Hey Nitro, solve this

js

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dy/dx = x^2 + y^2.

find y(x) in terms of a finite or infinite number elementary functions of x (i.e. you can use a power series, but since it's a non-linear first order ordinary differential equation--heh, heh--good luck) and in terms of y(0) = y0, a constant, and y'(0) = y'0, a constant.

This can be done. I have done it.

Have fun. Here's a real math problem with a real solution.
 

kongfuchicken

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derivative of the function y of x.
I'll get on this one as soon as I finish what I have to do for this tomorrow /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

js

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LEDmodMan,

Yeah, this one's a really difficult differential equation. So difficult in fact that my dif eq prof. gave it to us for a numerical methods problem, and she said for y(0)=0 and y'(0)=1 (I think those were the initial conditions) there was this major discontinuity at x=1 and that it couldn't be solved analytically ?!?! Can you believe that? It's a benign enough looking equation at first glance.

Anyway, I kept looking at the thing going "Nah. It's got to be solvable. What if I transformed to radial co-ordinates? Or what if I . . ." and so on. It kept me awake at night. I must've spent 40 hours solving the thing. I read up on non-linear differential equations and how to solve them. I tried to turn it into an integral equation I could solve. I tried wierd transformations (hyperbolic co-ordinates, IIRC) but nada. Then I had a breakthrough one Friday night in the library (and no, that's not usually where I spent weekend nights--I was hell bent on solving this thing) and when I went to bed I knew I only had another hour until I solved it. I woke up Saturday morning and solved it and checked to see if my solution fit with the numerical methods results. It did. I was so psyched. I ran around the dorm at 8 A.M. looking for anyone who was awake so I could show them.
 

Nitro

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Jim,

I didn't know my posts were going to start a math contest of who can come up with the hardest equation to solve.

I thought I would spark an intellectual conversation about math, in such a way that most people (who wanted to) could participate. All of your posts eliminate everyone that doesn't have a math degree.

To be honest, I'm a little rusty in solving differential equations, especially nonlinear. But I will attempt this one, because I like a challenge. I figure I have at least 40 hours to do so. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

However, what I find more challenging then solving complicated equations, is explaining advanced concepts to someone else.
 

kongfuchicken

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Hehe Jim, I tried this and it's a tough one indeed! Not at all what I thought it was.
I have a couple more tricks to try but I may not have the skills to get this one done just yet...
I'll surely try again after I finish my second year of college tho.
My dad took a look at it, then he chuckled and said he did so much of these he could solve it with his left foot. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif As you can see, he's really great at boosting my moral when I need it.
 

js

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[ QUOTE ]
Nitro said:
Jim,

I didn't know my posts were going to start a math contest of who can come up with the hardest equation to solve.

I thought I would spark an intellectual conversation about math, in such a way that most people (who wanted to) could participate. All of your posts eliminate everyone that doesn't have a math degree.

To be honest, I'm a little rusty in solving differential equations, especially nonlinear. But I will attempt this one, because I like a challenge. I figure I have at least 40 hours to do so. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

However, what I find more challenging then solving complicated equations, is explaining advanced concepts to someone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Sorry. It really is the mark of someone who has a good handle on math that he or she can explain something esoteric to a "layperson". That said, there is always the danger of trivializing and misrepresenting things. I was responding to a feeling I had that a "professional" mathematician would grimace at our threads and shake his or her head. The degree of precision, rigor, and intellectual prowess inherent in higher mathematics is truly astounding and leaves merely formal manipulations in the dust. In fact, this power is what enabled us to evolve such systems of representation and formal manipulation so that people can mechanically take derivatives and transform equations and experssions. Unfortunately, there are hidden pitfalls in doing these manipulations. In certain situations you can do something that doesn't make mathematical sense or is unsound. When approaching the problem of inverting y=x^x you need to get a lot more precise about just what you really mean by rasing real numbers to powers of real numbers.

I like the way you said it. Higher mathematics truly does become philosophy.

As for this math contest and my thrown gauntlet, I really did just throw it out there for fun, whatever the tone of my posts was the other day. I just have always had a sore spot for people who like to go around saying that math is nothing more than a way to say 1=1 in a really complicated fashion. I thought maybe this was your position. I'm a bit of a hot head sometimes.

As for the equation. I'll give a hint (a big one): the only hope of solving this (IMHO) is to transform it into a linear dif e.q. by a variable substitution. This is what most of non-linear dif e.q.'s is: cheating by changing any given non-linear eq. into a linear one.

Just to reassure you: we are guaranteed the existence and uniqueness of a solution for this equaton.
 

js

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[ QUOTE ]
Nitro said:

All of your posts eliminate everyone that doesn't have a math degree.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I disgree. My discussion of Cantor's work and which infinity is larger was addressed to those who do NOT have a math background. Matching up fingers and toes is hardly esoteric, no?
 

Lux Luthor

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[ QUOTE ]
js said:...Yeah, this one's a really difficult differential equation. So difficult in fact that my dif eq prof. gave it to us for a numerical methods problem, and she said for y(0)=0 and y'(0)=1 (I think those were the initial conditions) there was this major discontinuity at x=1 and that it couldn't be solved analytically ?!?! Can you believe that? It's a benign enough looking equation at first glance...

[/ QUOTE ]Well I did spend (waste really) a couple of hours trying to transform it (you *******! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif). As yet, I have been unsuccessful at using variable substitution for either the independent or dependent variables. It might be possible to first convert it to something like a Bernouilli eqn., which would then require an additional transformation to linearize it. It might also be possible to get an integrating factor that depends on both x and y, although there aren't any that depend only on either x or y. I might also try a hodographic transformation (switching dep. and ind. variables). But then again, I did read in a DE book that this equation has no elementary formula for it's solutions, so I may just give up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

Lux Luthor

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[ QUOTE ]
js said:
dy/dx = x^2 + y^2.

find y(x) in terms of a finite or infinite number elementary functions of x (i.e. you can use a power series, but since it's a non-linear first order ordinary differential equation--heh, heh--good luck) and in terms of y(0) = y0, a constant, and y'(0) = y'0, a constant...

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim,

Why do you need 2 initial conditions?

Let F(x,y)=x^2+y^2, and consider the point (0,y0). Since F and dF/dy (where d=partial) are both continuous in some rectangle containing (0,y0), the solution passing through (0,y0) exists and is unique. So y'(0) would (unless it happened to match the solution) overspecify the IVP, and make it unsolvable.
 

ygbsm

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[ QUOTE ]

Actually, I disgree. My discussion of Cantor's work and which infinity is larger was addressed to those who do NOT have a math background. Matching up fingers and toes is hardly esoteric, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed the discussion - did you use the diagonalization argument to show aleph_naught < 2^aleph_naught? That is one of the nicest examples of showing what mathematics is really about and why it is beautiful -- that mathematics is not about calculation, but about thinking. (The difficulty in showing the diagonalizaqtion argument usually arises usually in getting a non-mathematics trained mind to understand that a nonterminating decimal sequence of nines is the same as 1.0.) I can't tell you how many times I've seen people get bogged down in that to the exclusion of the cleverness of Cantor's diagonalization argument. The extension of the notion of cardinaltiy to infinite sets is not as simple, however, as matching fingers on hands. The critical sttudent may well question what is usually handled as a hand waving, it works for finite sets so lets use it for infinite sets (infiunite being defined in the beg-the-question manner through cardinality). There is room for philosophical (though not, perhaps technical) debate on the reasonbleness of an extension of a definition based on intuitions about finite sets to sets on which we do not have the same intuition. But anyway...

What most college graduates think of as mathematics ie, Calculus, ODEs (with the exception of the FTC related theorems, limits, and existence and uniqueness for ODEs) for the most boil down to advanced bookeeping and skills more akin to memorizing multiplication tables (the derivative of this is that, the integral of this is that). Likewise with linear algebra as it's often taught -- most classes reduce it to calculation of eigenvalues etc. as opposed to introducing inner product spaces, etc. As a side observation, some of the people with the greatest difficulty in understanding concepts such as limits have been, in my experience, computer programmers (not computer scientists who must master "Big-O" type concepts) but people who through programming see everything as finite loop caculations. These people think of decimal expansions as an ongoing set of calculations which they handle implicitly as being in finite time. I can't even remember how many engineers I encountered who said that they don't care how anything was proved, that they just wanted to know how to do the calculations.

What you said about explaining complex ideas I believe is true but in a very limited sense. That is, some of the most gifted mathematicians I have met could not and did not explain anything worth a damn. Perhaps it was because their intuitions were informed by a different ability to see geometrically, etc. which was so internalized as to be of little value to others. Others, (perhaps not surprisingly for the greater part foundations people) could give you a wonderful feeling that you truly understood after a lecture -- a feeling that rapidly dissipated after exposure to hard problems. The truth is that one of the frustrating aspects of mathematics is that it requires you to spend a good deal of time by yourself actually thinking. This is in a perverse sense also the source of its rewards. This is as opposed to grinding out solutions to calc problems etc. Few people make good mathematicians who don't have a healthy dose of scepticism and definite show-me inclinations. Most students are unwilling to put in the effort. I've stood in front of large classes of pre-meds/pre business, etc. students who were taking integral calculus, trying to make them understand why limits are interesting. They want to know not if an exponential function dominates a polynomial, but what will be on the quiz. Epsilon, delta proofs, relying heavily on limit concepts are forever beyond them, much less philosophico-historic arguments about why mathematics has to use limits as opposed to infinitessmals.

The ignorance is pervasive. I remember sitting in a graduate macro seminar in a PhD programm in economics that was at that time tied for number one in which the instructor blithley evaluated an integral as zero because it contained a dt^2 term. According to this instructor, dt was small so dt^2 was zero and the integral of f by zero was zero. Having spent an entire semester, carefully extending the reals in a nonstandard analysis/model theory class, I informed him he was in no position to do what he had done. Another mathematics PhD also protested -- but we get the correct derivation was the reply... This instructor likely had had a measure theoretic introduction to probability theory, but he clearly had not learned mathematics, rather he had spent his time grinding out solutions numeric or otherwise and being trained how to grind out solutions rather than to understand what he was really doing. Thus, better questions than calculate the solution to this or that would be even simple constructive proofs such as prove the existence of a function continuous at only one point or construct an everywhere continuous, but nowhere differentiable function, or give three proofs for the Cauchy Schwartz, etc., etc.

Ahh, sorry, rant off. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

js

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[ QUOTE ]
Lux Luthor said:
[ QUOTE ]
js said:
dy/dx = x^2 + y^2.

find y(x) in terms of a finite or infinite number elementary functions of x (i.e. you can use a power series, but since it's a non-linear first order ordinary differential equation--heh, heh--good luck) and in terms of y(0) = y0, a constant, and y'(0) = y'0, a constant...

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim,

Why do you need 2 initial conditions?

Let F(x,y)=x^2+y^2, and consider the point (0,y0). Since F and dF/dy (where d=partial) are both continuous in some rectangle containing (0,y0), the solution passing through (0,y0) exists and is unique. So y'(0) would (unless it happened to match the solution) overspecify the IVP, and make it unsolvable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Specifying both would in general overconstrain things, yes.
 

js

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ybgsm,

Very insightful and cogent reply. Not a rant at all. I completely agree with you. I share your frustration. You know, as a physics TA, I found that there was this ubiquitous idea that a physicist was just a person who knew a bunch of formulas. The final for the first year scientist/engineer level physics class allowed a single sheet of paper to be brought to the exam. It was crazy how much effort students would spend writing down (in incredibly small writing) all sorts of formulas and examples and who knows what else. ! I used to tutor people and they would say "look, no offense or anything, but I don't care about physics. I just want to get a "C" and then I'll never have to think about it again." and I would say "No problem. I get it. And I'm here to tell you that by far the easiest way to get a "C" is to try to understand what is going on here. An hour spent trying to really wrap your mind around these things is worth forty hours of trying to fake your way through it by route and memorization."

Also, I too have known a number of brilliant scientists and mathematicians who could not put things in layperson language, but who were top notch theorists.

Anyway, yes, very very well said, most of what passes for mathematics is just mechanical processes--do this to this to get this--but real mathematics is about thinking and philosophy and so much more. It's a thing of beauty; a monument to the work of geniuses over centuries. We stand on the shoulders of giants.
 

ygbsm

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js

Thanks for your insights. Your statement about trying to understand what's going on really gets to the heart of the matter. I think a dirty secret of some of those who like studying mathematics is that they are by nature in some ways lazy, and loathe to remember masses of details or the specifics of proofs, etc. -- with an understanding of motivating principles you can "reconstruct" things with a scant framework of basic definitions and a little skill and thus avoid that nasty mass of details. To hijack the thread a bit, but in a similar vein I have some similar TA stories about how students think (or don't think). One student came in and showed me how to simplify and expression like sin(2x)/x -- he just cancelled the x's. It was around this time that I began thinking that a lifetime of teaching did not look so attractive.

One of your comments in another thread really captured why I liked mathematics. There is that precision of language and the sheer breathtaking beauty of some of the objects and techniques, but there is also that feeling -- very difficult to describe to someone who has not experienced it -- that is captured by your story of running through the dorms looking for someone to tell about the PDE you had solved. That story has all the elements of why mathemtics can be so rewarding -- the stubborn refusal to give up working on a problem that pays off in that exquisite mopment when you suddenly get the insight on how to solve it and finally that incredible and overwhelming desire to share it once it's done. This feeling is strong at all level of mathematics -- as an undergraduate, I was told about a mathematician who was on a cruise ship during WWII doing a lot of productive work, who proved a big theorem and was so excited he put the proof in a bottle and threw it overboard -- if the ship (and he) never made it back to port, he wanted to have done everything in his power to make sure the world didn't lose the solution.) My personal experience with proofs usually also involved several moments of panicky doubt "but what about" after you think you've done it with accompanying furious checking and rechecking followed by (hopefully) a wave of relief (until the next "what about" moment).

But as you emphasized, it is really at it's heart about understanding. In the beginning doing proofs, I used to spend a lot of time with a pen and paper trying this or that, but I discovered that the the trying this or that, staring at what I had scribbled, etc. was a distraction and would get in the way of really thinking. As I got more experience, I would often try to just sit and think about a problem, purposely not having a pen in hand. Of course, there are usually nasty little details that require grinding through, but for getting to that moment that you describe where you thought you had an hour left in solving the PDE avoiding the pen and paper was helpful, at least for me. Maybe an analogy is to programming -- you can just go immediately to your compter and start typing, flailing away, trying this and that, or you can spend some time thinking before you start typing. Many people I knew would describe getting good ideas in the shower, or while driving.

A cautionary tale in this regard was the story that circulated when I was an undergraduate, that a professor of ours, S. Kakutani (of the fixed point theorem fame) had had his driver's license revoked because one day he drove into a wall while thinking about a problem. Another professor said that he could remember the exact stoplight in town where he solved a big problem that led to a property being named after him (Mostow rigidity).
 

js

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"Mostow rigidity" I love it. Drivers license revoked? Even better. Well, not better, but, you know what I mean.

Yeah, once I was so deeply involved in a partials problem that someone knocked on my door, came in, said "I'm borrowing your vacuum cleaner. OK?", left, and then about an hour later, I came to a bit, and wondered whether I had imagined it, or whether someone really had come in and borrowed my vacuum. Yup. Someone had. It was gone.

Sin(2x)/x = Sin2. Brilliant! Creative. Who would have thought of that? Just get rid of that pesky variable entirely. Then the solution is easy! LOL!
 

js

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Well, I will post the solution to this unless someone objects and needs more time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif

One hint, you do need to specify two initial conditions! I didn't want to say this before when Lux Luthor mentioned it, but I'll say it now, although it's really not much of a hint. Sorry.

How about this: you need to do a variable substitution to make this first order non-linear ordinary differential equation into a second order linear ordinary differential equation.
 

Samoan

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OMG,

I just had a flashback to Engineering School, and no it wasn't a pleasant one.

Out of all the required course in the ChemE program we had one "advanced course". The choices were P Chem, Biochem, or Linear Algebra. I spent about a week and a half in the math option and bolted. Took and passed P Chem on the first try (ask around, that ain't easy), and then took biochem self paced just to do it.

Different brains work different ways...

-F
 

js

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OK. Time's up. Here is the hardest part of the solution, the rest is more or less just a straightforward power series solution.

Let w(x) be a function of x, such that y(x) = - (dw/dx)/w

or for shorthand, y = - w'/w, with prime indicating differentiation with respect to x.

And thus y' = -(w''w - w'w')/w^2

and y^2 = w'w'/w^2.

So substitue these into y^2 = y' - x^2 and you get

w'w'/w^2 = w'w'/w^2 - w''/w - x^2

and the w'w'/w^2 terms on both sides of the equation cancel leaving

0 = -w''/w - x^2

or

w'' + x^2 * w = 0

which is an ordinary linear second order differential equation and which is not (theoretically) hard to solve. It is certainly tedious to work through the power series solution, but it's straightforward, although I couldn't do it now in my current state of rustiness. If anyone really has to see the full blown solution I could find my notes and take a picture of them and post it here.

Sorry if this thread was more or less annoying to anyone.
 

Nitroz

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So now I know who has the username:Nitro. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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