Power Supply with Switching Pre-Regulator

MrAl

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Hello folks of CPF,

Here's the start of a power supply which is linear but
has a switching power supply pre-regulator to reduce
heat output of the linear. It also uses fairly common
parts.

Right now it's still in the preliminary stage, but it
shouldnt be long now until it's ready.

Feel free to comment, make suggestions, etc.

Take care,
Al

PowerSupply-w-Sw-PreReg-02.gif
 

tonyb

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Why wouldn't you make it completly switching and off-line so as to avoid using bulky expensive line transformers. Is there some issue with ripple or load reg that would cause you to go with a linear design? MOdern switchers perform quite well- i.e. personal computer supplies uses them exclusively. Heres a 100-240 volt AC input to 12 volts at 1 amp DC output supply that measures only 4"x2"x3/8"
switcher.JPG
 

vicbin

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Yesss..... finally ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Al, just take your time !! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Question, what is the lowest output voltage ? 1.2 V ?


Hi Tony,

This project is planned for CPFer with "limited access" for electronic components and the learning process. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Of course , if you can share how those "isolated" idea can be applied "easily", I think it will be very nice.


Vic
 

MrAl

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Hello again,

Tonyb:
Yes, that would be a good idea, but i have a feeling
it would be a bit more dangerous for most folks on CPF here.
If you'd like to share some design ideas though please
feel free. We'd like isolation from the main line too.

Vic:
I overlooked the fact that this should probably adjust
down to zero volts. I'll have to correct that.
Also, i shouldnt have jumped in with the complex
circuit first...rather, i should have started with the
simplest configuration and worked up. With this in mind,
i'll take a step back and post the more simple circuit
so people can see how simple this can really be...that
was the main idea anyway. Then later, if anyone wants
to upgrade to the more advanced design they can simply
add parts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The LM317 (and similar) already are capable of voltage
regulation and current regulation by itself without all
the extra op amps and voltage regulators, so the first
design should take advantage of that, which was what
was supposed to happen anyway. The upgraded version
will include all the added features.

I hope to have more on this posted today.

Take care,
Al
 

vicbin

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Hi Al,

Yes, I think adjustability below 1 Volt is handy, especially at observing single cell circuit behaviour on drained cell. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I agree with you on starting a simple one and advancing step by step for more features, and I really like the knowledge gained during that process. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif


Pablo,

For voltage measurement just connect as usual, parallel with the PS output and it won't affect it since for measuring volt the resistance is very high.
Even for the el'cheapo DMM, most of them are built based on ICL7106 ic and it needs only 1 pA (typical) and max at 10 pA (pico Amp) to measure voltage. With these pico amp, I don't think it will affects the V-out.

For current, DO NOT put the DMM in series with the PS since it has quite high resistance, especially on low current ma resolution.
Just use the sense resistor (the one connected to and below the load symbol) and measure the voltage drop across that resistor to get the current reading.
If it is 0.1 ohm then it is pretty straight forward using I = V /R formula, if not, you'll need one multiturn potentiometer 1K or 2K parallel with that sense resistor and will need some tuning for the correct reading.

Let's wait for Al to finalise the circuit and see how much resistance he decided for that sense resistor.

Vic
 

PEU

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ok Vic!

Yesterday I ordered samples from maxim and included a pair of 7107, the usually don't ask much, so I hope I'll receive them...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


Pablo
 

vicbin

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Pablo,

I pray for you... ! Geezzz... I have a feeling that both our PS at final stage will looks like twins ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

So you also decided to treat your DMM like me too ? ..he...he... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

S_P1000275.jpg


Al, with all respect, if you find this kind of pic is distracting in this serious discussion, I'll delete it.

Vic
 

MrAl

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Hello again,

Pablo:
As Vic was pointing out,
measuring the output voltage wont affect operation, and
measuring the current output can be accomplished by
measuring the voltage across the sense resistor, and if you
like we can use one of the left over op amp sections to
create a meter amplifier so you can read directly: as 1.000v
on the meter means 1.000A output.

Vic:
Ok then, the more advanced unit will adjust below that, down
to either 0.000 or very close 0.010 volts.

The selection of the sense resistor is a bit of a tradeoff,
i'd like high (1 ohm) resistance but then at 3 amps that eats
up not only power but available voltage also (3 volts), so,
we'll probably end up with half that, 0.5 ohms. Of course i'll
also try 0.1 ohms first and see if the current regulation
stability AND adjustment checks out ok.

Actually i like the humor Vic, and i was going to draw some
cartoon up too but it takes too much time :-(
Eventually perhaps i'll get to it also.
I dont know how this affects loading however, when someone tries
to load the page(s). I like it though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I've always liked
joking around and comedy, and i think your cartoons are really
a good idea. I think it would be fun to start an Electronics
Cartoon thread too, just for laughs. You could be on to
something new.

Back to PS...

I hope to have a very simple version posted today.
This will be very simple to build and very useful
also, and will take advantage of the already present
advantages of the chips.

BTW, Pablo and Vic, i need to know what the max output
you wanted to get... is it 50v or what?
That will be one of the advanced units because
it requires extra parts to get up that high.
I've noticed that the small electrolytics go up
in price quite a bit once you get past about 35v ratings.
Price jump from about $1 to about $3 each.


Take care,
Al
 

PEU

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[ QUOTE ]
MrAl said:
BTW, Pablo and Vic, i need to know what the max output
you wanted to get... is it 50v or what?
That will be one of the advanced units because
it requires extra parts to get up that high.
I've noticed that the small electrolytics go up
in price quite a bit once you get past about 35v ratings.
Price jump from about $1 to about $3 each.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Al / Vic

In my case I have a 30+30 transformer, so that's the limit for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And I guess the magic number should be around 30-40v because as you said prices&problems go quickly up after 40-50v for all the parts.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Pablo
 

vicbin

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Greetings Al & Pablo,

[ QUOTE ]

Ok then, the more advanced unit will adjust below that, down to either 0.000 or very close 0.010 volts.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow !! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif This is better than I expected ! And I'm not complaining ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

So does it need a precision opamp for that ? Although I don't have problem with that (e.g. OP07 opamp is available here), but I'm thinking if other CPFer might have a problem with it. Just a thought.

About the sense resistor selection , if we use low resistance such as 0.1 Ohm , what's the catch ? I mean worst case scenario ?


S_P1000263.jpg



For me, I don't have any problem with high voltage as you can see at the above picture. "But", is it possible let say other CPFer only has access on lower voltage one , say 15VAC out transformer ?

Realistically, at least for me, I think the highest voltage I used in the past was only to simulate car battery 12V, but looking what I got here, I really like to have the one that can put out at least 24 Volt (truck battery) or 30 Volts ..such testing series of leds ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Again, as agreed to make it simple 1st, is it possible that your design to accomodate this difference requirement on the max. V out "without" major re-designing. e.g.: only change some resistor or reference ?

Another questions about the transformer and the rectifier part :

- Does it require a centre tapped transformer ? I got both though...psstt..only $2 a pop /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

- In the circuit drawing at the rectifier part I see you use 2 types, two (1N5402) for high amp connected to switcher, the other two (1N4003) for the opamp supply. My rectifier is the one at top of left transformer ? It is rated 1000V at 35 Amps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif , should be fine right ?

Hey .... its cost me only $40 cents ! I know it is overkill, but for that price, I can not bear not to buy it ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks & regards,
Vic
 

MrAl

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Hello again,

The simplest circuit is now here...

PowerSupply-w-Sw-PreReg-03.GIF



Vic:
It doesnt really need a precision op amp, although that would be nice,
but it has to be fast. I'd like even faster than LF347 but that might do.
OP07 will be too slow. OP27 if you feel like spending the money.
Now you see what i've been dreaming about, and how many many options
there are for a circuit like this. So many choices, it's hard to
decide /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Worst case for 0.1 ohm is that the response to a current overload
step is too slow or rings too much. Im shooting for 1us max with
maybe 10% overload. I'll take 2us, but i think 100us is too slow.
Also as i was saying, a left over section of the op amp can be used
to scale the voltage meter to read directly in Amps with something like
two additional standard resistors.

Transformer doesnt have to be center tapped, but for the advanced
unit some means of supplying a negative bias has to be employed, so
that means either center tapped or an additional wall wart or small
transformer (100ma only).

The main reason for the simpler design is so that people who dont
want to have to connect lots of parts can still build one and get
very good performance and versatility. This means two parts lists
more than anything else, but the connections are a little bit
different too for voltage mode and current mode operation.
See the schematic for a better explanation.

The reason for two types of rectifier diodes is mainly because the
negative supply only has to supply maybe 100ma or less while the
positive supply has to provide maybe 3 amps. This means smaller
diodes can be used for the negative supply, but of course this
isnt mandatory so if you want to use a bridge rect that's rated
for the max positive supply (or more) that's ok too.
Note however that if you use a single winding transformer
(no center tap) you need four 1N5402 diodes (as well as
another transformer).


Take care,
Al
 

PEU

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Hi!

adding to what I said, I want to start from almost 0v to 30v

I don't understand the 2 different loads, this means that if I want to limit the current supplied to a circuit I have to choose a diferent output? or I'm totally wrong? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Pablo
 

MrAl

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Hi again,

Pablo:
This 'simplest' version (001) only adjusts from 1.2v up.
The more advanced version will adjust from 0.00v and up.

Yes, this 'simplest' version has the load applied to
a different place in the circuit depending on whether or
not you want to run constant current or constant voltage
mode. Again, the more advanced version will have the load
connected the same for either and will have both simultaneously,
so that the current is also limited by the set point you
choose, not by the device itself (note that the simple
version 001 current limit is set by the device itself,
unless you're operating in constant current mode).

The more advanced version will go from 0.00 up to
whatever your building for, and current limit and set point
from probably around 1ma up to full current.

Does this make more sense?

The simplest version (001) is there to minimize
parts count yet still get some of the benefits of
doing this in the first place, that's all.

Vic:
I guess you want to go 0 to 30v too then?

0-30v seems like a reasonable range.


Take care,
Al
 

PEU

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[ QUOTE ]
The more advanced version will go from 0.00 up to
whatever your building for, and current limit and set point
from probably around 1ma up to full current.

Does this make more sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

YES!

ren-n-stimpy.gif


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Pablo
 

vicbin

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Hi Al,

Ok, since you asked for it, here are my wish lists /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

1. Adj. 0 - 30 Volt (with 0.1 volt or better resolution)
2. Adj. 0 - 3 Amp (with 1 ma or better resolution) ... stage I
3. Adj. 0 - 5 Amp (same as above) .................. stage II
4. Output voltage that will not overshoot during switching off or on of the PS main supply (during off caused by collapsing negative supply)
5. Low ripple , dunno how low yet, to be tested with various cap and/or LC filter as you describe OR double caps & inductors

Planning to separate switcher and linear board (modular), stage I will be 3 Amp switcher and stage II 5 Amp switcher. Linear part already 5 Amp capable.

Another bell & whistles : /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

1. Constant Current mode indicator (either LED and/or switchable mini buzzer ) just in case it got shorted by accident or trouble shooting circuit without turning our head to see if the CC mode was activated ..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

"Enhancements" which I'm planning to do it my self later :

2. Coarse and Fine (10% of coarse value) potentiometer for both Volt & Amp adjusment
3. Digital meter with BIG 7 seg. LED display (size 3.5 X 2.5 cm / digit) for Volt & Amp
4. Ripple meter using bar graph IC -> LM3914 indicator utilizing your ripple detect circuit, wondering if this is necessary once we got a low ripple, if the ripple is consistent then I don't need it
5. High temperature activated low noise & long life DC fan (Panaflo), just ON or OFF only, no variable speed. Adjustable temperature threshold.
6. Output disconnect & connect switch, possibly driven by semiconductor based (MOSFET) rather than mechanical swicth or relay. (need to discuss with you "later" for this switch to avoid disrupting the regulation loop)

These enhancements will added step by step if I got time for it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

S_P1000270.jpg


Ok, did I miss anything ? Hope this wish list is not too much ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Vic
 

MrAl

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Hello again,

Pablo:
Funny cartoon /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Vic:
0-30 volt should be possible with high enough input and HV devices.
0-5 amp can only be had with a higher power switcher and the 5 amp linear reg.

I'll keep an eye on the negative supply so it stays active longer
than the positive supply.

We'll have to see what kind of ripple we get, but it should be pretty
good because we'll have the linear reg on the output.

Im going to build my switcher separate too...for one thing, the switcher
itself will be very handy to have for some regulation needs too, even
without the linear on the output.

Constant current move indicator shouldnt be a problem.

Take care,
Al
 

vicbin

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Hi Al,

Great, you've thought of the neg supply ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Im going to build my switcher separate too...for one thing, the switcher itself will be very handy to have for some regulation needs too, even without the linear on the output.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that you're planning to make the switcher part detachable and as independent PS ? That is great idea !

Vic
 
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