Which currently available Eneloop battery do you prefer, and why?

[Rosoku Chikara]

They have wrappers. The model number is HR-3UWXA

Sorry, bwm, but N8N's humor seems to have gone over your head. We know that they have wrappers. He was just poking a little fun at you because you wrote "XXX eneloops" (where I am sure you meant to write "XX eneloops"). I think N8N was just inquiring as to just what sort of "truly exotic" batteries you might be in possession of... none of us ever having heard of those "XXX eneloops" before.

 

[ALW248]

The bottom line is that it seems like battery technology has come a ways since the dreaded Energizer 2500 AA batteries. Perhaps some of the LSD technology pioneered with the Eneloop 2000s has trickled down into other batteries. Even HSD batteries seem to hold a charge and last longer than they once did. So if you want higher capacity batteries, it seems like there is no longer a reason to avoid them altogether. And if you want C and D batteries, there is no reason to use Eneloops in adaptors and put up with increased resistance and lower capacity in order to avoid bad batteries. I'm sure there are still crappy, no-name batteries out there. But good, name brand batteries all seem to have improved GREATLY in the last few years.

Which non-LSD NiMH are good? I actually want non-LSD, instead of Eneloop. But it seems that Energizers, etc., all switched to LSD. Too bad.

 

[StorminMatt]

Which non-LSD NiMH are good? I actually want non-LSD, instead of Eneloop. But it seems that Energizers, etc., all switched to LSD. Too bad.

A couple of things. First of all, I'm not sure if the Energizer 2300 AA batteries are LSD. There doesn't seem to be a general consensus on this. On the other hand, they DO have significantly higher capacity vs Eneloops/Duraloops. And they also seem like pretty good batteries. Even if they're not technically LSD, they seem to do a good job holding a charge. At least in the short term (ie a month or two). But perhaps most importantly, like I said, it seems like many good non-LSD batteries are getting better and better at holding a charge. No, they may not have anything left in them after six months to a year. But within the time frame of a couple of months, they still have LOTS of capacity left. Like I said before, it takes more than three months before a 10000mAH Tenergy Premium D self discharges to the capacity of a Tenergy Centura.

As far as brands, I would just look for a good name. The Japanese made Energizer 2300s and Japanese made Duracell 2450s appear to be good quality Sanyo cells. Also, Tenergy Premiums are good. But apparently, lots of people have had poor luck with the plain old blue Tenergy batteries.

 

[espresso]

I'm recharging every day and my last XX lasted below 200 cycles. I would say around 160 if I had to guess but it was definitely below 200. After this number of cycles, XX had 1800 mAh and increased resistance. There was a significant voltage drop on higher loads and the battery wouldn't charge in fast chargers. It was used in a wireless mouse, charged at 600mA every day with occasional refreshing. The discharge current probably wasn't more than 250mA.

Now I use only regular Eneloops in applications that require frequent charging because I saw that advertised 500 cycles really don't mean much in everyday use. Cycle life can be used for comparison between batteries maybe but not as a real estimate how long your batteries will last. With regular use, cycle life is most likely to be multiple times less than advertised. And I see so many people taking the exact cycle life in their calculations here.

 

[Rosoku Chikara]

I'm recharging every day and my last XX lasted below 200 cycles. I would say around 160 if I had to guess but it was definitely below 200. After this number of cycles, XX had 1800 mAh and increased resistance...[excerpted]

Thank you for this very specific information, based on your first hand experience.

I confess that I am very new to Eneloops, and still trying to learn. Can you, or others on the forum with a better understanding of LSD battery chemistry, translate your first hand experience into what is likely to happen when the same battery is charged much less frequently? In other words, as a novice, it seems to me that "charging every day" might be harder on a battery, than charging only once a week. If that is at all true, might the black XX (or Pro) Eneloops last a bit longer, if treated a bit more gently?

In any case, as I have already mentioned in earlier posts on this thread, even 100 cycles will likely be more than adequate for my personal needs. 100 cycles will give me nearly 2 years of service, even in my "charge-once-a-week" (high demand?) applications. Many, if not most, of my Pro Eneloop batteries are going into seldom used flashlights, emergency lights, and other applications where they are not likely to be recharged much more often than once a year (in those applications 100 cycles = 100 years!).

You may wonder why I even bother with Eneloops, but in Japan, even the black Eneloop Pro is cheaper than a Lithium primary cell. I used to use non-LSD Ni-MH (Panasonic Evolta) and they were good batteries, but their self-discharge rate drove me crazy. All those "seldom used flashlights, emergency lights, and other applications" had to be kept charged on a regular basis, or else they were not useful when needed.

By the way, interestingly enough, wireless mice, wireless keyboards, remote controls, alarm clocks, electronic thermometers, electronic scales, etc. are the very applications where I am now using my old Evolta batteries. I just run them until the device is dead, and pop in another "fresh" set and keep on going. (Or relatively "fresh" set, depending how long those "fresh" batteries have been laying around since their last recharge.) Such devices seem to use so little power that I never seem to have to replace their batteries very often.

Alarm clocks and other devices with displays seem to "fade" (grow so dim that they are hard to read), so I seem to get ample warning before the device actually quits working. Mice, keyboards and remote controls, do "suddenly" quit working, but as I said, I always have some sort of replacements handy. (Worst case, I can always "rob" something nearby.)

 

[espresso]

what is likely to happen when the same battery is charged much less frequently?

Hi. I think that the battery doesn't care. It even prefers frequent charges which "keeps the chemistry alive" as people like to say.
I wouldn't consider everyday charge as aggresssive in a way that high current charge is aggressive. It simply means that the battery will reach it's cycle life quicker.
However, charge/discharge current, temperature and the level of overcharge play a vital role in prolonging battery life.
There's a chart around here that shows how much Eneloop cycle life suffers when charged at 1C, it falls down to 500 cycles or so.

P.S.
Found it
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...MH-Batteries&p=3072318&viewfull=1#post3072318
We can see the consistent performance up to 200 cycles and a very steep decline starting at around 250 cycles. I'd say the battery isn't good beyond 300 cycles in this situation.

 

[Rosoku Chikara]

...Finally, if we want to compare the total cost between regular and XX, we have to take into account that e.g. a regular one will be replaced let's say after 500 cycles whilst an XX probably sooner i.e. at 250 cycles, also taking into account the more capacity per cycle for XX. That means, when we buy our 2nd set of regular eneloops, we'll buying our third set of XX's. This wasn't taken into account at the initial post so the cost difference results might not be that trivial but I honestly don't think the case is the overall cost, it is mostly the reliability aspect and XX's don't have that long history yet to indicate they are at least close to regular eneloops robustness...[excerpted]

Your point about cost is well taken. And, while I realize that your final point goes more to the issue of "robustness," since I had a bit too much free time on my hands, I decided to attempt to model the costs in a bit more detail. Here are my results:

First, just to be clear, I am taking the Standard Eneloop (4th Gen.) and comparing them to the Eneloop Pro (3rd Gen.) which are the two types that are currently available here in Japan.

Their stated maximum capacities are 1900mAh and 2400mAh, and their stated maximum number of cycles is 2100 and 500, respectively. Without taking any loss factors into account, a 500mA load should yield 3.8hrs and 4.8hrs, respectively. Meaning, that if the Eneloop Pro manages to function with good performance (reasonable performance?) for 100 cycles, then the Standard Eneloop, used in the same application must be cycled approximately 126 times to achieve the same aggregate runtime.

Now, for the time being, I am assuming a recharge cycle of once per week (52 times per year) for the Eneloop Pro, which translates into 66 times per year for the Standard Eneloop, since it must be recharged that much more often to achieve the same aggregate runtime.

Also for the time being, I am assuming that the maximum useful life of both batteries is the same (when expressed as a percentage of the stated maximum number of cycles). In this case, I am using 20% for both cells: 100 cycles for the Pro Eneloop, and 420 cycles for the Standard Eneloop. (I recognize that this is a highly questionable assumption, and the Standard Eneloop may likely have a longer useful life, even when expressed as a percentage, but we will get to that later.)

The cost of a Standard Eneloop cell in my market is about $2.91. And an Eneloop Pro costs about $3.28 (or 12.7% "differential", meaning $0.37 more). But, since I know that Eneloop Pros can cost "double" in some markets, I am also doing the same calculation for an Eneloop Pro that might cost $5.82 (or 100.0% "differential", meaning $2.91 more).

If you assume (for the time being) that Standard Eneloops are good for "only" 420 cycles, at 66 recharges per year, that translates into 6.4 years. And over the course of that same 6.4 years, if you choose to use Eneloop Pros, you will find yourself replacing your Eneloop Pros 2.3 more times to achieve the life of the Standard Eneloop. (In other words, 1 x Standard Eneloop = 3.3 x Eneloop Pros.)

Now finally getting to "total" cost: with the 12.7% price differential, the Eneloop Pros will cost you a "total" of $10.90 each, over the course of those 6.4 years. And, at a 100% price differential, they will cost you a "total" of $19.35 each. (Without taking inflation, or other similar factors into account)

Granted, this may not be an insignificant amount of money, yet it is over a 6.4 year period.

And, as has been a significant reason behind my originally starting this thread, when viewed in terms of cost per cycle, the costs are $0.007 per cycle for the Standard Eneloop, and $0.026 per cycle for the Eneloop Pro (12.7% price "differential") and $0.046 per cycle (100% price "differential"): neither of which strike me as unduly burdensome.

Anyway, I also "fooled around" with the numbers some. Best I can tell, changing discharge rates, or frequency of recharging has no real effect. (If you are a heavy user of batteries, you will find yourself spending more on batteries over time.)

But, having read the many well considered posts in this threat, I too, am concerned about the ultimate "robustness" of the Eneloop Pro. So, I do feel it may be unfair to the Standard Eneloop to use the same 20% of stated maximum number of cycles to reflect their true useful life.

So, I tried using 30% (or 630 cycles) and even 40% (or 840 cycles), with the result of their battery life being extended to 9.6 years and 12.8 years, respectively. (I honestly don't see myself being worried about batteries that I purchased in 2013, when it gets to be 2025... do you? (I realize, of course, some people do recharge very frequently, but I believe most people don't.)

Anyway, the cost per cycle of the Standard Eneloop drops off to $0.005 and $0.003, respectively. But, since their number of useful cycles is being held constant, the Eneloop Pros still cost "only" $0.046 per cycle, even though you must purchase 6.7 times as many (given the 40%) scenario above, over a 12.8 year period. (Don't forget, you get the automatic "added bonus" of having 5.7 --less than perfect, but probably still "useful?"-- batteries laying around.)

I guess, what I am really trying to say (again) is: "Isn't it worth a nickle per cycle to you, to get use the battery of your choice on a daily basis?"

In my opinion, the cost of batteries (no matter which type you decide to buy) seems like a fairly minor cost when compared to what most people spend on food and drink, or putting gas in their car. Yet, I see them as equal necessities. (So, why "scrimp" on batteries?) I like the longer runtimes of the Eneloop Pro. Especially, the longer runtimes at the end of one year without recharging.

But, I will add this: Having read everyone's posts, if I find my Eneloop Pros failing suddenly, and/or catastrophically, I will be the first to go out and purchase me some "tried-and-true" Standard Eneloops (assuming the 4th Gen. is a good as the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd have apparently been).

In the meantime, I have tried to start off "right" with my new Eneloop Pros, and I am using my new MAHA MH-C9000 to perform Break-In and Refresh-Analyze on them "out of the package." And, I am keeping accurate records. So, in a few years, I should be able to report my own experiences.

In the meantime, if you managed to get to the end of this... Thanks for listening!

 

[mesa232323]

I currently own the 1900 MAH cells. They go through extreme abuse being double triple and even quadruple charged by accident. I charge my cells 5 times a week for the last 6 months and let them get drained to nothing while forgetting about the lights still running. I pull around 3 amps through my cells with the Welch Allyn 1164 bulb and let the cells get very hot while in the process. Those cells rock and seem to have better capacity now then when they were new. White label with 1900 MAH capacity are the only Sanyo batteries I've ever owned so I've never had a chance to stress test any other models.

 

[apagogeas]

Your point about cost is well taken...

There are a lot of assumptions in your analysis although it is detailed and draws some useful conclusions. The cost might be insignificant if we talk for a single set of 4 batteries over the course of 6.4 years. If you have many devices that rely on such batteries then it might be a considerable amount to think about when replacing all these will come 3.3 times sooner. The bottom line is, if we don't really need that extra capacity, why someone would invest in XX which is worse in every other aspect compared to regular ones? I don't say XX is rubbish of course, far from that, I simply say there is a cheaper and even better battery out there to use if capacity isn't crucial. And I believe you'll throw many more XX's before giving up a regular eneloop, quite sooner than you actually believe: higher capacity = fragile cell.

 

[SaraAB87]

I am pretty sure it's cheaper in the USA to get a pack of eneloops over a pack of energizer lithiums for example. Unless you really have an application where lithium is absolutely necessary, in that case you are stuck with them. The eneloops would yield much more capacity since they can be recharged for about the same cost as lithiums that can't be recharged.

The only way it would be good to get lithiums is if you can find them cheaply and perhaps put them in a device like a remote where they won't need to be changed for a while, this way you can save a set of Rechargables for the things that drain more heavily. I found some phone chargers on clearance for $2 that contained energizer lithiums in the packaging so I bought those, $4 for 4 lithiums isn't too shabby when they run $9-10 a pack for 4 here. This is what I do with my lithiums, I don't ever have to worry about my remotes leaking now!

If you bought other brands of Rechargables with coupons Iike the rayovac platinum for $10 with a $3 coupon you could further reduce the cost of Rechargables from the lithiums thus making them more economical than lithium even if you were to toss the cells after 100 cycles. If it costs $7 for rayovac platinum and $9-10 for energizer lithium it would be cheaper to get the rayovac platinum.

Of course I am also assuming that the user does not want to use alkalines due to leakage or other reasons, which would be me.

 

[ALW248]

I'm not sure if the Energizer 2300 AA batteries are LSD. There doesn't seem to be a general consensus on this.

Old Energizer 2300 might be non-LSD. New ones are pre-charged. Pre-charging can cause severe damage to non-LSD, if they are not sold and used in, e.g, a month.

For capacity, I want the lowest that would last me one day. I can recharge at the end of the day.

If I want LSD, Eneloop Lite is best for me. But if they are not easily available, 1500x Eneloop would be fine.

But they do not sound as energetic as non-LSD NiMH in my audio devices. My theory is that LSD makes them slightly slower in supplying pulse discharge.

So I am looking for good quality non-LSD. High capacity NiMH above 2000mAh are not very robust. It is not that unlikely that one cell in a pack of four can be damaged within half a year.

Eneloop Pro claims the same as non-LSD, 500x.

What I want most is non-LSD low capacity cells, below 2000mAh. But if I can not find any, I can live with high capacity ones. I just need to pay some attention to the charging display of voltage and mAh, to spot the bad cells.

Eneloop below 2000mAh provide more peace of mind. But since they don't sound good in my audio devices, I have to look for something else.

 

[Marc999]

I have a few simple needs for batteries:

In my case, 2 handheld Garmin GPS devices, a point 'n shoot Canon camera and 3 flashlights. A scattering of remote controls and alarm clocks.

I haven't bought batteries in over 2-2.5 years and don't see the need anytime soon.
I have 1 set of the Eneloop XX (Pros) and a bunch of Eneloop 1st & 2nd gen batteries and a few off-branded equivalents.

Regular Eneloops @ Thomas Dist. are now $12.50 more or less, for a 4-pack + shipping. The last time I looked at that website was when they were $9.99. I could have sworn I last looked at the site ~ 6 months ago, which is quite a hefty increase.
Eneloop XX are now $21 + shipping of course,
Locally? Regular Eneloops - $20.00 for 4-AA or 4-AAA. Eneloop XX $25.00
I'm not sure what's happened but in my opinion these prices are ridiculous. I'm glad I stocked up when I did.

If you're in need of extra juice, sure may as well pay the $5.00 premium, considering the smaller gap between the two.
If you can find regular eneloops cheaper, then no I don't think the XX would be worth it, unless you're a professional photographer...even then.

 

[Marc999]

I have a few simple needs for batteries:

In my case, 2 handheld Garmin GPS devices, a point 'n shoot Canon camera and 3 flashlights. A scattering of remote controls and alarm clocks.

I haven't bought batteries in over 2-2.5 years and don't see the need anytime soon.
I have 1 set of the Eneloop XX (Pros) and a bunch of Eneloop 1st & 2nd gen batteries and a few off-branded equivalents.

Regular Eneloops @ Thomas Dist. are now $12.50 more or less, for a 4-pack + shipping. The last time I looked at that website was when they were $9.99. I could have sworn I last looked at the site ~ 6 months ago, which is quite a hefty increase.
Eneloop XX are now $21 + shipping of course,
Locally? Regular Eneloops - $20.00 for 4-AA or 4-AAA. Eneloop XX $25.00
I'm not sure what's happened but in my opinion these prices are ridiculous. I'm glad I stocked up when I did.

If you're in need of extra juice, sure may as well pay the $5.00 premium, considering the smaller gap between the two.
If you can find regular eneloops cheaper, then no I don't think the XX would be worth it, unless you're a professional photographer...even then.

 

[N8N]

Right now in the US, Maha Imedion AAs are available from Thomas Distributing for less than standard Eneloops. They might not last as long because they're probably more comparable to an Eneloop XX, but more power argh argh argh and I can't seem to find anything *less* expensive other than the Tenergy Centura AAs, and the Duraloops which are depleted in my area.

I would feel better if they had the familiar Eneloop name on them, but I've already been using the Imedions in my TK41 with no apparent issues... I actually haven't run them out the first time yet, but I don't use that light as often as some of my others either.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Right now in the US, Maha Imedion AAs are available from Thomas Distributing for less than standard Eneloops. They might not last as long because they're probably more comparable to an Eneloop XX, but more power argh argh argh and I can't seem to find anything *less* expensive other than the Tenergy Centura AAs, and the Duraloops which are depleted in my area.

I would feel better if they had the familiar Eneloop name on them, but I've already been using the Imedions in my TK41 with no apparent issues... I actually haven't run them out the first time yet, but I don't use that light as often as some of my others either.

Just an FYI:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ut-Eneloops-GP-ReCyKos-and-Imedions-it-s-done!

Chris

 

[mikekoz]

I value capacity over how many times a cell can be recharged. I have no way of knowing how many times a battery has been recharged and am not sure how you would keep track of it! Is charging a battery when it is only say 50% down be considered a full charge cycle? I also believe you will be old and gray by the time these batteries kick the bucket! I have some AA NIMH cells made by Rayovac and Kodak that are probably about 6 years old and they are still going strong! Considering they are considered inferior cells by most, the Eneloops should do even better. So to me, the charging cycles rating is just a number. I have a mixture of Eneloops and Duraloops that I have bought when they were on sale, and I have a bunch of them still in the package. I have never used the Eneloop XXX cells but have recently started buying the new Duracell 2400 MAH "ion core" cells being sold at Walmart and Target. Rumor has it they may be rebranded XXX's, but I have no idea. I buy all my AA rechargeables from brick and mortar stores, so most are not Eneloops. Wolf Camera was the only place I shopped at that sold them and they are gone! Considering they are the "best" you can buy, they are marketed very poorly.

 

[Dirtbasher]

I value the LSD , nothing worse than picking up a Light with 20% life in the batteries, eneloops stay charged .....that's why I use them.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

I value capacity over how many times a cell can be recharged.

Then you might want to try some of the AccuPower 2900s, PowerEx 2700s and Sanyo 2700s.

They're HSDs and probably in the 300-500 cycle lifespan class, but they do have more capacity and if you're using them and charging them back up on a daily/weekly basis, you won't have to worry about the cells self-discharging too much.

When I joined this site, I bought a hodge-podge of quality HSD and LSD cells and I can see each's place in my battery stable, but at some point, I got too many batteries for all of my devices and so many of them will sit as I rotate through them.

In an emergency, say...from a hurricane, or general power outage, those HSD cells that have been sitting, might not be all that great if they're at 50% after a few months. This is where the LSDs will obviously shine--you can forget about them for years and they will still work. The hi-cap HSDs listed above, not so much so.

If you can buy dozens and dozens of batteries, then you probably don't have to worry about some of them dying on you prematurely, as you can replace them without a care. For me, I'm good on HSD/LSD cells for a few years, or at least until some of them start dropping below 80% of rated capacity and get recycled.

Chris

 

[mikekoz]

Then you might want to try some of the AccuPower 2900s, PowerEx 2700s and Sanyo 2700s.

They're HSDs and probably in the 300-500 cycle lifespan class, but they do have more capacity and if you're using them and charging them back up on a daily/weekly basis, you won't have to worry about the cells self-discharging too much.

When I joined this site, I bought a hodge-podge of quality HSD and LSD cells and I can see each's place in my battery stable, but at some point, I got too many batteries for all of my devices and so many of them will sit as I rotate through them.

In an emergency, say...from a hurricane, or general power outage, those HSD cells that have been sitting, might not be all that great if they're at 50% after a few months. This is where the LSDs will obviously shine--you can forget about them for years and they will still work. The hi-cap HSDs listed above, not so much so.

If you can buy dozens and dozens of batteries, then you probably don't have to worry about some of them dying on you prematurely, as you can replace them without a care. For me, I'm good on HSD/LSD cells for a few years, or at least until some of them start dropping below 80% of rated capacity and get recycled.

Chris

Thanks! I actually have some of the Powerex 2700's and they work great! I will look into the others.

 

[markr6]

SilverFox did a test in a thread somewhere (I can't find it). After a year? the voltage was still quite high, so I'm in no way worried about the discharge of my 18650s. Yes, they'll wear faster stored at 4.15v or so, but you just need to decide what's right for your use.