The Ultimate Pocket Knife

Some here already know it. And, some do not.

There simply is just one choice in production pocket knives. The brand is BENCHMADE. They have styles and sizes to suit all tastes. What do I recommend? The Benchmade Model 520 Presidio Pardue. See it under the 'Black Class'.

For those new to the brand, you can quickly get up to speed on all the ins and outs of Benchmade knives at Benchmade Forum. Here you will learn about superior design, advanced engineering, and first rate metallurgical quality.

What is positively the best folding knife locking system available today? The Benchmade AXIS(tm) lock. Better can't be found.

Go to these places only if the finest in production knives is of importance to you. You'll leave the other brands behind. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

L3

Benchmade is ok. They are slow to innovate though, and don't have any assisted openers currently available. They also are sort of lethargic on new blade steels, with only a scattered few models using modern S30V type steels.

There are many choices in knives, of which Benchmade is but one. They make ok knives, at an ok price, but they aren't exactly "cutting edge".

The unique advantage to benchmade knives is the axis lock, which is a little better than a liner lock. Some might call it gimmicky and easier to break, though, but I like it.

The Model 520 sucks imo. The handle isn't G10 and the steel is 154CM. Any handle that is not G10 scales, sucks. And any steel that is not S30V/S60V doesn't hold an edge very well.

By contrast, my Ken Onion Avalanche, a Kershaw knife, is nearly identical in design to the early mini-AFCKs. It has a steel that holds an edge 3x better in testing than any Benchmade (S60V), an advanced assisted opening feature Benchmade still hasn't gotten around to using, and a very nice G10 scale grip handle. All for $90, typically less than Benchmade.

So no, not just one choice, although I do like Benchmades. A knife should be judged on its own merits, and most of Benchmade's line is sort of outdated with the prevalence of modern steels and other features out there.

If you want a well-made, somewhat expensive knife that uses "so 5 years ago" materials and design, Benchmade may be the way to go. But I think they've lost a lot of design talent lately and it shows. Hell, they're even starting to outsource production to Taiwan. Weak.

I'm really not trying to completely slam BM here, I've owned several of them and will continue to buy Benchmade. They have good support and are high-quality knives. I'm just disappointed by their lethargy in using modern steels and assited opening. A wave opener similar to Emerson's knives would be nice too.

Frangible,

While I don't agree with all of your comments, you do make one or two valid points. Benchmade does need some managerial re-adjustment. They are a company way above average but seem, at times, to be resting on their laurels.

There is no question that S30V and S60V are exceptional steels. You would think they would become the standard for a firm such as BM. As for locks, the AXIS is infinitely superior to the liner lock. Liner locks tend to be unstable and unreliable, benefiting mostly the manufacturer.

For all-around excellence, Benchmade knives are the leader to my way of thinking. Opinions, of course, will vary, and that is as it should be.

Thanks for your comments. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

L3

No prob, I enjoy discussing knives. Definately the best tool ever invented by man. Actually I also have a new BM 806D2 on the way, can't wait /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What I don't like most about knives is patents. A lot of unique features are patented, meaning you'll never see a "perfect" knife with all of them /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif So you have to prioritize, and determine what features from what manufacturer are most important to you.

Look at the 630 Skirmish and say that again.
The axis lock is also significantly better than any liner lock. Far less likely to fail and the two springs offer a nearly failure-proof system. You would have to have both springs fail and that's simply not very likely. The lock is also self-adjusting to a large extent. I've had my BM 710 for 5 years, carried it practically everyday, flicked it open more times than I care to count and it still locks up as well as it did the first day. I've NEVER had the lock fail on me. I wish I could say the same for the liner locks that I own.
It has G10 scales, an ATS34 blade (yeah, it's that old.) which has held up admirably and well-made pocket clip.
Old materials, hmm perhaps. Poor materials? No. Not even close.
154CM, ATS34, and even 440C are generally better steels than the AUS8 and AUS6 that is used in the vast majority of Kershaw designs.
Assisted openers are HIGHLY overrated. More gimmick factor and it introduces yet another possible failure part into a locking system that is already failure-prone.
They're fun toys, but I would never rely on one as an EDC.
Great for knifesturbation but that's about it.
I am far more impressed with Kershaw's new frame lock offerings like the Bump. Now that's a knife I wouldn't mind owning.
Kershaw makes some good stuff, but to hold them up as a shining example of righteousness over Benchmade is poor judgement.
Besides, I think you're vastly underestimating Benchmade's designers. Neil Blackwood, Mike Snody, Mel Pardue, McHenry and Williams are all names that have in the past, and will in the future, come up with some amazing designs. I'm sure I'm even forgetting some names. So where you're getting the idea that they've lost a lot of design talent lately, I have no idea.

I'm not a Benchmade junkie or groupie. But I do believe that their preferred locking system is one of the best things ever to befall a folder. I have long since stopped EDC'ing liner locks, simply cause I don't trust them anymore.
My other EDC is a CRKT Grant Hawk DOG. AUS8 steel, which is an ok steel, but not great and a rock-solid locking system. It also has excellent ergonomics.
The locking system was the determining factor in my purchase.
It doesn't have to be S30V or S60V to hold a good edge. That's ridiculous. D2, 154CM, VG-10 and others are all very capable steels but without the gee-whizz factor of the CPM steels. Even AUS8 and 6 are capable and decent for utility since they're very easy to resharpen. Much easier than for instance the CPM steels you're so fond of.

Both companies have their pluses and minuses. Calling Benchmade weak, and comparing with Kershaw, that's not even remotely based in reality.
Although I wouldn't say I agree with L3 either. There is most definitely more than one choice in knife manufacturers.

Bah,
For a production knife? Sebenza

Good input, Erick. You show good sense joined with a touch of class!

L3

I know I'll probably get laughed at and scoffed at for suggesting this, but how about a CASE knife? I use a knife for cutting things and see no need for a locking blade. As far as I know the only need for a locking blade is to keep the blade from closing suddenly as if you were to puncture something. It seems to me that the speciality knives/tactical knives are super expensive. I'd be afraid to EDC one for fear of losing it or having it stolen.

Slipjoints are ok, but I would NEVER feel comfortable EDC'ing one and frankly you can get a decent knife with a good lock for about 50 bucks.
Look for the Benchmade Mini-griptilian for instance. About 50-60 bucks, 440C blade, comfortable handle and the Axis Lock. For a small, relatively cheap knife it's hard to beat. There are other knives in similar price points, but I think the features in the Mini-Grip are better than most other knives in that range. They also come with pocket clips so they stay clipped to your pocket, unlike a CASE that just sorta floats around in your pockets.

Also, the blade can close on you suddenly not just while puncturing something, but even while cutting. All it takes is moving your hand in the wrong direction for a second and suddenly you're bleeding. Not worth the risk in my opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
ErickThakrar said:
Slipjoints are ok, but I would NEVER feel comfortable EDC'ing one and frankly you can get a decent knife with a good lock for about 50 bucks.
Look for the Benchmade Mini-griptilian for instance. About 50-60 bucks, 440C blade, comfortable handle and the Axis Lock. For a small, relatively cheap knife it's hard to beat. There are other knives in similar price points, but I think the features in the Mini-Grip are better than most other knives in that range. They also come with pocket clips so they stay clipped to your pocket, unlike a CASE that just sorta floats around in your pockets.

Also, the blade can close on you suddenly not just while puncturing something, but even while cutting. All it takes is moving your hand in the wrong direction for a second and suddenly you're bleeding. Not worth the risk in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]ErickThakrar, thanks for the advice and pointing out the hazards of a slipjoint (new term for me) style knife. I'm going to check out that Benchmade Mini-griptilian! Thanks a lot,

Dave

I must confess... There are one or two other knife brands which, while lower in level than Benchmade, are worthy of some consideration. One brand that has some interesting and good quality offerings is SOG Specialty Knives. Some of their knives have a neat little lock called the Arc Lock. It is a good, strong, and secure design. Their Flash I and II models feature assisted opening, for those with this inclination. Some of their blades are coated with the excellent material boron carbide.

Knives share some attributes of flashlights. Expensive, high quality knives bring special joy to the heart and tend to exhibit better materials, design, and workmanship. For those who enjoy these qualities, a good knife is a great investment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Enjoy life, for it is a one way trip.

L3

"Ultimate"? Hmm. How about "very good"? I'll keep my Chris Reeve Sebenza over any of the Benchmade knives. For the price I think Benchmade makes very decent knives, but I wouldn't call them the ultimate.

Now I just need a Scott Cook Lochsa, but it isn't a production knife.

-john

Erick:

I said "weak" in reference to outsourcing, not BM in general.

Next, you dismiss the advantages of modern steels. Fact: S30V has been proven to hold an edge 3x better than ATS-34. It's not just a little better, it's three times better.

I also find your comments on the assisted opening humorous. Especially given the fact assisted opening is no more or less of a gimmick than the AXIS lock vs. a liner lock. The AXIS lock has a little more cool factor but the two springs make it less reliable than a liner lock. The same applies to assisted opening and its tortion bar. You are trading reliability for parts that will inevitably fail and more convience-- be it faster opening, or a little easier to use closing mechanism.

Anyway, I like both assisted opening and the AXIS lock. I think both, while they aren't huge technological breakthroughs, are nice little features to have.

Finally, yes, I'm sorry but the Kershaw Avalanche is better than the Benchmade mini-AFCK. I own both. The Kershaw has a significantly better steel, a much better G10 scaling, and assisted opening is just nicer than the thumbhole system. Go to your local knife store and use both if you don't believe me.

Benchmade makes good stuff, but they need to get with the times and start modernizing their designs. Their old designs aren't crap, they're just old. The new "miracle" steels really are that good in a knife blade and represent a large step forward in holding an edge better. Materials, design, and technology are moving forward, and Benchmade is standing still. Let's hope they adapt faster than Maglite.

[ QUOTE ]
Frangible said:Next, you dismiss the advantages of modern steels. Fact: S30V has been proven to hold an edge 3x better than ATS-34. It's not just a little better, it's three times better.

[/ QUOTE ]
What has been "proven" (and by the way, whats your source for this "proof"?) and what really happens in the field are often very different. I've used knives all my life, and ATS-34, 154-CM etc. have seen plenty of use from me, both in other knives and in knives I've made... I use a couple S30V blades as my EDC's, not because of the steel but because they are the designs I wanted, and while its good stuff, I wont disagree, I dont think it is three times better than ATS/154, better yes, but how much better? Not enough that I think it makes a difference as long as the design of the knife itself is sound, and its well made and heat-treated.
Being a steel snob was never my thing, I know good steel from bad, I know how to sharpen, I know how to treat a blade well, and I know what designs and shapes work best for what I want to do... all that evens it out, super steel or not.



[ QUOTE ]
... and assisted opening is just nicer than the thumbhole system.

[/ QUOTE ]
Until that one night you need it desperately, and your thumb shoots off the G-10 and right over or past that tiny little thumb-stud on the Avalanche, because A. its small and B. its barely taller than the G-10, which isnt re-cessed with a thumb guide for it, and instead of a knife all you have is a rather light-weight fistload.
Gimmie the hole anyday, I can open it just as fast and its a more reliable opener to find and stay on under stress. And I have owned both knives in question, and carried thumb-hole and assisted openers.
For utility, for knifesturbation, for looking cool, assisteds are great... need one for more serious things, and they are, frankly, lacking and do not meet the standards of combative/life saving reliability. There are better ways.

Ok, I'm gonna say this as nicely as I can. You're smoking crack on the Axis Lock Vs. Liner Lock issue. The lockup with an Axis Lock is inherently stronger than a Liner Lock can ever be. Period. And only one spring is required to exert enough force on the locking bar to provide a secure lockup. Which means in order for the lock to fail, BOTH springs would have to break. That's simply not very likely. Where is a similar redundancy in the design of the Liner Lock?
Simple. It isn't there. The Liner Lock relies on friction to keep the locking bar in place. All it has to do to fail is slide off or as it has happened on some folders, the liner buckles.

In order for the Axis Lock to fail, one or more things would have to happen.
Both springs would have to fail. Or the locking bar would have to be sheared through.
Neither event is terribly likely.
Calling the Axis Lock a gimmick is just pointless. The assisted opening is a gimmick, the same way automatic knives are gimmicks. Cool for the gadget factor only. They're not quicker to open than just about any other knife. I can open a knife like most any Axis lock knife, just as quickly as most people can locate the thumbstud on their assisted openers or the button on their automatic.
And while I agree that the Avalanche is a fine knife, I would take the stronger Axis Lock over the liner lock anyday. It's a question of mechanics.
Never owned an AFCK since I didn't like the ergonomics of it. But I own both a 710 and a Mini-grip and a couple of other Benchmades and I've never had a problem with either of the two Axis Locks I own. That's in 5 years of daily carry. I've never had a spring break. It's never gotten fouled with lint or anything else.
I've had many Liner Locks fail on me.

As for the steels, I never dismissed that the new "miracle" steels are better. There is no doubt that they are. I was merely dismissing your statement that all other steels are automatically crap. They're not. They've worked well for thousands of users for years and will continue to do so.
Besides, it's kinda moot anyways, since more and more of the Benchmade's are S30V. Several new models have come out with that.
And then there's ofcourse their new model, coming out later this year, The Apparition that has an assisted opening system. It's a liner lock. I won't be buying it.

[ QUOTE ]
Frangible said: any steel that is not S30V/S60V doesn't hold an edge very well.

[/ QUOTE ]You oviously have not used a properly heat treated 1095 or D2 blade by a custom maker.

IMHO the maker controlling the heat treatment is more important than having the latest and greatest steels that happen to in the vogue at the moment.

I'll stick my neck out further. A D2 blade that's been heat treated (rockwell 59-61) by a master knife maker will out perform most any production knife using new steel of any flavor.

[ QUOTE ]

What has been "proven" (and by the way, whats your source for this "proof"?) and what really happens in the field are often very different.

[/ QUOTE ]

There were tests on this done on bladeforums.com

[ QUOTE ]
I've used knives all my life, and ATS-34, 154-CM etc. have seen plenty of use from me, both in other knives and in knives I've made... I use a couple S30V blades as my EDC's, not because of the steel but because they are the designs I wanted, and while its good stuff, I wont disagree, I dont think it is three times better than ATS/154, better yes, but how much better? Not enough that I think it makes a difference as long as the design of the knife itself is sound, and its well made and heat-treated.
Being a steel snob was never my thing, I know good steel from bad, I know how to sharpen, I know how to treat a blade well, and I know what designs and shapes work best for what I want to do... all that evens it out, super steel or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look, ATS-34, or even a solid iron blade is going to get the job done. I've used ATS-34 for the last several years, it's not that it sucks, it's just that the newer steels are better.

I used an Athlon 2100 before buying my P4 3ghz, does that mean the Athlon sucks? No, it just means the P4 is better, and is an upgrade. The same is true for modern steels.

You can still use the Athlon as a computer, and you can still use the ATS-34 blade as a knife, and they'll probably do OK. But the Athlon isn't as fast, and the ATS-34 won't hold an edge as well as the S30Vs. Period.

[ QUOTE ]

Until that one night you need it desperately,

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't be using a 3" pocketknife for self defense. According to the US army a knife must be 6" to be "minimally lethal" because you need a certain amount of penetration to reliably hit blood bearing organs and major veins/arteries. While you can kill someone with a 3" knife, it is a poor choice of a weapon. I'll stick to my Glock handgun /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
and your thumb shoots off the G-10 and right over or past that tiny little thumb-stud on the Avalanche, because A. its small and B. its barely taller than the G-10, which isnt re-cessed with a thumb guide for it, and instead of a knife all you have is a rather light-weight fistload.
Gimmie the hole anyday, I can open it just as fast and its a more reliable opener to find and stay on under stress. And I have owned both knives in question, and carried thumb-hole and assisted openers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holes suck for that too dude. I won't say the thumbstud is any better or worse than the thumb hole on my AFCK. The best opener is the Emerson disk. You simply can't miss it, which I can't say for the thumb stud or hole.

[ QUOTE ]
For utility, for knifesturbation, for looking cool, assisteds are great... need one for more serious things, and they are, frankly, lacking and do not meet the standards of combative/life saving reliability. There are better ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assisted openers have proven to be reliable, so quite frankly your statement about reliability isn't true, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. They use a simple, reliable and effective mechanism. A high quality auto knife is also quite reliable and those have been around for a long time and proven themselves to be dependable.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm gonna say this as nicely as I can. You're smoking crack on the Axis Lock Vs. Liner Lock issue. The lockup with an Axis Lock is inherently stronger than a Liner Lock can ever be. Period. And only one spring is required to exert enough force on the locking bar to provide a secure lockup. Which means in order for the lock to fail, BOTH springs would have to break. That's simply not very likely. Where is a similar redundancy in the design of the Liner Lock?
Simple. It isn't there. The Liner Lock relies on friction to keep the locking bar in place. All it has to do to fail is slide off or as it has happened on some folders, the liner buckles.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, springs are inherantly weaker and thus more prone to failure than the liner lock. As far as the liner lock being weak... I challenge you to prove how many pounds of force it takes to subvert a liner lock. I don't see it happening, personally.

It's a big friggin piece of steel against the blade. That's pretty reliable, and strong. The AXIS lock is cooler, yes, but it has more moving parts, springs under tension, and more points of failure.

[ QUOTE ]
Calling the Axis Lock a gimmick is just pointless. The assisted opening is a gimmick, the same way automatic knives are gimmicks. Cool for the gadget factor only. They're not quicker to open than just about any other knife. I can open a knife like most any Axis lock knife, just as quickly as most people can locate the thumbstud on their assisted openers or the button on their automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

The assisted opening is superior to a manual opening system in speed, period, and you can time it and quantify it. It's also a lot easier to open if you do not have the freedom of movement to "flick" the manual knife open. Further, flicking a manual knife open is not reliable as I have noticed the tension on the blade increases over time and I have to loosen it to reliably "flick" it.

Using the thumbstud or hole to open the blade without flicking it takes more force and more time than an assisted opener.

[ QUOTE ]

As for the steels, I never dismissed that the new "miracle" steels are better. There is no doubt that they are. I was merely dismissing your statement that all other steels are automatically crap. They're not. They've worked well for thousands of users for years and will continue to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap? No. But they're not as good. Bronze was used as a blade for thousands of years, and worked ok. It doesn't mean I'm going to get a bronze blade in my knife though, now does it? No. If I pay $100+ for a knife, I'm going to get the most up-to-date, functional tool I can.

[ QUOTE ]

Besides, it's kinda moot anyways, since more and more of the Benchmade's are S30V. Several new models have come out with that.
And then there's ofcourse their new model, coming out later this year, The Apparition that has an assisted opening system. It's a liner lock. I won't be buying it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And it's a good sign they're using more and more new materials, and I hope they expand this.

My dream knife is an 806 AFCK, made by Benchmade, with an assisted opening feature, S60V steel, and the Emerson wave opener and thumb-disk. Yes, the AXIS lock is part of it, because I do like the AXIS lock.

[ QUOTE ]
You oviously have not used a properly heat treated 1095 or D2 blade by a custom maker.

IMHO the maker controlling the heat treatment is more important than having the latest and greatest steels that happen to in the vogue at the moment.

I'll stick my neck out further. A D2 blade that's been heat treated (rockwell 59-61) by a master knife maker will out perform most any production knife using new steel of any flavor.

[/ QUOTE ]

The forging process and molecular structure is different in the S30V type steels and it is why they hold an edge better regardless of HRC (which is extremely close to Rockwell 59-61 anyway). They do not hold an edge better simply because they are "harder"; they hold an edge better because the structure is different.

BTW, I EDC'd a Benchmade mini-AFCK for ~7 years. Just so you know where I'm coming from. I currently EDC a Kershaw Avalanche, and my roommate EDCs an Emerson mini-Commander. At first I didn't want to even look at the Kershaw, because it wasn't a Benchmade.

Heh, good stuff. Thought the initial post was troll bait, but the subsequent discussion seems fun enough.

Regarding steels, it's most definitely not a "fact" that S30V holds an edge 3x better than ATS-34. It'll usually hold an edge better, but not always. A brief aside on steel properties: For many uses (I know for my day-to-day-uses) the steel's hardnesses is as important as, or more important than, its wear resistance as far as edge retention goes. I do believe S30V has marginal wear resistance advantage over something like ATS-34, or even D-2, and maybe some wear-resistance-only test showed that. But S30V gets that advantage at the cost of (usually) 2 points on the Rc scale vs ATS-34, or up to 4 points versus D-2. For any application that requires a strong edge -- many people's EDC uses will be classified here -- the stronger edge will have an edge retention advantage. This isn't all hypothetical: witness the number of people who say they can't see a performance difference between VG-10 and S30V (VG-10's hardness makes up somewhat for S30V's toughness and wear resistance advantages), or the number of people who say their BG-42 Sebenzas outperform their S30V Sebenzas (again, BG-42's hardness providing the final edge).

In short, gthe fact that many harder-use Benchmade knives have, or eventually get, an M-2 or D-2 option, really nullifies the lack of S30V blades. Not that I have anything against S30V, I think it's great and would like to see more of it in Benchmade's line. But if I were product manager at Benchmade, given that I was already using two steels that probably give me an edge over S30V or at least compete well with it, I'd enter the S30V wars cautiously as well. S30V is great, but don't fall too hard for the hype.

I, too, think assisted opening is a gimmick, but it's fun, and it for sure sells knives. It's hard for me to think of "they don't have any assisted openers" as a negative, but if you love assisted openers, you'll think differently. I do agree that while Kershaw has come a long way since Ken Onion came on board, they're not even in Benchmade's class.

For me personally, if I look at the qualities and strengths of the entire line-up, I believe there's only one other company that matches Benchmade, and that's Spyderco.

Joe

[ QUOTE ]
Frangible said:
There were tests on this done on bladeforums.com

[/ QUOTE ]
By who, the legend (in his own mind) Cliff Stamp? Gimmie a link, dont just cite BFC, a lot happens there, link it.

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't be using a 3" pocketknife for self defense. According to the US army a knife must be 6" to be "minimally lethal" because you need a certain amount of penetration to reliably hit blood bearing organs and major veins/arteries.

[/ QUOTE ]
Since when did the US Army become the prime experts on killing other people at close range? Its not their job. Killing at close range, especially with a knife, means that they have failed and something has gone horribly wrong - they are not a reliable source for this sort of information. Remember these are the people teaching Brazillian Jiu Jitsu (and that alone) as hand-to-hand combat... what a gas.
The 6" number is, pure and simple, bullshit. I'm a long-time student of combatives, including blade-work, and can assure you that the 6" thing is crap. Yes, 6" is better, but 3" or 4" will get the job done. Remember, flesh is soft, it compresses, something like a 4 inch blade will get six inches of penetration because flesh compresses under pressure. You dont need to know jack about knife-work to understand this concept.
Remember, box-cutters are one of the most lethal street weapons around, and they surely dont have 6" of blade.

[ QUOTE ]
Assisted openers have proven to be reliable, so quite frankly your statement about reliability isn't true, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. They use a simple, reliable and effective mechanism. A high quality auto knife is also quite reliable and those have been around for a long time and proven themselves to be dependable.

[/ QUOTE ]
They all gotta be opened once you take it from the pocket, there are blades that dont, and are thus faster and pretty much negate all stud pushing or button diddling... they also dont require their own special set of fine motor skills to be safely opened like an assisted.

Happy smoking.

[ QUOTE ]
By who, the legend (in his own mind) Cliff Stamp? Gimmie a link, dont just cite BFC, a lot happens there, link it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, if it were Cliff, the results would be useful, and probably accurate. Cliff is one of the first people to try to put the brakes on the S30V hype, pointing out the disadvantage of lower hardness. And again, he was right on. S30V is great, but not a final answer for stainless performance -- it's still got a tradeoff.

BTW, thought I'd give my biggest gripe about Benchmade: their lack of imagination on grinds. Benchmade could never come out with something like the Calypso Jr. -- and that is a damning statement.

Joe