Why is titanium not standard?

[Locoboy5150]

One word - cost.

I have experience in using both titanium and aluminum for military applications and the cost of titanium, even for full production runs, is staggering compared to aluminum.

 

[jblackwood]

Don brings up a good point about the different grades of Ti. His LS20 was the first Ti light I ever got. That was followed by the Lummi Wee Ti, which preceded my two Quarks, which makes five total, right? Can you believe that the threads on both my McGizmo lights have never needed lubing and are as smooth as my Al lights which I HAVE lubed? The worst Ti threads in my collection are those in my Wee, which I've cleaned and lubed several times in order to alleviate the issue. I dread battery changes, especially since I have to baby that unprotected rechargeable battery. The Quark Ti threads are noticeably more rough and uneven than the McGizmo lights I have.

I guess it's fitting that the only light that comes excluseively in Ti is also the only light that I'd trade for all the rest due to not only quality but design as well. If I wanted a Nickel Wee or aluminum Quarks (which I do have), those options would be cheaper and have easier to turn threads.

 

[berry580]

if its not there, clearly not enough demand is there to allow profit.

There's not much flashaholics nowadays IMO, let alone flashaholics who prefer titanium, simple as that.

 

[Craig K]

Why Elzetta didn't just make a Ti light instead of Chrome plating, I'll never know, but that's a topic for another thread.

I agree.

 

[firelord777]

It's expensive...
Some alloys are apparently harder to machine than Aluminum...
It's expensive...
The average consumer isn't going to shell out $50 for a decent light, so they definitely aren't going to shell out for a $100+ Ti light...
It's too expensive for manufacturers to produce two of the same light, but one in Ti and the other in Al.
titanium doens't dissipate heat as easily as Aluminum.

This guy is spot on.

Look for instance at bike frames. Aluminum ones usually tend to cost less, because the material itself is fairly abundant, and relatively easier to shape and build things than titanium frames, which cost more and require special shaping methods

 

[fridgemagnet]

Link here
http://www.engineersedge.com/properties_of_metals.htm

Brass is also a relatively poor thermal conductor. It puzzles me why Brass and Titanium are always held in such high regards as flashlight metals.

Yup - no imagination. Monel is nice, corrosion free, and a fairly good conductor of heat and electricity. Beautiful too.
There's phosphor bronze, aluminium bronze, manganese bronze, silicon bronze...
Here is a list of metals and their conductivity...you can't easily beat aluminium tho.
http://eddy-current.com/conductivity-of-metals-sorted-by-resistivity/

 

[Fireclaw18]

Titanium:

• more difficult to machine than Al
• heavier than Al
• more expensive than Al
• less heat conduction than Al
• doesn't require anodization like Al

And btw, both Ti and Al are almost always used as alloys. Pure Ti is very expensive and pure Al is soft.

Agreed.

I have a few titanium lights, but they're shelf queens. They look pretty, but I find the aluminum versions are much more useful for actual use due to the lighter weight and better heatsinking.

 

[gunga]

I like to Edc ti nowadays. While I don't abuse my lights, I really appreciate the ability to refinish a light with (relatively) little effort.

 

[NoNotAgain]

Other than the gee-wiz factor, titanium doesn't offer anything special for a flashlight.

I own 4 titanium Litespeed bikes. They weigh two and a half pounds less than an aluminum framed and are 4 pounds lighter than steel. Titanium is very compliant so bikes made from it are smoother to ride. In my case, I like not having to deal with paint getting scratched and the corrosion that results in the base metal.

Commercially pure titanium is relatively soft, it scratches easily. Alloyed titaniums like 6AL4V cost more than CP titanium, require post processing to remove embedded metals from and forming. Hogging out a titanium bar to accept a certain battery size wastes a lot of material. With commercially pure ti going for cost to $75 a pound and the alloyed versions upwards of $90, titanium will always be an exotic metal for those that have the money for their toys.

For a flashlight, titanium might save a whole ounce of weight over using aluminum.

 

[Fireclaw18]

Other than the gee-wiz factor, titanium doesn't offer anything special for a flashlight.

I own 4 titanium Litespeed bikes. They weigh two and a half pounds less than an aluminum framed and are 4 pounds lighter than steel. Titanium is very compliant so bikes made from it are smoother to ride. In my case, I like not having to deal with paint getting scratched and the corrosion that results in the base metal.

Commercially pure titanium is relatively soft, it scratches easily. Alloyed titaniums like 6AL4V cost more than CP titanium, require post processing to remove embedded metals from and forming. Hogging out a titanium bar to accept a certain battery size wastes a lot of material. With commercially pure ti going for cost to $75 a pound and the alloyed versions upwards of $90, titanium will always be an exotic metal for those that have the money for their toys.

For a flashlight, titanium might save a whole ounce of weight over using aluminum.

Actually, ounce for ounce, titanium is heavier than aluminum. Simply substituting the same volume of aluminum with titanium results in a significantly heavier light.

Since titanium is stronger it may be possible to design a titanium light that is lighter than a aluminum version. But this can't be done just by swapping to a different metal with the exact same design. Instead, the entire design would be have to be modified so that everything is thinner in the titanium version and less metal is used. That's a lot of extra effort and expense to make a design that can only be constructed in titanium. And of course, if you use less metal, then heatsinking issues become even worse. So an ultra-thin titanium light wouldn't be able to be highly driven.

Bottom line is apart from looks, titanium is worse for flashlights than aluminum. Aluminum is the much more practical solution.

 

[NoNotAgain]

Bottom line is apart from looks, titanium is worse for flashlights than aluminum. Aluminum is the much more practical solution.

If I were going to build a titanium flashlight where weight reduction were my sole concern, I'd vacuum braze lugs to either end of a .012 thick tube. The only "heavy portion" would be the head, which would be finned for heat dissipation.

Over the years, the group in which I worked, would build these types of projects, first to prove it could be done, secondly as a government contract for a NASA type job. The $600 toilet seat is a cheap item compared to some of the items that we used to build. One off's are very expensive to design and build since in the "old days" the cost of the tooling was more than the value of the item being fabricated. Today with CAD systems and additive manufacturing, you can grow the tooling overnight and fab the part that you need to build at 1/3 the cost.

Titanium has a funny habit of catching fire if you get a little too aggressive while machining it. Been there, done that.

 

[Fireclaw18]

If I were going to build a titanium flashlight where weight reduction were my sole concern, I'd vacuum braze lugs to either end of a .012 thick tube. The only "heavy portion" would be the head, which would be finned for heat dissipation.

Over the years, the group in which I worked, would build these types of projects, first to prove it could be done, secondly as a government contract for a NASA type job. The $600 toilet seat is a cheap item compared to some of the items that we used to build. One off's are very expensive to design and build since in the "old days" the cost of the tooling was more than the value of the item being fabricated. Today with CAD systems and additive manufacturing, you can grow the tooling overnight and fab the part that you need to build at 1/3 the cost.

Titanium has a funny habit of catching fire if you get a little too aggressive while machining it. Been there, done that.

Perhaps.

But as I mentioned, it's not simply a matter of just taking one design and replacing all the aluminum with titanium. Since titanium is heavier than aluminum, doing so results in a noticeably heavier light. This is instantly evident when you pickup the aluminum version and titanium version of the same light. I have several like this (Olight S10 in aluminum and titanium, D25a and D25c both in aluminum and titanium, Jetbeam RRT-01 in aluminum v. TCR1 in titanium).... the titanium version is always much heavier. The weight difference is enough to be noticeable and makes me gravitate towards the aluminum versions.

To make a lightweight titanium light requires the design to be reworked to use less metal. This is pretty much the same effort required to design an entirely new light, and is more expensive than just swapping the metal.

Also keep in mind that aluminum itself is quite strong enough for most flashlight use even when really thin. It might not be possible to make a titanium light that weighs less than a comparable aluminum light and still have viable thermal mass for heatsinking.

I've yet to see anyone make a titanium light that weighs less than a well-designed aluminum light that does the same thing.

 

[StarHalo]

If weight is the concern, look to magnesium; an Al light machined out of Mg will be full one-third lighter.

 

[Fireclaw18]

If weight is the concern, look to magnesium; an Al light machined out of Mg will be full one-third lighter.

I'd be interested in seeing that. I wonder why nobody's tried making a flashlight out of Magnesium.

 

[nbp]

Uhh, fire hazard?

 

[Fireclaw18]

Uhh, fire hazard?

Hahah... good point!

 

[StarHalo]

Uhh, fire hazard?

Gotta coat it so it won't corrode anyway, so no worries there.

 

[nbp]

Imagine a vent with flame event in a Magnesium light. Awesomes!

I'm sure it wouldn't actually be as exciting as that but it's a novel thought anyways. Haha

To the original topic, Ti is definitely my preferred flashlight material these days but it does make for more expensive lights and most people don't care enough to see the value in it. Most people still use crappy old incans for that matter.

 

[adnj]

Titanium has no inherent advantages other than its anti-corrosive properties. It is pretty, though - and weighs less than stainless steel. I use a couple of Ti Quarks daily and it's easy to buff out a scratch from EDC use. They are great lights.

I just don't get the reason for only using titanium for limited edition runs. I lost out on the Quark series which is what I really wanted but I guess they are gone forever. If they make a profit on titanium, why not use it? :shrug:

 

[RetroTechie]

Titanium has no inherent advantages other than its anti-corrosive properties. It is pretty, though - and weighs less than stainless steel.

Well I've seen a number of SS lights over the years, most a lot larger than your average LED light today. Not that common, but not rare either. So weight can't be much of an issue. Nor thermal conduction - iirc, SS has even worse thermal conductivity than titanium or most types of brass, and flashlights have been made successfully out of all those materials.

If you try to find prices of titanium metal, all I can find are various shapes & alloys, most with a price in 6-20 US$ / pound range. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to me that price of the base metal isn't much of a problem. I can understand the cost of "difficult to machine" though...

I have only 1 Ti light so far, use and love it. So another way of phrasing above quote is: there are no (big) inherent disadvantages to using titanium, other than the cost of machining it. And it looks good. With 3D printing moving into metal territory as we speak (!), perhaps those machining costs will go down for titanium too. :thinking:

But given things as they are, no way titanium will beat aluminium for "lowest cost, good enough" uses.