RayOVac I-C3 Batteries and Charger

RayOVac has introduced its I-C3 system consisting of "smart" NiMh AA and AAA cells and a 15 minute charger.

Underdog was kind enough to loan me his charger and AA batteries for the "Charger Comparison" evaluation. Thanks Underdog.

I charged up my Titanium 2400 test cells for the purpose of that comparison and it did a good job. However, this is not the charger system to purchase to charge regular NiMh or NiCd batteries.

The "In Cell Charge Control" (I-C3) system has NiMh batteries with a device built in that allows for rapid charging, and a charger that detects the I-C3 cells. There is a two and a four cell charger available. The charger I used was the four cell one.

The I-C3 AA batteries are rated at 2000 mAh and seem to be a bit bigger in diameter (about 0.55") than Duracell Alkaline cells (about 0.51"), but they are slightly smaller than Energizer 2300 mAh cells (about 0.56'), and Titanium 2400 mAh cells (about 0.56"). I tried them in a variety of lights and while snug in an older Mini Mag, they still slipped right in and out. They also fit in radio's and CD players I had around the house.

The charger will accommodate AA and AAA cells of NiMh, NiCd, and I-C3 batteries. When charging non I-C3 cells, it is a timed charger that will bring depleted cells up to full charge overnight. I tested at 12 hours and got good results. It goes into a trickle charge mode when the main charge has finished. You are cautioned to remove the cells from the charger if you unplug it.

I will add a caution that it is not wise to leave the cells on the charger for an extended amount of time.

There are two green lights on the charger and four charging slots. It appears that each channel is independent, because you can charge individual batteries. There is one green light for two channels.

The system comes to life when using I-C3 batteries. I noticed that the spring holding the batteries in the charger is quite stiff. I had minor difficulty putting the batteries in the charger, and by the time I had finished putting them in, the fan kicked on and away it went. A short while later, I realized that only one side was charging. Back to the instruction manual I went and discovered this:

"1. Place battery in charging pocket.
2. Plug in the charger."

I tried it and found that it works.

I found that I could get the charger to kick in without following the instructions, but sometimes it would not work properly. When I put the cells in first and then plugged the charger in, it worked properly every time. For consistent results, I would suggest following the instructions.

When I first heard of this system, I had visions of cells only partially charged, getting hot enough to fry eggs on them, and a greatly reduced cycle life. Boy was I wrong…

RayOVac advertises 1000 cycles. That is about twice as many as normal NiMh cells. I have no way of checking this, but if it is true that is wonderful news.

I checked the temperature while charging. If you charge a single battery, the temperature gets up to 85 F. If you charge a pair of batteries, the temperature gets up to 90 F. If you charge 4 batteries, the temperature gets up to 90 F. No combination I tried saw battery temperatures above 90 F. This is not hot at all.

The final consideration was charge capacity. How much charge can they really get into the battery in 15 minutes…

Here is the set up:

Ah = Amp Hours
Wh = Watt Hours
M = Minutes

These were brand new batteries, so I cycled them 4 times for a break in. I then charged them at a 500 mA rate on the BC-900 charger. This served as my control test. I tested at 1 amp and 2 amps.

I should point out that the I-C3 cells did not allow the refresh function to work in the BC-900 charger. It would start off charging then when it got to full charge, it would stop and just register Full. I would then start over and select discharge. They would go through a discharge and charge, and then stop. I tried to refresh the I-C3 batteries several times and could not get them to do that. I would speculate that this has something to do with the circuit in the cells.

The second cycle of testing was done with the cells charged on the I-C3 charger. RayOVac advertises 15 minutes, but it actually took 15 minutes 48 seconds for one cell, 16 minutes 33 seconds for two cells, and 16 minutes 38 seconds for four cells. That's close enough to 15 minutes for me.

I noticed that the charge capacity was not as good as my control test. I thought about this and decided that I would do another round of testing. This time I charged the cells in the I-C3 charger (for 16 minutes when it signaled end of fast charge), then I let the cells trickle charge for an hour. This worked out very well. They had almost the same capacity as the control group.

I then decided to do one more round of testing. This time I charged for 16 minutes, let things cool down for 5 minutes, then charged again. The second charge went for 6 minutes. The results of this procedure was in some cases better than the control group.

Here is the graph for the 1 amp testing:



Note that the testing at 1 amp showed these 2000 mAh I-C3 batteries to have around 1700 mAh of capacity, however I did a test on the BC-900 at 0.5 amps and they showed 2070 mAh of capacity. RayOVac does not list what discharge current they used to come up with their capacity value, but it looks like 0.5 amps is pretty close.

Here is the graph for the 2 amp testing:



Note that the voltage held up pretty well and the capacity (Ah) at this load was very close to the same as that at the 1 amp load.

Conclusions:

If you need batteries fast, this is the system for you. If you have an extra 6 minutes after the initial charge, you will end up with fully charged batteries.

I believe RayOVac has, or is coming out with, a car adapter so you can use this system in your car. There is a caution about making sure the charger is not too hot or cold. I understand it will not turn on if it is outside its temperature limits. RayOVac does not state what those limits are, but does state that if the unit happens to be outside those limits you should bring it inside so it can settle in at room temperature.

This system also does a good job of charging non I-C3 batteries. It just takes "overnight."

This system may be a bit expensive at the initial purchase, but if it gets close to the advertised 1000 cycles, it will pay for itself several times over.

I think RayOVac has a real winner with the I-C3 system.

Anyone else have any comments to add?

Tom

Comments? Sure. There have been many threads about this battery system before. Pelu tested the system, and stated they would be good to around 5a discharge before the cell's built in pressure sensing valve with open the circuit rendering the cells useless until the batteries cool down enough for the valve to complete the circuit again. I think he did preliminary testing on capacity too, and found them to be close to around 1900-2000ma for 1a loads???

Don't have enough time to post all the prior thread links, but numerous reports of 'very hot' batteries at end of charge have been noted here and on the RC forums. Can't remember specifically which batteries they were, but I think I once linked to some CPF member that said these Rayovac cells exhibited weird behavior in that they increased(I know it seems unlikely) in voltage to around 1.55v?, up to 2hours or so after having completed charging and being removed from the charger, but eventually got down to normal voltage readings /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

You can see my thread in this forum on the 'battle of 15min chargers. I'll add now that inaddition to the 4? 15min chargers I had listed in that thread, we now have the Sakar 8.5min charger, with supposedly special batteries to go with it. And a recent addition to the Sakar website shows a new 4 cell 15min charger that charges independently for all 4. IIRC, the Rayoc LED displays for 2 cells at a time, even if all 4 channels are independent, correct? Uniross with their LCD real-time display is still unique among the 'consumer' grade chargers.

I have tried to get info from both Sakar (try getting into their toll-free #, LOL, just like calling the phone company or computer tech support /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif ) and Uniross,
France. So far, no responses. I'm waiting a few more days, and will try to obtain either of these 15min chargers, or the 8.5min when available.

Eeks SilverFox, you along with others post varying sizes for AA cell diameters, some not in agreement with others results. Hmm, this is somewhat disconcerting, in that you can't give other people advice, when there are differing reports of cell diameters for the same cells. What to do about this? Well, it's not like I'm not already spending too much time on this and other threads, when I should be working on some more 'important' thread posts...but.

How about I send you a digital LCD caliper to play with, that I was thinking of buying, along with some batteries (maybe I should do this right away while you have other AA's available to measure? ). Then, because most of these are not diffinitive, given chance of errors in reading, I was thinking I might as well go well beyond the accuracy required, to eliminate as much as possible operator error.

Here we go, lots of sites selling these inexpensive (but not cheap), and maybe not the most supremely accurate Chinese made measuring devices. I'm hesistant to provide the link, cause I did this for the M*g bi-pin switch assembly, and then someone (damn Ginseng /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) much later, finally got around to noticing it, and did a massive GB on these. Now if I link to these, please people don't go buy all of them before I get my order in damn it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

On 2nd thought, this Mitutoyo 317-711-30 looks sweet, wonder what the reserve on it is... regular price is well over $100.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=92085&item=3871559086&rd=1

Check here for a good deal on some digital calipers: 6" DIGITAL CALIPERS

Tom, that's a great writeup you did! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

When I first came to CPF, I was a staunch opponent of NiMH cells, mainly because of the self-discharge and the very long recharge times. You couldn't leave them on the charger forever (unlike NiCd), but as soon as they came off the charger, they started discharging! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

I knew myself, and understood that I wouldn't have the foresight to start a batch o' cells charging at just the right time for them to be ready exactly when I needed them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Rayovac IC3 is what brought me into the NiMH world! The 15 minute charge meant that I could keep the cells off the charger and still give 'em a quick refresh when ready to use them... even if it was a last minute type of thing! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Been using them for about a year (VERY rough estimate) and couldn't be happier. So far they've exceeded my expectations, and then some!

Nice write up SilverFox, you are producing some excellent information. Have you tried using the IC3's in your Vanson BC-1HU to see if it would discharge and then charge them?

Hello Udaman,

I believe Peter was discussing a Varta charger with higher capacity batteries. The Varta and RayOVac chargers should be the same (same company) but there could be some minor differences. I am sure Peter will chime in here at some time.

I have also read reports of high cell temperatures. In most cases it was quantified by "It felt hot in my hand." The few temperature measurements given were not repeatable during subsequent runs. The first charge seems to leave the cells hotter than subsequent charges. I broke these cells in at a lower rate and probably missed the initial hot spike. I followed the temperature very close because I was convinced that they had to get hot. That was not the case.

I did not observe any signs of voltage increase after taking the cells off the charger.

You are correct. The charger has 1 light per two charging slots and handles single cells without problems.

Thanks for the offer of the calipers, however I already have several.

I mentioned the cell diameter because of a recent thread about cells not fitting in a light. I believe the standard diameter for AA cells is 0.5590551" (14.2 mm). I was only pointing out that when I first looked at the I-C3 batteries, the appeared to be larger than other cells. A few quick measurements revealed that was an illusion.

The diameter actually varies around the cell as well as from top to bottom. There is a seam in the shrink-wrap. When I measure including the shrink-wrap overlap I get 0.561". When I exclude the seam I get 0.558" at the top, 0.554" at the middle and 0.557" at the black band on the bottom. Of course these measurements are only averaged over 4 cells. All in all, the diameter is about 0.55". They fit quite well in my older Mini Mag battery tube that is 0.565" in diameter. There is also no problem with the newer Mini Mag battery tubes. They are a bit bigger (0.570").

When you get the 8 minute charger I would be happy to subject it to a battery of tests... Does the Uniross charger use the same technology?

Tom

Hello Mike,

The only problem with the Vanson is that it takes more than 15 minutes... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tom

OK, I jump in .-)

The new version charger I was mentioning lately is the newer version:


Unfortunately again only one LED for two slots and I did not see any possibility to add another LED (that means I could not identify enough about the electronics, maybe people who are more up to date in electronics could do that).

[ QUOTE ]
SilverFox said:The "In Cell Charge Control" (I-C3) system has NiMh batteries with a device built in that allows for rapid charging,

[/ QUOTE ]

The device is simply a pressure switch. It interrupts the connection to the 'plus' contact when the cell's internal pressure comes to a specific limit.
This 'device' does not allow any higher charging currents on its own, it just gives a relyable (?) possibility to determine end of charge.

This system was discussed at least two decades before (for NiCd cells). I liked it from the beginning.
It has several benefits:
Monitoring the pressure includes other factors like temperature.
Both electrodes could be almost the same size, saving space and getting a higher capacity (on the other hand you loose same space for the presure switch).
Usual cells have to have unequal electrodes to handle the overcharge situation. As much as I remember this would only give some 2-3%.

[ QUOTE ]

The charger will accommodate AA and AAA cells of NiMh, NiCd, and I-C3 batteries. When charging non I-C3 cells, it is a timed charger that will bring depleted cells up to full charge overnight. I tested at 12 hours and got good results. It goes into a trickle charge mode when the main charge has finished. You are cautioned to remove the cells from the charger if you unplug it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm wondering if there are more different models of the first generation 4 slot charger available.
Mine definitively charges non I-C3 cells with constant current infinitely. It is not timed. Did you check the time?
(To be shure: a 'timed charger' is a charger which switches off at a pre defined time).

I know there are different wall warts available. The first ones came with a good and very nice switching power supply (which I use for other chargers, too), newer ones are said to have a simpler one with a transformer.

[ QUOTE ]
I noticed that the spring holding the batteries in the charger is quite stiff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that. Finally a charger with good contacts. I had the charger dropping and not loosing the cells .-)
After inserting them, I always press them in to be shure that they are recognized as I-C3 cells.


[ QUOTE ]
RayOVac advertises 1000 cycles.

[/ QUOTE ] we will see...
Temperature is not always the same. I watched it carefully for the new 2.3Ah cells. The first cycles they got pretty hot and are in the range you mention now. It may be that after longer storage they will get hot the first cycle again (that means higher internal resistance), but it is only a guess.



[ QUOTE ]
I should point out that the I-C3 cells did not allow the refresh function to work in the BC-900 charger.

[/ QUOTE ] Of course, almost every intelligent charger will recognize the temp shutoff as an error.
It is also interesting that the time, the switch needs to close again, is quite different in between cells.
When the pressure is raised by fast charging (hydrogen), it should go down in seconds after the current is off. When it is triggered more by heat, it may be open for a longer time (now tests yet).

[ QUOTE ]
This time I charged the cells in the I-C3 charger (for 16 minutes when it signaled end of fast charge), then I let the cells trickle charge for an hour. This worked out very well.

[/ QUOTE ]
It also seems that there are more paramters to consider. Sometimes the cells switch off when full, sometimes earlier.
I have no idea about what causes the different behaviour.

[ QUOTE ]
I then decided to do one more round of testing. This time I charged for 16 minutes, let things cool down for 5 minutes, then charged again. The second charge went for 6 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]
A method to kill the cells in a pretty short time? What did you do? pressure was going down (both temp and eating up the hydrogen), but they are almost fully charged.
Then you put in again 7.5A for 6 minutes. That means 0.75 Ah. But there was only 'space' for 0.15-0.2Ah, so you overcharged the cells significantly.
(charge efficiency regarding current is quite high and maybe above 90%, losses are in the voltage).
And if the designed the cells like the said so some time ago (with the equal sized electrodes) they suffer more from overcharging.
The pressure treshold was choosen with a 'normal' charge in mind. That means that the cell is a little bit warm and there is already a higher pressure before it comes to the end of charge.

My discharge tests were at ~0.5A and gave 1.85-1.9Ah, but sometimes a pair of cells dropped to 1.7Ah (both together) which indicates the incomplete charging' phenomenon.

This my two (euro) cents worth. Will be in India the next 4+ weeks and give an report how the charger and 2.3Ah cells performed. It will be my only AAA/AA cells charger, as it charges other 1.7Ah cells in about 50 minutes.

About high current abilities: If the (newer) cells could stand 8.5A charging current, they could do so while discharging (other way round is not necessarly true). This does nothing say about how their capacity drops at higher loads, as this is independant from the internal resistance (even when a connection between this two attributes is often mentioned)

Hello Peter,

I was able to confirm the timed charge. I put a non I-C3 cell in, the green light came on. 16 hours later, the green light went off.

I did not measure the charge current and do not know if it is steady or if it tapers off towards the end of the charge. If it stays steady, then I did try to cram 0.75 amps in a 0.2 amp space. I was surprised that there was little indication of overcharge shown by temperature rise. The "double" charge started with cells at 78 F and they rose up to 83 F at charge termination. I would think that if there was a significant overcharge, they would heat up beyond that.

At any rate, if you have the time I would favor the extra hour of trickle charge. However, if you have no time and "need" the extra 10 minutes of run time, a double charge might be tempting.

You are getting 1.9 Ah from a 2.3 Ah cell. That ratio on a 2.0 Ah cell works out to 1.65 Ah. I am showing 1.68 Ah to 1.7 Ah which is pretty close. I wonder if the Varta I-C3 2300 mAh cells are available here, or if RayOVac will release 2300 mAh cells in the future.

Your trip to India should give the system a real work out. Be sure to let us know what you think after a month of field use.

Tom

Update-prepost /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif After frustration of calling 6 times to the Uniross USA automated phone tree, I selected an extension for a real person, that shocked me by immediately answering the phone! And with an apparent comprehension level greater than that of the 6yr old childlike buffoons I usually have to suffer through, woohoo!

Not an engineer, so take with large grain of salt; claims the Uniross 15min charger will charge any "15min capable" NiMH cells, ie. the charger circuitry will test for lower resistance cells and charge at either the 15min rate or 1hr rate accordingly. Uniross is newly setup in the USA and is not widely distributed yet but they are working on that (at least he's not telling me that I can do a Google search and buy them anywhere like that brain dead fool at Sakar), that some CompUSA stores have the Uniross product, your guess as good as mine (he will research this for me, get back to me via e-mail) which, and that CompUSA does not have it on the website as yet. I will order one in the next day or 2, along with set of AAA's and AA's supposedly of lower resistance/15min charge capability (higher current capability on discharge /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif ?) Perhaps these will prove to be better cells than Sanyo 2100ma, the plot thickens. If you have a Flash plug-in you can see animated graphic of the vertically stacked LCD charger at this Uniross link:
www.uniross.com/UK/info/pages/chargeur_sprint.htm
/end rant, initial part /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
SilverFox said:
Hello Udaman,

I believe Peter was discussing a Varta charger with higher capacity batteries. The Varta and RayOVac chargers should be the same (same company) but there could be some minor differences. I am sure Peter will chime in here at some time.

I have also read reports of high cell temperatures. In most cases it was quantified by "It felt hot in my hand." The few temperature measurements given were not repeatable during subsequent runs. The first charge seems to leave the cells hotter than subsequent charges. I broke these cells in at a lower rate and probably missed the initial hot spike. I followed the temperature very close because I was convinced that they had to get hot. That was not the case.

I did not observe any signs of voltage increase after taking the cells off the charger.

You are correct. The charger has 1 light per two charging slots and handles single cells without problems.

Thanks for the offer of the calipers, however I already have several.

I mentioned the cell diameter because of a recent thread about cells not fitting in a light. I believe the standard diameter for AA cells is 0.5590551" (14.2 mm). I was only pointing out that when I first looked at the I-C3 batteries, the appeared to be larger than other cells. A few quick measurements revealed that was an illusion.

The diameter actually varies around the cell as well as from top to bottom. There is a seam in the shrink-wrap. When I measure including the shrink-wrap overlap I get 0.561". When I exclude the seam I get 0.558" at the top, 0.554" at the middle and 0.557" at the black band on the bottom. Of course these measurements are only averaged over 4 cells. All in all, the diameter is about 0.55". They fit quite well in my older Mini Mag battery tube that is 0.565" in diameter. There is also no problem with the newer Mini Mag battery tubes. They are a bit bigger (0.570").

When you get the 8 minute charger I would be happy to subject it to a battery of tests... Does the Uniross charger use the same technology?

Tom

[/ QUOTE ]


Hello SilverFox, (sorry for length of reply, but speed necessitates this, spent well over 60-minutes on this + doing searches).

Yes, from memory of last summer I am aware of most of your points. However, the Rayovac threads are there for searching on CPF(so many threads I need to try and address otherwise I'd post the links and quotes) and PeLu did not mention Varta (pretty sure he obtained a Rayovac from a USA source?). Bottom line, most times you get what you pay for, there are some good under $100 chargers out there, but it takes the mighty investigative powers of SilverFox and CPF members like Doug S, RC forums, and all; to figure which ones are worthy. Same would apply to the RC battery chargers, except I hope they have more sophisticated charging algorithms, especially those high-end Orbit or Schultz chargers. If I ever run across post/thread that mentions the problem with the Triton's software getting screwed up by poor quality computer power supply, I'll be sure and bookmark it for later reference.

Sakar Int, makes the 8.5min charger which I started a thread about in this forum, but after more than 1/2 dozen e-mails to various customer support people with NO replies in a week, pretty much the same for Uniross I'm done playing this game. Sakar is a branded name I am vaguely familiar with as providing low cost, and also relatively low quality products made in China (most consumer electronics including batteries come from China now, the range of quality from excellent to bad is great) However, like with Uniross, both companies are like pulling teeth trying to reach above the lowest level minions of customer support. Pulling hair out, I have tried to get above the low level support personnel who seem to have an IQ fully 1/2 of mine, very frustrating. Kind of like dealing with the non-responsive 4sevens on Tweek's GB of LG 2400ma 18650 cells, people that waste my time like 4sevens and his cohorts at batteryspace.com won't get my attention again. There are other sources, options (Sony's recently announced 2550ma 18650's for example). I will get the Uniross but your guess is as good as mine to what various specious claims of 'proprietary' charging systems are in use.

"Aldofo" at Sakar (after 30min wait on the phone to even get a live person) argued with me endlessly stating stupid and erroneous information like he knew his *** from a hole in the ground! I was told both the new 15min independent 4 cell Sakar charger was available, as is the 2-cell only (4 cell at a later date) 8.5min charger, that both have specific cells that work with these, that all I needed to do was do a Google search to be able to find a retailer I could buy them from, LOL. Adolfo measured the supposed (he claims part # for these is "BP-8.5" and "BP-15" respectively) 8.5min cells claiming that they were the same diameter as any of their AA NiMH's. After 10min. on hold, he came back with this claim after using a metal ruler to get "about 1/2inch in diameter" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif

I will try phone calls tomorrow to see if I can't get some more information from someone in management above these minions, but sometimes they just won't let you get past them. I think I'm out of luck on these. Company bureaucracies, typical heads up their ***** /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

M*gAA diameter bodies are just one flashlight, and we know that M*g bodies of differing cell sizes can vary, and yes we can consider than mass manufactured AA's would have an acceptable variation in diameter range. So perhaps it is an exercise in futility to state battery diameters with any meaningful data. However there is this "battery matrix" going on with the 8AA-2D adapters of Willie Hunt/Skip Langan, that state certain batteries will fit 4 across into a D-cell. Only problem is those plastic wrappers get applied at high speed in manufacture, we are talking very tight tolerances between fitting and not fitting, mere thousandths of an inch one way or another, and the fact that not all D-cell M*glites are exactly the same diameter.

I think it was Doug S, or maybe someone else who stated what the tolerance range was for AA sizes, current 2500ma cells and the like are right at the upper limit of the tolerance size. And who is to say that these standards must be followed exactly, is there a governing standards body, that can penalize a company for making larger than accepted size AA's?

The seam would seem (no pun) to be the maximum diameter, but you initial posts had only 2 figure resolution, so I was unaware of your capabilities. However, the CPB1650ma AA were 1st reported by Mike of CBP to be the same 0.55 diameter as the rest of the AA cells on his site, and note he still has not changed that because RC users don't have such dire space considerations http://www.unipros.com/cbpsite/loosecells.asp?session_id=209010

However, when I e-mailed Mike at CBP about how both Dukester and js had measured the initial shipments for the CBP1650ma's, they both got muchlarger diameter measurements of exactly 0.565in. Mike says he zero'd his own calipers to re-measure and got 0.56in, or more specifically 0.599in. How can this be? 14.20mm diameter cells will fit most D-cell M*g bodies 4 across, but it has been said that the Rayovac IC3 cells cannot fit 4 across.

How can we accurately measure, or is it possible to verify what the diameter is of these cells; if there are significant variations from one batch to another/different graphics/thicknesses for plastic wrappers, but they are still within accepted tolerances of size? Can we explain the difference in measurement of js & Dukester vs CBP's own measurements to operator error, how they read/looked at/used the calipers, or just lack of enough accuracy in the measurement tool?

Using a digital micrometer instead makes it pretty much difficult, if not impossible, to get a measurement that deviates enough from exact standards, given the level or resolution they can measure at one micron... 0.00005in/0.001mm and could be used to calibrate your 0.001in accuracy vernier calipers if you did not have a calibration block or 1in/25.5mm or larger.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=92085&item=3870864591&rd=1

But when others are getting differences of 0.006in (or mm measures differing in the 0.02-0.05? range---can't recall exactly), this makes all the difference in the world as to whether or not a battery will fit lose/tightly or not at all /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif. I was just hoping if you had all these batteries on hand now doing a test round, you could post this data as most accurately as possible with the speed of digital micrometer.

References:
MrAl's thread,
NiMH Batteries -- None living up to rating!

I thought PeLu was referring to the transformer, but no, it's the whole setup branded as Varta post#513296---which appears to be the same as the Rayovac, details this and capacity measured, instantaneous sag under ~5A load post#519837 :

Re: Rayovac 15 minute charger ..... final verdict?

Re: Question about Rayovac 15 minute charger????

  #696115 - 09/23/04 09:40 AM

PeLu, did you used the transformer that came with the charger? And you purchase the charger in North America?

PeLu
Flashaholic*


Reged: 07/26/01
Posts: 1324
Loc: Linz, Austria

Re: Question about Rayovac 15 minute charger???? [Re: CalgaryGuy]
      #697088 - 09/24/04 01:46 AM

Yes and no.
I did use the stock one and I bought it labeled as Varta, but it is the same as sold in the US except for the plug (comparing them from the housing). And Rayovac says so on their website that the 4 AA charger has a wide input range.

Maybe the have changed it in the meanwhile?

I like the wall wart as it is the smallest 15V / 4.5A one I have.


======

If it hasn't been said enough before /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif to SilverFox for compiling all of this data on batteries and chargers.

Hello Udaman,

I am glad that it is you on the phone with those people... I am not sure I would have the patience you are displaying...

There is at least two differences in the Varta charger system. First the batteries are 2300 mAh vs the RayOVac 2000 mAh. Second the Varta charger does not shut off when charging non I-C3 batteries. The RayOVac charger shuts off after 16 hours. There may be more differences, I don't know.

It is always difficult to fit a large package in a small place. If the diameter was only off a couple of thousands, I would think a brake hone could be utilized to bore out the flashlight body enough to accommodate the larger package. If there are differences in the bore, several flashlights may have to be purchased to find one with a large enough bore to accept the battery package.

Good luck dealing with the Sakar and Uniross people.

Tom

You guys are the experts. But I did e-mail Ray o Vac on the length of time required to charge other batteries and the reply I got was 16 hours. Without any details on types of batteries. I also wanted to know how long it would take to charge NICAD batteries. But didn't bother to ask again or try it myself.

Hello Steven,

The RayOVac charger is timed when non I-C3 batteries are charged in it. It shuts off after 16 hours and goes into trickle mode.

It did a good job on my Titanium 2400 mAh cells after only 12 hours. This would suggest a charge rate of around 200 mA. When you put your NiCd cells on to charge, check the mAh rating, divide it by 200, then add another hour or so. That should give you an idea of charge time. NiCd's will tolerate a bit of over charge, so you can just leave them on for the full 16 hours too.

Tom

Does anyone have an idea how the charger detects IC3 cells?

The bottom of the cell holder has two metal prongs. I think the black band on the bottom side of the cells are resistors that touch the prongs. Measuring the black band resistance I find approximately 3k ohm resistence on most of my cells.

What have you got in mind 4sevens? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
haveblue said:
The bottom of the cell holder has two metal prongs. I think the black band on the bottom side of the cells are resistors that touch the prongs. Measuring the black band resistance I find approximately 3k ohm resistence on most of my cells.

What have you got in mind 4sevens? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

When I called Rayovac they asked me if those black bands were damaged. That would lead me to believe they are the key, just as haveblue stated.

The initial reason I called Rayovac was because supposedly the IC3 batteries can be charged in any nimh battery charger and charge in whatever time the charger is rated for.

I tried them in an Energizer 30 minute charger to see what would happen. After 30 minutes most (not all) the IC3 batteries would cause the Energizer chanel led's to blink indicating a bad cell. The fact is they were not damaged because the Rayovac charger does not indicate they are after charging them. Along with the fact that they get a full charge and work fine.

Hello Silver Fox,

Thanks for your reply, and all the good work and information, I enjoyed reading all this.

I do realize what you said:
"However, this is not the charger system to purchase to charge regular NiMh or NiCd batteries" and "It did a good job on my Titanium 2400 mAh cells after only 12 hours".

But did it charge them up to 2400mAh? Just wondering, even though I may hardly ever use the charger for this purpose. I wouldn't think it somehow only charge all batteries to 2000mAh. One of the questions I asked Ray O vac was can the older 15 minute charger charger charge the newer I-C3 2300mAh batteries. And they said the usual about unplugging and plugging back in. Then it should take about 5 minutes.

Thanks
Steven

If memory serves, I think the IC3 cells have some sort of pressure-sensitive switch that disconnects the cell from the charging circuit briefly as pressure inside the cell builds at the end of a charge cycle. The IC3 charger is designed to detect this temporary disconnect, and it's the signal for the charger to switch into trickle mode plus light the green "full" LED... but in a non-IC3 charger, such as the Energizer 30 minute, that temporary disconnect probably makes the cell look like a dud to the charger, so it goes into its blinking LED trouble indicator.

Just going from memory on this... if someone is ambitious enough to search CPF for IC3 threads dating back a year or so, there should be at least one thread discussing this feature in detail, as well as how to make the IC3 charger do a 15 minute charge on non-IC3 cells, which at the time stirred up quite a bit of controversy! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

I bought the IC3 2mth's ago and love it! I got the two cell
wall model ,cause A) it was cheaper and, B) since it take just
15 min's i don't really mind waiting.

My experience has been better then i thought possible.
The unit with 2000 mh batt's run longer then my guitar tech's two high end charger's. The ic3 run's longer then
the sanyo 2300mh cell's in a very high drain wireless guitar
transmitter, and scott has a 2400 nimh that run's short of the ic3's by a few min's.

for me, I don't need a lot of fancy stuff in the charger (I know other's may though) so i love the once the got cycled a few times' they are really do as advertised. my friend's energizer 15 min unit is also shorter running and i think those are 2200-2300 mh?
I strongly recommend them,a simple effective product that's idiot proof, and seem to out preform many hi end system's. VDG

Hello Steven,

At the rates I am testing at, the best I have gotten from the Titanium 2400 cells is 1997 mA of capacity. When I charged the same cells on the I-C3 charger and pulled them off after 12 hours, they tested at 1935 mA. That is pretty much a "full" charge.

Tom