HID light for shooting at night

[JohnGalway]

Hi folks,

I'm not happy with the LED lights I've been trying for shooting foxes at night. I can see sheep clearly at 280 yards and a bit beyond, but have difficulty seeing rabbits. Not seen a fox yet!

So I'm trying to dig up info on HID lights.

I see Lightforce do a range of scope mounted HID lights, but they're very, very expensive. The 35W seems to be the one to go for with a colour temp of around 4300k, if I understand correctly.

I have been Googling and only see lights from China with unlisted colour temps, or ones from 6000k to 12000k.

Are there other cost friendly options available to me for a scope mounted HID, which I can use to shoot out to 300 meters? I already have a Thrunite TN31 for a spotter.

Many thanks,

John

 

[AnAppleSnail]

The only almost-scope-mountable light that lets you see so far to shoot is a Maxabeam. It uses an aspheric lens with a short arc to give ridiculous reach. But it's still about the size of a (futuristic laser) rifle. Most rifle-mounted lights have about a 1 inch reflector. That just won't reach, unless you use one of Saabluster's newer Deft EDCs. But then any bit of fog downrange would explode in sparkling light, preventing vision anyway.
I hear lots of people asking what light to use to shoot things 300-500 yards out at night. I don't know why this is suddenly a need (since it wasn't possible to have such a light 50 years ago), and I'm not sure that it's a good idea to shoot under those conditions.
What do you use now? How well does it work? What needs fixed, and what will you sacrifice for those changes? And how do you ensure you won't shoot the neighbor's dog?

 

[CouldUseALight]

This is a really tough application.

Some of the priciest lights out there are well-designed throwy HIDs in compact factors, but in this market the military is the intended audience, and kit is priced appropriately.

The dream option might be the Polarion CSWL, "night reaper," which is priced like the tank accessory it is.

The only HIDs I know that approach the form factor you'd want are the FireFox HIDs; these are very spilly as well as throwy because the reflectors are not the science project the Polarion's are. The FF3 seems to be about 4500K.

Rabbits or coyotes at night are wayyy too tough for me; I'd imagine foxes are even harder!

 

[JohnGalway]

I have mostly used Lightforce 170 strikers with a 100W bulb. Powered by a 28 amp sealed lead acid battery in a backpack. Which looks like this below, do not view if you don't want to see dead foxes:

Link.

As you can see in the photo I also have a TN31 which I use as my spotter, this works fine for that job.

The weight of the 28amp battery has become a problem, so what I had been looking to do was to replace the Lightforce & Battery with an LED scope mounted light for taking the shot. That has not worked out to my satisfaction.

Now, I am turning my attention to a scope mounted HID light (lots of light, lower power draw), powered by a much smaller battery, as it won't be on long, just to take the shot. The TN31 will be doing the heavy lifting as it will be on most of the night for spotting.

As I mentioned Lightforce already do a range of scope mounted lights for this work, but the price is crazy.

I also do not wish to buy Li-ion battery packs as I've seen examples of them exploding, they're also horrendously expensive. I do use protected Li-ion single cells in my torches.

That aside.....

There is nothing dangerous about shooting at night once certain safety requirements are met. I must ensure there is always an appropriate and safe backstop behind the fox, to soak up a bullet safely if I miss my fox. I have shot foxes previously out to 300 yards at night, but the light used has to be effective farther out than that so I can see what is behind my fox is safe. I need a proper type of light, I guess we're back to colour temperature/tint here, so I can pick out my fox from the background vegetation. One of the most important aspects of shooting at night is positively identifying my target, never, ever, ever shoot "at eyes", always positively ID the animal by it's body. There are always clues as to what an animal might be before positive ID by sight, gait, eye colouration and position, but only a fool shoots "at eyes", that's how people end up shooting the neighbours dog.

I shoot a .223 effectively on fox to 300 yards, so that is and has been my need for a long time. Foxes aren't dumb, and some will be content to sit out at a distance and watch me. I farm sheep for a living and they are partial to eating my lambs. I don't wish to shoot farther right now, but if I do I'll change up calibre. I know people who have shot foxes past 500 yards at night - properly ranged using high quality laser range finders, not guessed or paced. Technology moves on, we're much better equipped now than people were 50 years ago.

Rabbits are easy to shoot! I've never shot a coyote but watched many DVD's on shooting them in daylight, we don't have them in Ireland.

 

[Echo63]

The only almost-scope-mountable light that lets you see so far to shoot is a Maxabeam. It uses an aspheric lens with a short arc to give ridiculous reach. But it's still about the size of a (futuristic laser) rifle.

The Maxabeam isn't really scope mountable - nor does it have an Aspheric, it's a conventional reflector with a Short Arc bulb
There is a version that can be mounted on a Browning M2.

The battery is pretty big and heavy too - a bit bigger and a similar size to a 7ah 12v SLA

It will also probably cost double what the Hid Lightforces will

It certainly will reach out though
I overuse this pic - but it does really illustrate the lights incredible reach
1000m and in a fairly high ambient light environment

That's a 140mm reflector, the whole unit is 280mm long - and according to my friend who hunts foxes "is way too bright, and will spook them"

JohnGalway - have you thought of using a smaller battery with your lightforce ? And only flicking it on when you need to ?
Or converting your current light to HID and using a smaller battery ?

 

[JohnGalway]

Fairly sure I replied to this but maybe I pressed the wrong button!

I might have to consider a smaller battery. But, the advanatage of HID is smaller power draw for more light equals smaller battery. I currently use a 100W bulb in the LF and it draws a fair amount of juice.

Emailed the Chinese company who were advertising scope mounted Hid spotlights on Alibaba, got some prices, now asking for colour temperature info, no reply yet. Fingers, toes, legs eyes all crossed. I didn't mention what temperature would or wouldn't suit me, just in case like...

Too bright can spook foxes. But, clever use of the spill/halo and keeping the spot off them works well. Probably the best accessory I bought for my LF was a dimmer switch control.

 

[TEEJ]

The HID's would be too large for rifle mounting.

Try a Deerelight NightMaster Aspheric. The spot of light is small, but it projects very far.

The new Crelant that takes an aspheric head might work too, but its a tad heavier at the muzzle...but the spot of light is huge compered to the Deerelight. This can be a reasonable compromise.

The DEFT EDC mentioned above would work range-wise, and the light itself is VERY SMALL, except that mine could not handle recoil, and the spot is REALLY small. The green glow in the lens was also inappropriate for tactical use.

As you have a spotting light, an aspheric for the aim light makes sense as you CAN keep it to the side and sweep it in on them, etc. (They project a picture of the LED onto the target...very sharp boundaries)

 

[JohnGalway]

The HIDs aren't too large. I have had a Lightforce 170 Striker on my scope for the past 6 years, they are as common as flies on smelly brown stuff over here. A plastic collar with a rail on it is attached tot he scope and the Lightforce slides onto the rail as needed. The 240 blitz would be too big though, that's too big for handheld, pain in the *** of a thing.

I own a Crelant 7g5cs with a neutral tint LED, doesn't do the job. It gives a wonderfully rich sight picture, but lacks the raw illuminating power to "see" targets clear enough at the range I regularly shoot to.

I have on loan a Nightmaster 800, which is the Dereelight, doesn't do the job reliably. I could see sheep clearly at 280 yards a couple of nights ago, but due to the tint of the LED I missed two out of three rabbits I shot at under 200 meters. With a .223 that's just hopeless. Those rabbits were within 30 minutes of looking at the sheep on similar land.

I talked to Saabluster before about LED's, he didn't think what I wanted yet exists in the LED marketplace.

 

[TEEJ]

Does the Crelant and the Deerelight have the aspheric head?

On another issue...perhaps the scope needs a minimum lux on target to allow you to aim properly.

Most lights are rated for throw to 0.25 lux. This is about like moonlight, and I at least can't aim with that low a light level.



Do you know the lux needed for your scope?

If you do, we can back calculate and see if at least theoretically, its doable.

If a scope better at low light shooting would work, then that's another route to consider.




If the polycarb HID (lightforce, etc) will work though, perhaps that's your answer.

I am curious if you have the aspheric heads for both of those LED lights though?

 

[JohnGalway]

Yeah both the Nightmaster and the Crelant have the Aspherical heads (convex lenses, the crelant is called a Collimator I think).

You've lost me regarding the lux needed for my scope to be honest. I have a Nightforce 5.5-22x56 NXS set at 8x magnification most of the time as 8x is the optimal balance for letting light through/magnification level. Doesn't get any brighter below 8x really, but will get less bright above 8x.

The ordinary LF with 100W bulb lets me shoot to my self imposed limit of 300 meters (once it's a good night for visibility that is).

 

[Toster]

Subscribed to this thread!!....with all the new lights I can't wait to get a good coyote spotting light!

 

[JohnGalway]

Toster, Are you looking for a light JUST to spot them, or to spot AND shoot? What are your requirements, do you shoot on foot or from a vehicle?




The Chinese HID I was following up is a non runner, their colour temp is 6000k. The lightforce site says above 5000k creates glare, not clarity, and that 4300k (k for kelvins, not thousands) resembles a sunny day.

Currently talking to an Australian bloke about a HID conversion kit for my existing LF Striker. Looking and sounding good so far, I may take the plunge (again...) and see how it goes with a small battery for taking the shot.

 

[TEEJ]

Do you know the cd or lux at 1 meter rating for the Striker?

If you do, then we can use that to try to duplicate that output range.


OK, I just looked at Lightforce's site, and the 170 with 100 watt xenophot is rated at 1 lux at 650 m.

W/o doing the math, the LED's are just about doing a quarter of that, in that at ~ 650 m, they'd be closer to 0.25 lux.

If you NEED the 170's level of performance to get the shot off, then it or an HID, etc, will be your objective.



So, yeah...I think you are going to be stuck with a larger, heavier solution.

 

[Toster]

Looking for spotting and a good shooting light (gun mounted) in red. Green would be a nice interchangeable bulb if I ever went hog hunting. I am kind of new to night calling/spotting but I was thinking of a good gun mounted light, and maybe even a more powerful handheld for the spotter. In Nebraska about the only requirement is that we cannot use lights plugged in to a vehicle. They have to be "mobile" but a backpack full of Lipo cells could be in order!

 

[JohnGalway]

TEEJ, I reckon so for the time being, I've just ordered a HID conversion kit from that Australian guy so I'll see how that pans out. It's a 30W with a h3 35W globe I think. Seller reckons I'll get more distance and a bit whiter light than I used to get from my LF with 100W bulb.

I was looking at a 55w Hid kit from another seller but they said it's six times brighter than the 100W incandesant bulb, and that may be just too much light, I didn't really like the sound of that as it's probably too bright for my application.

So, if this pans out, I will be making progress, if it doesn't I may retreat to a quiet corner and have a cry, lol.

 

[BVH]

55 Watt ballasts are typically 43 to 46 watts output to the lamp so equal to about a 135 Watt Incan. If you're going to convert, I'd not go with anything less powerful than a 55 watt kit. 30 Watts is pretty weak for an HID. You may end up undriving the lamp which makes for a very unimpressive result.

Your eye is going to perceive increased brightness due to the whiter color of the HID lamp but in comparing apples to apples, your eye needs to see at least 4 times the amount of light to appear only 2 times brighter. And 2 times brighter is not really much of an increase.

 

[JohnGalway]

Uh oh, well this is bought and paid for so I'll see how it goes. The colour temperature is 4300k, which LF mention on their site.

 

[TEEJ]

Plan B is to bait the area with phosphorescent bait that will make all the foxes glow in the dark.

 

[JohnGalway]

We often discussed setting up PIR sensors around bait. Have it rigged up to power a light over the bait, nothing severe, just enough to light up bait and critter.

Still, hunting where we do, dragging a lot of gear around the countryside tends to remain a pipedream lol.

 

[Norm]

Have you seen this thread: Ryobi 35W, 18V HID ?

Norm