PIAA LED Reflector Series Any Good?

jzchen

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I noticed they have new LED lamps that have SAE approval. They have a fog light version that has my attention because my '12 Mercedes E63 wagon does not have fog lights, only DRLs. I haven't measured exactly yet, but might fit in the lower front valance where there seems to be a flat plastic plate I could possibly mount them on. Thanks!!!
 

-Virgil-

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No, their stuff is over-priced, over-hyped, and severely under-performing.

Why do you want fog lamps? They're just about useless.

(Also, there's no such thing as "SAE approval")
 

Alaric Darconville

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I noticed they have new LED lamps that have SAE approval.
The SAE isn't a regulatory agency; their "approval" doesn't exist and means nothing. Fog lamps are not Federally-regulated, so there is no compliance or "approval" or anything of the like involved.

It's PIAA. It's junk. If it's the $399.99 set I'm looking at right now on their page, it's 100% junk. 6000K CCT doesn't make for a good fog lamp, even if the beam pattern were perfect-- and since it's PIAA, it's not.

Avoid.

Also, this thread has quite a bit of information on the utility (rather, the lack thereof) of fog lamps. If you have them already, and they're good-- that's fine, but it's not usually worth it to try to add them to a vehicle that doesn't already have them. A better idea is a single *rear* fog lamp, so that people with their front fog lamps who drive too fast for conditions will not end up rear-ending you.
 

jzchen

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They have a yellow version with a fog beam pattern. I have night blindness and am slightly red green color blind. That $399 only gets you one 6" lamp though, but they seem to have a 10" $499, or 18" $599. Amazon has slightly better pricing. Always thought if used properly they were good in foggy conditions?

(Will read links about fog lights...)
 

Alaric Darconville

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They have a yellow version with a fog beam pattern.
And? It's still junk.

I have night blindness and am slightly red green color blind.
Fog lamps used NOT in fog will just make things worse for you. Fog lamps are only for fog and fog speeds (very slow). Night blindness, astigmatism, perfect vision, excellent color acuity, color blindness-- none of those have any bearing on that fog lamps are ONLY for fog. In the fog, use good fog lamps and slow down. They'll help you keep in your lane so you don't end up going into a ditch or into oncoming traffic.

they seem to have a 10" $499, or 18" $599.
Junk with increasingly higher diameters.

Amazon has slightly better pricing.
Junk at any price is still a ripoff.

Always thought if used properly they were good in foggy conditions?
Good fog lamps, used properly, yes-- they can help. But not PIAA.

(Will read links about fog lights...)
Good call!

For my $399 or $499 or $599, I'd get a single rear fog lamp and put the rest toward snow tires or something.
 
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Sadden

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I bought the halogen "plasma ion yellow" foglamps from them years ago, worse than useless and expensive.
 

-Virgil-

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Marketing at its finest. No plasma involved, no ions involved, so they call them "Plasma Ion".
 

GreySave

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Wow. Where do I begin and how do I do so without seeming to be confrontational. And granted, my comments are subjective based upon my personal experience and 35+ years in the automotive profession. (Not related to PIAA in any way beyond being a consumer of their products)

PIAA equipment. My experience is with their conventional bulbs. Yes, they are expensive but you get what you pay for. I have used their low and high beam bulbs for 7 years or so in multiple vehicles and have been very pleased with their output, the daytime white (Around 4,000K give or take) of the bulbs I selected, and their longevity. Lighting is important to me for a number of reasons and if installing PIAA bulbs has helped me to avoid one accident it is money well spent.

Fog Lamps - Useless? Come on folks. I also am currently using PIAA Plasma Yellow bulbs in the fog lamps of my vehicle. The yellow tint provides enhanced contrast in rain or snow and makes the paint markings stand out better than using white light. The wide beam pattern of correctly designed, installed, and aimed fog lamps provides additional up close and mid range illumination. And yes, I use them in dry weather in certain circumstances, such as on totally unfamiliar winding roads such as those found in Pittsburgh. They to not make things worse. Properly installed and aimed and using street legal bulbs they also do NOT bother oncoming drivers because the beam cut off point is well below their line of vision and their is far LESS glare (Almost non existent) than that created from most reflector based OE HID headlamps.

SAE Markings - ALL headlamps and even tail and side marker lamps ARE federally regulated. They MUST meet FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards). SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) is not a regulatory agency but....Your vehicle may not pass some State required inspections if aftermarket lighting is installed that is not SAE approved.

Aftermarket Fog Lamps - I have used fog lamps since the late 1970s, far before fog lamps were even available in most domestic vehicles. For the most part only a few imports had them. Quality SAE approved lamp assemblies properly installed, properly wired, and properly aimed (All criteria to meet your State and local requirements) will work, will not blind oncoming traffic, and will provide better illumination in fog, rain, snow, or on dry roads if so desired. Do be aware that like quality headlamp bulbs quality fog lamp bulbs may burn hotter and have a shorter life expectancy, so you do want to balance use with the level of expense you can tolerate.

LED Fog Lamps - I have no working experience with them but it is my personal belief that LED headlamps and fog lamp bulbs, unless specifically designed for the vehicle they are being installed in, are not quite "there" yet. Reflector based headlamps require the light source to be in a specific location and to be shedding light just like the original equipment bulb for the reflector to do its job properly. If it is out of place the beam pattern may be different than the original equipment bulb. I do use LED tail and brake light bulbs because they do provide increased output and color rendition and having good rear facing lighting is important to me in my role as an emergency responder. My tail and brake lights are still clearly visible even when the rooftop and liftgate strobes are active.

Bottom line....Think through what you want to install or use. Choose quality products that carry a SAE designation and make sure they are properly and legally installed, wired, and aimed. Some of what are being marketed as "fog lights" on well known web sites are for off road use only and will earn you a citation even if turned off but uncovered in some States.
 

fastgun

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Good fog lights do offer some benefit that even if small, makes it worth the expense for me. In a 1995 study by the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute, Michael J Flannagan, Michael Sivak, Eric C. Traube and Masami Aoki tell us, "Thus, while high foreground illumination does not improve seeing ability (except perhaps for minor effects with younger drivers or wet pavement), at least it does not have strong negative effects."

They further found, "High foreground luminance resulted in shorter seeing distances for older people and longer seeing distances for younger people. High foreground luminance also resulted in shorter seeing distances with dry pavement and longer seeing distances with wet pavement. However, all of the effects of foreground luminance were small, suggesting that although high foreground luminance does decrease seeing distances under some conditions, "it is probably not a major problem for drivers."


Daniel Stern informs us that, "fog lamps conforming to the newest, most stringent performance requirements give only very minimal improvement in actual seeing ability". He further states that, "if subjected to rigorous analysis, would likely not be statistically significant." I am open to any benefit in helping me see. A benefit that is not statistically significant to one person may well mean that I was the statistic those life or vehicle was saved from disaster. I will take that chance and use my fog lights when on wet pavement and in snowy or foggy conditions.
 

-Virgil-

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PIAA equipment. My experience is with their conventional bulbs. Yes, they are expensive but you get what you pay for.

Well, that depends on what we define as the product. If the product is a genuine, objective improvement (relative to an ordinary bulb) in your ability to see while driving, then no, we definitely don't get that with PIAA's bulbs, as has been demonstrated repeatedly in objective tests such as those carried out by AutoExpress. But if the product is the warm, fuzzy feeling that comes from believing we've made a clever purchase -- a clever investment -- then yes, we definitely get that when we buy PIAA's bulbs. That is their product. They're very good at marketing it.

I have used their low and high beam bulbs for 7 years or so in multiple vehicles and have been very pleased with their output

Probably so, but that doesn't mean their output is better, or even that it's good. All it means is that you're pleased with it. Which is nice, but that's all it is. We (humans) make subjective judgments of our headlamps' performance -- more generally, of how well we can see -- that are usually very far out of alignment with how well our headlamps are actually, objectively, measurably working for us and how well we can actually, objectively, measurably see. Companies like PIAA take advantage of the difference between what helps us see and what makes us feel like we can see.

the daytime white (Around 4,000K give or take)

4,000K is not "daytime white" in any real sense, and a bulb (PIAA or any other brand) with blue glass to tint the light is necessarily, automatically a poor choice if the goal is to maximize ability to see.

and their longevity

That is funny, because PIAA bulbs don't have a reputation for long life -- which makes sense, because blue "whiter light" bulbs necessarily have a relatively short lifespan. As Scottie used to say on Star Trek, "You cannae brrrrreak the laws of physics!".

.
Lighting is important to me for a number of reasons

It's life-safety equipment on a car, for sure.

and if installing PIAA bulbs has helped me to avoid one accident it is money well spent.

But it hasn't. You can do a whole lot better for a whole lot less money.

Fog Lamps - Useless?

Yes. Read the links in post #2 and #3 and the refs and citations they contain if you want to understand why that's the case.

I also am currently using PIAA Plasma Yellow bulbs in the fog lamps of my vehicle.

That's unfortunate.

The wide beam pattern of correctly designed, installed, and aimed fog lamps provides additional up close and mid range illumination.

Foreground light, it's called, and above a (low) amount, it's useless to counterproductive.

Properly installed and aimed and using street legal bulbs they also do NOT bother oncoming drivers because the beam cut off point is well below their line of vision and their is far LESS glare (Almost non existent) than that created from most reflector based OE HID headlamps.

It is definitely not the case that there's no glare because the cutoff is below eye height. Fog lamps tend to be small, with resultant very high luminance, which makes them more glaring than a larger lamp (such as a low beam headlamp) with the same bulb.

Your vehicle may not pass some State required inspections if aftermarket lighting is installed that is not SAE approved...Quality SAE approved lamp assemblies properly installed, properly wired, and properly aimed (All criteria to meet your State and local requirements)

There is (still) no such thing as "SAE approval".


Do be aware that like quality headlamp bulbs quality fog lamp bulbs may burn hotter and have a shorter life expectancy

...weren't you just talking about how long of a lifespan you (and apparently only you) get out of PIAA bulbs? (Also, no, they don't burn hotter unless they are of higher wattage)

I do use LED tail and brake light bulbs because they do provide increased output

There are a (very) few of them that do, in some lamps. Most of them severely degrade the safety performance of the lamp they're installed in.
 
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-Virgil-

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A benefit that is not statistically significant to one person may well mean that I was the statistic those life or vehicle was saved from disaster.

That's not even slightly close to being any kind of accurate. If you're interested in understanding what statistical significance means (and doesn't mean), you might want to grab an intro to stats text (dozens of them at any used bookstore, cheap) or take an online course.
 

XeRay

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Wow. Where do I begin and how do I do so without seeming to be confrontational. And granted, my comments are subjective based upon my personal experience and 35+ years in the automotive profession. (Not related to PIAA in any way beyond being a consumer of their products)

PIAA equipment. My experience is with their conventional bulbs. Yes, they are expensive but you get what you pay for.

Wow, unbelievable vote of confidence for PIAA, they are only a marketing company and manufacture NOTHING. As for their bulbs, they private label other peoples bulbs and if you are smart enough to figure out whose they are using for any given product, you can buy the bulb for 1/3rd to 1/2 of the PIAA price sometimes even 1/4 of the PIAA price. As for getting what you pay for from PIAA in the bulb department, they just put their name on it, ad a VERY healthy dose of hype and sell if for 2 to 4X what their source product sells for on the open market. In the lighting world they are the king of ripoffs with a marketing name that deserves no respect, yet it has some for no credible reason.
 

-Virgil-

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Wow, unbelievable vote of confidence for PIAA. In the lighting world they are the king of ripoffs with a marketing name that deserves no respect, yet it has some for no credible reason.

It's believable...advertising works! And it's no longer the straightforward "This is our product and here's why you should buy it" stuff of years ago. It's a highly advanced, highly researched science aimed at manipulating people's psychology and emotions, and it works. PIAA has put a lot of work, money, and strategy into building up their reputation. It's not based on quality products, it's based on hype and repeated hype. Oh, PIAA, yeah, I know all about them! I see people talking about those on the internet! I see their name on the side of race cars, and on light covers on kitted-out cars! I saw their booth at SEMA, ooh, and look, here's an ad! "A celebrity is someone famous for being well known" (M. Fishbein).

they are only a marketing company and manufacture NOTHING.

It's definitely a marketing company first and foremost. It's a child company of Ichikoh, one of Japan's three major makers of OE vehicle lighting equipment. So PIAA certainly has the resources to develop and commercialize basically whatever kind of lamps it wants to put in the aftermarket. From time to time there's a good product in the line, but for the most part it's chosen to go for the hype rather than the subjstance, probably in accordance with the nature of Japanese aftermarket tastes and preferences (which PIAA, among others, has successfully exported elsewhere around the world -- Stanley has their equivalent called Raybrig, and Koito puts out some product in that same vein). I can't fault them; they are going where the money is. For my money, I don't want lights I'm supposed to think are sexy or whatever, I want ones that really, actually work.

As for their bulbs, they private label other peoples bulbs and if you are smart enough to figure out whose they are using for any given product, you can buy the bulb for 1/3rd to 1/2 of the PIAA price sometimes even 1/4 of the PIAA price.

That is exactly right. For the US/Canadian market, they buy a lot of their bulbs from Osram-Sylvania. Some of them are just like bulbs Osram-Sylvania sells under their own name, and some of them are built to order (different shades of blue on the glass).

As for getting what you pay for from PIAA in the bulb department, they just put their name on it, ad a VERY healthy dose of hype and sell if for 2 to 4X what their source product sells for on the open market.

Yup. And people not only fall for it, they get on the internet and blare about how fantastic the product is. This is back to marketing: it's not just about getting people to buy the product, but to actually "believe" in the product and their cleverness in buying it, and go babble to other people about how they should be clever and buy it and believe in it, too.

Legitimate products with objectively good (or objectively better) performance do not require belief, proselytizing, or pages of purple prose. They work well regardless of belief.
 
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jzchen

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I always found it impressive that PIAA notes their bulbs: 55W -> 110W output. Nobody else, at least that I notice, ever notes their bulbs in this fashion. Definitely makes them sound good! That said, I would, in the past, install their Ion Yellow bulbs one at a time in the fog lamps, when one would burn out. I noticed it significantly brighter than the old bulb, but that was an OLD bulb!

I did look up Auto Express and PIAA to see how "poor" PIAA bulbs perform, but I couldn't find much/they do not seem to be testing PIAA bulbs in their tests? (I'm afraid I did bump into some comments about how Auto Express had changed their testing, posts here on Candlepowerforums back in 2012, in a bad way...)

In past experience, I have gotten caught driving in some really nasty weather. Situations where I could barely see in front of me and the light from the headlights was just glowing/reflecting off the "fog". At those times I did appreciate the fog lights on the car I was driving, and particularly the feature where they could be turned on, without the headlights. (Back then, HID did not exist, or at least we didn't have them in the cars my family had.) Sadly, as I know current regulations in CA require, (it's the law), that headlights be on with fog lights, and Toyota products in our household I note enforce this. Mercedes products will allow fog lights on, with parking lights only/(that is without headlights), as far as I know.

My experience with the HIDs in our '04 Sienna has not given me the opportunity to check how different HIDs alone, HIDs plus fogs, vs fogs alone in bad weather, because I can only have headlights on, or headlights on and fog lights on. I can not switch to fog lights only...

Again, thank you everyone for your honest opinion!!!
 
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Magio

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Daniel Stern informs us that, "fog lamps conforming to the newest, most stringent performance requirements give only very minimal improvement in actual seeing ability". He further states that, "if subjected to rigorous analysis, would likely not be statistically significant." I am open to any benefit in helping me see. A benefit that is not statistically significant to one person may well mean that I was the statistic those life or vehicle was saved from disaster. I will take that chance and use my fog lights when on wet pavement and in snowy or foggy conditions.

He also has this diagram in his article which I have edited with a red line to show that the bar representing headlights and newer spec foglights offer greater seeing distances than normal headlights alone. Because of this, and what Mr. Flannagan stated in his article, and my own experience, I don't see how someone can make a blanket statement that all foglights always result in shorter seeing distances because of increased foreground light. In my own experience the foreground light produced by my foglights is blocked by the hood of my vehicle. In my vehicle the only light from the foglights thats visible from the drivers seat is the light that it casts to the sides and is visible out the side windows. This greatly helps when pulling into dark driveways, and when driving on super curvy roads at night which I do quite a bit of. For this reason I often run my foglights even in dry weather.

 

-Virgil-

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I always found it impressive that PIAA notes their bulbs: 55W -> 110W output. Nobody else, at least that I notice, ever notes their bulbs in this fashion.

It's very common in the Japanese aftermarket.

I did look up Auto Express and PIAA to see how "poor" PIAA bulbs perform, but I couldn't find much/they do not seem to be testing PIAA bulbs in their tests?

Here's one and here's another and another and another and another and another. There were older, more detailed tests at these three URLs:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/product_test/product_test_story.php?id=39919
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/product_test/product_test_story.php?id=39917
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/product_test/product_test_story.php?id=39920

However, they have been taken down and for some reason the internet archive (http://web.archive.org), despite showing they have archives of those pages, won't load them -- maybe it's a transient error and/or someone else will have better luck.

In past experience, I have gotten caught driving in some really nasty weather. Situations where I could barely see in front of me and the light from the headlights was just glowing/reflecting off the "fog". At those times I did appreciate the fog lights on the car I was driving, and particularly the feature where they could be turned on, without the headlights. (Back then, HID did not exist, or at least we didn't have them in the cars my family had.) Sadly, as I know current regulations in CA require, (it's the law), that headlights be on with fog lights, and Toyota products in our household I note enforce this. Mercedes products will allow fog lights on, with parking lights only/(that is without headlights), as far as I know.

Richard Van Iderstine, who for many years was the chief rulemaker at NHTSA for FMVSS 108 (Lamps and Reflective Devices) has this to say on that subject:

Why can't you turn on just the fog lamps with the position lamps? Because the lowest common demominator for state fog lamps use laws is the use of them with the headlamps on. Thus, many manufactuers build their vehicle such that the only way for you and me to use our fog lamps is the way that is legal in all states. Alternatively, some companies allow us to use them with the position lamps only or with headlamps and allow us to decide when to use them based on our state law. Thirdly, some manufacturers allow us to turn them on when ever we chose, hoping that you don't get a ticket for misuse and sue them for not wiring the vehicle in a way that helps you not violate state law. The reason for this hodge podge is that there is no federal law that dictates how, thoughout the U.S., fog lamps should be wired.

The consequence is that it is proven by observational studies that drivers misuse their fog lamps most of the time by having them on either always at night (regardless of the weather) or alway, period, because they can be turned on.


My experience with the HIDs in our '04 Sienna has not given me the opportunity to check how different HIDs alone, HIDs plus fogs, vs fogs alone in bad weather, because I can only have headlights on, or headlights on and fog lights on. I can not switch to fog lights only...

Fog lamps are completely superfluous with HIDs -- Van Iderstine invoked the old "T**ts on a bull" chestnut when asked this question -- because of the enormous amount of foreground light produced by HID headlamps (and, for that matter, most other headlamps designed since 1998, which are the VOA type).
 

-Virgil-

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He also has this diagram in his article which I have edited with a red line to show that the bar representing headlights and newer spec foglights offer greater seeing distances than normal headlights alone

Not so fast, please, you're misrepresenting the data. The difference between "LB" (low beams alone, leftmost bar on the graph) and "J2510 & LB" (low beams plus F3 fog lamps, rightmost bar on the graph) is extremely tiny, and not even close to statistically significant -- which, to boil it down for those without any understanding of statistics, means the effect you think you're seeing on this graph does not really exist.

In my own experience the foreground light produced by my foglights is blocked by the hood of my vehicle. In my vehicle the only light from the foglights thats visible from the drivers seat is the light that it casts to the sides and is visible out the side windows.

It sounds like your fog lamps are aimed far lower than they're supposed to be, and/or you're misunderstanding "foreground". In fact, the foreground extends to about 50 feet in front of the vehicle. These low-aimed lamps aren't going to cause anyone any problems, and if they light up driveways and curbs for you, great.
 
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SubLGT

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It's believable...advertising works! ……………….And people not only fall for it, they get on the internet and blare about how fantastic the product is. This is back to marketing: it's not just about getting people to buy the product, but to actually "believe" in the product and their cleverness in buying it, and go babble to other people about how they should be clever and buy it and believe in it, too…..

I just read a great example of this at a Honda forum:

……...HOWEVER, for a MASSIVE HUMUNGOUS improvement put in a pair of PIAA Performance LED #17201 in your High Beam Spot...those are THE BEST money I've spent on lighting or additional after market lighting of any vehicle I've ever had. I have them on my 2015 Accord Hybrid Touring and they are totally awesome in that implementation, too.

:sick2:

Did a quick search, and discovered those PIAA 17201 LEDs are around $250 a pair! :eek:
 
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