameter reflector...
According to my calculations that is 19 THOUSAND cd/mm^2 from the lamp, which they say is an Ushio EmArc of unkown model.
https://www.ushio.com/technology/emarc/
AFAIK the highest intensity from a commercially available short arc lamp is ~3000 from the Osram XBO2001W
Is that even possible??? Or is this company just making up BS numbers?
@PolarLi please give your input if you see this
Enderman
Enlightened
Re: What short arc for maxabeam like searchlight
Ok good to know, thanks!
Ok good to know, thanks!
The_Driver
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: What short arc for maxabeam like searchlight
The highest possible luminance is around 6000cd/mm^2 (actually much higher than the sun (1600cd/mm^2)!). This was achieved with high-wattage(>=5kW) Xenon short-arcs and with an experimental UHP bulb with a 0.3mm arc gap (only in the lab). Unfortunately both light sources can not be used in a portable light.
The highest possible luminance is around 6000cd/mm^2 (actually much higher than the sun (1600cd/mm^2)!). This was achieved with high-wattage(>=5kW) Xenon short-arcs and with an experimental UHP bulb with a 0.3mm arc gap (only in the lab). Unfortunately both light sources can not be used in a portable light.
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