ZebraLight's new 12-volt models require an **Unprotected Battery**

[kreisl]

i haven't looked yet into xhp led flashlights. there's an armytek goinggear shot show video which shows a 2000 lumens light from 1 single 18650 because of this new led.

 

[Aldiggi]

We need these manufacturers to specifically recommend to its consumers the exact battery for best performance overall. These LEDs are getting more powerful and the battery manufacturers need to evolve along with them. It sucks we have to have a stock of batteries until we find the right one for our light.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

We need these manufacturers to specifically recommend to its consumers the exact battery for best performance overall. These LEDs are getting more powerful and the battery manufacturers need to evolve along with them. It sucks we have to have a stock of batteries until we find the right one for our light.

Do you really think that Sanyo, Panasonic, Samsung, LG and/or Sony really care if their bare cells work in the new Zebralight SC600 Mk III?

They don't.

They deal in bulk sales to laptop makers, Tesla and to others who buy in the thousands, not some obscure flashlight maker who might make 1000 units of any given model.

Not a hater, but 'we' don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

In fact, I bet the 'vapers' have a bigger toehold in the ears of the cell manufacturers than we flashlight geeks and I don't think that they really matter one whit.

Chris

 

[Aldiggi]

Do you really think that Sanyo, Panasonic, Samsung, LG and/or Sony really care if their bare cells work in the new Zebralight SC600 Mk III?

They don't.

They deal in bulk sales to laptop makers, Tesla and to others who buy in the thousands, not some obscure flashlight maker who might make 1000 units of any given model.

Not a hater, but 'we' don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

In fact, I bet the 'vapers' have a bigger toehold in the ears of the cell manufacturers than we flashlight geeks and I don't think that they really matter one whit.

Chris

You are right. Then what battery do you recommend to run that bad boy [emoji6]

 

[ChrisGarrett]

You are right. Then what battery do you recommend to run that bad boy [emoji6]

Any 10A bare cell, like the S/P NCR1860GA, or LG MJ1.

They will fit and give the required amperage. It's not that difficult.

There are others, but you need to know what's required.

Chris

 

[Lumencrazy]

We need these manufacturers to specifically recommend to its consumers the exact battery for best performance overall. These LEDs are getting more powerful and the battery manufacturers need to evolve along with them. It sucks we have to have a stock of batteries until we find the right one for our light.

Panasonic does not sell unprotected batteries directly to the consumer. In fact, even if you are a manufacturer who installs protection circuits they have a written policy that you must first meet their requirements and audit before they will allow their unprotected batteries to be used by your company. We are getting our batteries through other channels. Furthermore, the flashlight market is absolutely insignificant to Panasonic and the others, and, if they could, they would prevent any unprotected batteries from ever reaching Joe Consumer. In 2013 250 million 18650's were manufactured and the new Panasonic factory in Nevada alone will produce more 18650's than the combined current world production. These plans have nothing to do with people buying flashlights. We don't even exist on their radar. We are not important! Furthermore, Panasonic would never make recommendations directly to Joe Consumer. That would be an insane policy with regards to liability laws since they have no control over our level of technical knowledge or how we use them.

 

[Gadgetman7]

So...do they have to be flat top or would IMR batteries work?

 

[ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond]

So...do they have to be flat top or would IMR batteries work?

Kinda two different questions here:

1) Do they have to be flat top? I believe the answer is yes. From what it seem a button top wouldn't fit.

2) Would IMR batteries work? You should definitely be using IMR or hybrid batteries that support a minimum of 10A constant. IMR/hybrid batteries come is both flat top and button top - see question 1.

In answer to a few of the other above posts in terms of batteries, Zebralight seems to have made a recommendation in that they have a 3500mAh 10A Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA battery for sale on their site.

I would say that any high current (10A+) unprotected flat top 18650 cell sold at Mtn Electronics or an equivalent reputable dealer should work. You could also check some of the vaping sites as they cell lots of the high current 18650 batteries as well.

 

[markr6]

Correct. I tried to cram a button top in, no go. That 1-2mm extra made it too long. But that's OK with me. You can either remove the button on cells you already have, or just buy a new flat top which just about all sellers have. Only some have button top options. We're talking unprotected flavors, here.

 

[recDNA]

Of the unprotected flat top batteries capable of 10 amps output do any of them have safer chemistry than the others? In other words if overcharged or short circuited are any less likely to vent with flame?

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Of the unprotected flat top batteries capable of 10 amps output do any of them have safer chemistry than the others? In other words if overcharged or short circuited are any less likely to vent with flame?

The old ICR vs. IMR vs. IFR (safe, safer, safest) monikers are somewhat outdated and archaic. Cobalt had a lower thermal runaway temp than manganese, which had a lower runaway temperature than iron phosphate.

The last pure ICR 18650, IIRC, was the Panasonic NCR18650 2900mAh cell. The A, B, G and GA using aluminum, or nickel, I think, or combos thereof?

These are the new hybrids and we don't really know the runaway temps for them and really, it's not going to matter too much if it's 265*, or 315*, so think instead, of buying quality cells, chargers and lights and having those be your 'safety nets' and roll on like a pro.

If you dead short any of the above, you might be in trouble, so don't dead short stuff and things should be fine.

Flying naked really isn't a huge risk, either 'practically, or philosophically,' IMO, when you try and ballpark the odds of something ka-booming on you.

Chris

 

[recDNA]

Is it possible for the old imr to vent with flame? I thought they merely vented poison gas.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Is it possible for the old imr to vent with flame? I thought they merely vented poison gas.

Yeah, they don't vent as violently, but poison gas ain't exactly a good way to go, either, right?

Nowadays, with the Chinese labeled stuff, we're not sure, as there's not a lot of documentation available, like we have with published datasheets for the Big 5: Sanyo, Panasonic, Samsung, LG and Sanyo.

If you buy quality cells, chargers and you monitor voltages, there's really little risk involved and we have a better chance of getting killed by falling space junk, or a pit bull, than we do with li-ion cells.

Chris

 

[recDNA]

Yeah, they don't vent as violently, but poison gas ain't exactly a good way to go, either, right?

Nowadays, with the Chinese labeled stuff, we're not sure, as there's not a lot of documentation available, like we have with published datasheets for the Big 5: Sanyo, Panasonic, Samsung, LG and Sanyo.

If you buy quality cells, chargers and you monitor voltages, there's really little risk involved and we have a better chance of getting killed by falling space junk, or a pit bull, than we do with li-ion cells.

Chris

Oh I know the gas is bad but I may have mistakenly always used exclusively AW IMR as my only unprotected battery type since I thought it couldn't set my house on fire even in worst case scenario. At least I could run away from the gas and open all the windows. An indoor lithium ion fire is a disaster.

 

[ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond]

Oh I know the gas is bad but I may have mistakenly always used exclusively AW IMR as my only unprotected battery type since I thought it couldn't set my house on fire even in worst case scenario. At least I could run away from the gas and open all the windows. An indoor lithium ion fire is a disaster.

Think about how many other no-name Chinese cell LiIon device you probably have in your home that you don't give a second thought to. All your cordless vacuums, drills, saw, trimmers, edgers, screwdrivers, etc. We leave these devices charging all the time and don't even think about them yet when it comes to a single cell we get overly concerned.

Stick with a name brand an you should be fine. Nothing wrong with sticking with AW cells. They have a solid reputation in both the flashlight and vaping community.

 

[recDNA]

You're absolutely right about that. Cell phones and computers too. We all thoughtlessly charge may li ion devices. It's all odds and the odds are in our favor.

Personally, I like the option of using AW protected batteries. I'm not saying everyone should. I also use AW IMR but they are all button top. The newest AW "IMR" 18650 flat top is a hybrid so no advantage to it chemically speaking. I may also misunderstand the old AW IMR. I thought they could not catch fire.

My favorite setup has a spring at both ends to have maximum battery size flexibility, fewer rattles, and better shock absorption.

I also do not like to exceed 3 amps. I don't need more power than that for my personal use.

 

[KeepingItLight]

Does the low-voltage cutoff in this driver work when a flashlight is off?

ZebraLights have a minuscule standby drain. In theory, therefore, it is possible that an over-discharge could occur when a flashlight is stored with the battery installed. I wonder whether the low-voltage cutoff circuit built into the driver can prevent this.

In practice, it would take a very long time for the standby current to completely drain the battery in a ZebraLight. In addition, a simple 1/4 turn of the tail cap will lock out a ZebraLight, cutting the standby current to zero.

Here is what selfbuilt reported about standby current in his review of the ZebraLight SC62.

Standby Drain

Due to the electronic switch, all Zebralights have a constant parasitic stand-by current drain when the tailcap is connected.

My SC62 has a negligible 4.3uA on 18650 (exactly the same as my SC600-II). This is well below the self-discharge rate of a standard battery, and not at all a concern (i.e., for a 3100mAh cell, that would theoretically translate into over 82 years before the battery would be drained).

As before, you can fully break this current - and physically lock-out the light - by twisting the tailcap a quarter turn.

If the new driver can get anywhere close to the values selfbuilt tested for standby current in the SC62, then the whole issue is moot!

 

[offtrail]

Re: Does the low-voltage cutoff in this driver work when a flashlight is off?

Everyone, thank you for a very enlightening and engaging discussion, so far.

 

[light-wolff]

I've been a ZL follower (almost fanboy) since their very first product (H50). I still believe they build superior flashlights, I like the look and feel and the UI. But I'm still not convinced that there is any real benefit from the decision to move to 12V-LEDs, or from the pogo pins, other than marketing.

Currently EDCing SC600w MK III, and SC63 NW preordered.
I don't want to speculate, I want to measure and know. If there's no improvement, I will sell these lights to people who believe that newer is always better.

The pogo pins have reduced electrical resistance compared to a spring.

This has been written several times, but nobody has so far produced any figures. It is very difficult to measure directly. Fact: my SC600 MK III has longer and more consistent runtime on max with a "springed" SC62 tailcap instead of the "pogo pinned" original. This translates to: spring has better contact and less resistance than pogo. At least in my example.
I've ordered spring tailcap PCBs from ZL to replace the pogo pins in my MK III.

Now consider the protection circuits themselves. I am not an expert, but my understanding is that they consume perhaps as much as a tenth of a volt...

At full current, yes. But even 0.1V is only 3% loss. Barely measurable, even less noticeable.

Since ZL was planning to build protection circuits into the driver, including them on the battery is, at some level, redundant.

Even the first SC600 had low-voltage cutoff. The 2nd version added step-down to next-lower level.

Redundant protection is good. Imagine what would happen if the driver shorts out? Plain short on the battery! This happened to me with a brand new Olight S30 - luckily, the battery was protected.

That being said, I've ever since been using only unprotected cells in my ZLs (only exception: SC52w). Main reason for this was the ability to use 4.35V cells for longer runtime. This point is now moot because 3500mAh cells like NCR GA, LG MJ1 and SDI 35E deliver more energy than the best 4.35V cells.

It still has to be shown whether the MK III is more efficient than the MK II regarding lm / W (W from battery).
A step-up driver from 3.6V to 12V is always less efficient than a step-down to 3.3V. I guess the LED's efficiency improvement is compensated or even over-compensated by higher driver loss.

1. If springs are used under the pins, they are shorter than a normal tail-cap spring. Shorter means less resistance to current flow.
2. If springs are used under the pins, they are probably soldered to the caps, giving a good connection.
3. When a single spring is used, all current must flow through that spring. At high currents, the spring will heat up. As temperature rises, so does the resistance of the spring.
4. When seven pins are used, the current is divided into seven parts. This alone reduces resistance.
5. In addition, because current is divided into seven parts, each pin will see less current. That means it will heat up less. Less heat means lower resistance.
6. Even if there are springs beneath the pins, that does not necessarily mean the spring will be the primary conduction path in the pin.

Some interesting points.

Ad 1: There ARE springs inside, it is a spring loaded contact after all.
Shorter spring means less resistance only if the spring wire has the same thickness. SC62 spring wire: 0.9mm.

Ad 2: No, they aren't soldered. How do I know? Disassembled such springs (from ATE nail beds), read datasheets, (though not the exact ZL variety, so I could be wrong).

Ad 3: Depends on material. A well-designed spring won't heat up, i.e. neglegible resistance rise.

Ad 4: Not if each of the 7 parts has more than 7 times the resistance of the single other part.

Ad 5: see 3.

Ad 6: Yes. But the hardest part of manufacturing pogo pins is probably to ensure good electrical contact between body and pin without blocking the movement. It is undesirable for the signal or current to flow through the internal spring alone. But it happens, depending on quality. The MK III pogo pins are very short, so it's difficult to maintain contact between their pin and body.

One thing, for sure, if I were a spokesman, I would learn very fast to stay away from techno-babble. It confuses the customer, and makes him feel stupid.

It only makes the stupid feel stupid. Others listen and get educated.

We need these manufacturers to specifically recommend to its consumers the exact battery for best performance overall. These LEDs are getting more powerful and the battery manufacturers need to evolve along with them. It sucks we have to have a stock of batteries until we find the right one for our light.

Zebralight does recommend NCR18650GA. This cell is easy to obtain.
Batteries have evolved a lot, the can deliver more current than the average flahlight needs.
But flashlights are certainly not driving any battery innovation.

If the new driver can get anywhere close to the values selfbuilt tested for standby current in the SC62, then the whole issue is moot!

Yes, it can: 3.8µA

 

[snowlover91]

I've been a ZL follower (almost fanboy) since their very first product (H50). I still believe they build superior flashlights, I like the look and feel and the UI. But I'm still not convinced that there is any real benefit from the decision to move to 12V-LEDs, or from the pogo pins, other than marketing.

Currently EDCing SC600w MK III, and SC63 NW preordered.
I don't want to speculate, I want to measure and know. If there's no improvement, I will sell these lights to people who believe that newer is always better.

This has been written several times, but nobody has so far produced any figures. It is very difficult to measure directly. Fact: my SC600 MK III has longer and more consistent runtime on max with a "springed" SC62 tailcap instead of the "pogo pinned" original. This translates to: spring has better contact and less resistance than pogo. At least in my example.
I've ordered spring tailcap PCBs from ZL to replace the pogo pins in my MK III.

I don't think they're making the switch for marketing reasons. They don't really advertise it or make a big deal about the pogo pins, the only way a person would know they use them is by either looking at the spreadsheet or reading reviews from people who own them. They don't make a big deal about it like a company would if the reason was due to marketing so I don't think that's why they made the switch.

Also I would add that in my communications with them they said they don't currently plan to use the pogo pins for their headlamps because they're not planning to boost the output right now so they're sticking with the springs. They have stated on another site through an email exchange that they had multiple reasons for the change to pogo pins. This includes the better efficiency for the new boost circuit, reducing return/warranty issues from customers using protected cells that trip under high amp draw, the benefit of smaller size/lighter and maintaining the efficiency they're known for. They've had to push the release back for the MK3, it was originally supposed to release late summer 2015 and kept getting pushed back due to designs for the circuit and getting the best performance. They usually thoroughly test their new designs and don't release it until it's right so I'm guessing in their testing the pogo pins gave the best results. I don't think they would switch to the pogo design unless it gave the best results. The SC5 switched to this design and I haven't seen a single issue with the pogo pins, shock or any other issues from the tail cap. I personally prefer the pogo pins and look forward to testing my SC63 and MK3 HI.