LaCrosse BC-9009 / BC-900 - The Melt-Downs Continue...

CM said:

So you are saying that there is no such thing as a high quality at a low price? Your "...cheap sure is a good indicator of poor quality" is a logical fallacy. For example, I buy Hondas and Toyotas. They're inexpensive. But they not of poor quality.

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Your Honda and Toyota are made in either Japan or the US. Did he say, "...cheap sure is a good indicator of poor quality?" OK, I'll say it. Let's quit being politically correct: replace the word "cheap" with the word "China" and that'll clear up any confusion on the semantics.

Turbo DV8 said:

Your Honda and Toyota are made in either Japan or the US. Did he say, "...cheap sure is a good indicator of poor quality?" OK, I'll say it. Let's quit being politically correct: replace the word "cheap" with the word "China" and that'll clear up any confusion on the semantics.

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If you look around your home you will probably find that an astonishing proportion of the goods you own were made in China. Here's a few of mine:

Stove top coffee maker: stainless steel, well finished, much better quality than more expansive Italian made units (the handle dropped off one of my expensive Italian units).
Kitchen scales: 2 units, well made, lasted years.
Bathroom scales: 1 unit, well made, lasted years.
IPods: 2, one is 4 years old.
PC: Most of my PC is made in China.
DAB radios: 2 units, 1 is 6 years old, t'other a few years old.

I could continue.

The truth is that what matters is the quality control, and the machines used. The good Chinese lights no doubt are made using CNC. Chinese goods are cheap due to low labour costs not because they are bad. American (and UK) goods are expensive due to high labour costs. America can produce good and poor quality goods, as can China.

China has some issues with consumer and worker protection, though the people who watered down milk with a toxin leading to the death of babies were executed.

If you want a country that produces consistently low quality goods, I would look towards India.

CM said:

So you are saying that there is no such thing as a high quality at a low price?

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I'm not saying that at all. But I am saying that if you cut the price, then all things being equal you will be sacrificing quality. Sure, there will be the odd exception, but a few exceptions do not disprove a trend.

Your "...cheap sure is a good indicator of poor quality" is a logical fallacy. For example, I buy Hondas and Toyotas. They're inexpensive. But they not of poor quality. I've taken a Honda Accord to redline more often than I care to remember. It has lasted over 250k miles before someone rammed into it. Poor quality? Nope, I don't think so.

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I drive Hondas too, and I know they have the best quality and reliability of almost any automobile out there. They may be inexpensive, but they are not cheap. I observed that there were much lower prices available on equivalent GM models, and there you have a totally different quality picture. They may have tried to improve a bit recently, but historically there is a very good reason for GM's financial woes, and it is not the recession.

Let's not pick fights here, huh? You know that quality costs money, and I know that quality costs money. Quality takes care in design, good process in manufacturing, and attention to detail. None of those come cheap.

Mr Happy said:

Let's not pick fights here, huh? You know that quality costs money, and I know that quality costs money. Quality takes care in design, good process in manufacturing, and attention to detail. None of those come cheap.

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Labour is very cheap in China. And they are skilled at investing in machinery to allow mass production with high quality.

Mr Happy said:

To put it another way, the $35 cost of the BC-9009 is about the same as a tank of gas that lasts a week, or lunch for two at a moderate restaurant. Pocket change in other words. I do honestly wonder why people expect an item that costs the equivalent of pocket change to contain high quality complex electronics, to have advanced features, and to survive years of use? It really doesn't add up.

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I would not describe that as cheap, far from it. Cheap is the £2.50 (about $4) including shipping Panasonic AA/AAA charger that I picked up as an emergency backup. In the UK the BC-9009 charger is quite expensive compared to bog standard ones that most people buy/use. It is far more expensive than good quality electronic scales with LCD displays, if you want a comparison.

Unfortunately price is a weak indicator of quality. It can indicate a high mark up, high distribution costs, high labour costs, high quality parts, very skilled labour, high consumer demand and/or low competition, research and development costs, and so on. Your dinner for two example requires expensive American labour.

No doubt some Chinese goods are rubbish.

I would have thought that the only way to know in the case of that charger is for someone knowledgeable to take one apart, and examine the insides. Apologies if you have done so, and drawn conclusions, and I missed your post.

LeifUK said:

I would not describe that as cheap, far from it. Cheap is the £2.50 (about $4) including shipping Panasonic AA/AAA charger that I picked up as an emergency backup...

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You did well with that charger, but I bet that isn't the normal price, it was a special bargain, right?

I'm in the UK at the moment, and out of interest I looked at the chargers available. Tesco had practically no rechargeables but bins full of alkalines, and Argos had only Energizer or some no-name brand. The basic Energizer Quattro charger is £17.99 ($25), the Energizer Rapide charger (3-6 hour charging) is £27.99 ($39) and the Energizer 1 hour charger is £32.99 ($46).

I see electronic kitchen scales from £9.99 in the bargain bin up to about £30, with the good quality ones being in the £20-£30 range.

I would have thought that the only way to know in the case of that charger is for someone knowledgeable to take one apart, and examine the insides. Apologies if you have done so, and drawn conclusions, and I missed your post.

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I would have thought the fact they keep melting and self destructing inside is evidence enough...? (But yes, an electronic engineer has taken one of the old BC-900 models apart and has identified several significant design problems. You can find some old posts on the forum about how to modify a BC-900 to remedy the worst of the failings.)

Mr Happy said:

You did well with that charger, but I bet that isn't the normal price, it was a special bargain, right?

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I suspect they bought a load of them at a bargain price. So yes, that is an unusually low price. And the brand name suggests that it is not rubbish, unless I am mistaken.

Mr Happy said:

I'm in the UK at the moment, and out of interest I looked at the chargers available. Tesco had practically no rechargeables but bins full of alkalines, and Argos had only Energizer or some no-name brand. The basic Energizer Quattro charger is £17.99 ($25), the Energizer Rapide charger (3-6 hour charging) is £27.99 ($39) and the Energizer 1 hour charger is £32.99 ($46).

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The price you pay very much depends on where you buy. If you buy items such as batteries, especially CR123a and rechargeables, from the high street, you get well and truly ripped off because people tend not to think much before buying them. For example, the per unit price for a CR123a is £9 from a well known high street store, and even the well known Play.com charge £6, but it is not hard to find branded (Panasonic) cells for ~£1.50 each online (especially if you buy 10)

I bought a Panasonic BQ-392 for £12 including shipping online, and it is not hard to find it at that sort of price. The Energiser Rapide is not hard to find at ~£15 with free batteries:

http://shop.eurobatteries.com/energizer-rapide-charger-2xaaa-batteries-free-p-3214.html

Here is (I think) the same charger as the Lacrosse in the UK:

http://www.batterylogic.co.uk/technoline/technoline-i-charger.asp

£42 ~ US$60.

You also have to be careful comparing UK and US prices. You have lower distribution costs due to a larger populace speaking (mostly) English.

Mr Happy said:

I see electronic kitchen scales from £9.99 in the bargain bin up to about £30, with the good quality ones being in the £20-£30 range.

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Depends on the shop, but that's not far off what I see.

Mr Happy said:

I would have thought the fact they keep melting and self destructing inside is evidence enough...? (But yes, an electronic engineer has taken one of the old BC-900 models apart and has identified several significant design problems. You can find some old posts on the forum about how to modify a BC-900 to remedy the worst of the failings.)

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Thanks for the information. I think we can agree that the BC-900 is sub-standard. From what I have heard on this forum, I'd not touch it with the proverbial barge pole.

As an aside, what would you recommend as a good charger at a modest price, and a good charger with features as per the Lacrosse? I suspect that 'fancy' chargers are only worth buying if you use a large number of batteries (or recharge often). But I am open to alternative opinions.

LeifUK said:

As an aside, what would you recommend as a good charger at a modest price, and a good charger with features as per the Lacrosse? I suspect that 'fancy' chargers are only worth buying if you use a large number of batteries (or recharge often). But I am open to alternative opinions.

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It's very difficult to recommend a good charger at a modest price. The market has a severe paucity of such chargers. On the occasions that some have been produced (e.g. the Duracell Power Gauge or Mobile chargers, sold in Europe with different names though) they have been discontinued from sale after barely a year or two.

The ideal charger would have four independent charging channels, individual automatic charge termination per channel, a 1-2 hour charging time, a design that avoids excess heat generation and keeps the batteries cool, a discharge feature, and a worldwide power supply. I have not found a charger that exactly meets all these requirements. Even if you drop features like the discharge function or worldwide power supply, or accept a slower charge rate, it is still difficult. One of the closest matches would be the Maha C401FS, but you'll never find that in the high street.

For a good charger with features like the LaCrosse you would have to select the Maha C9000. And to be honest, even if you don't use all the features it may be worth the investment. It is solidly engineered, Maha has excellent product support, and it charges batteries well. Even if you don't use the advanced features it does a very good job of the basics. Compared to the rip-off prices of the simple chargers, the C9000 does actually justify its price.

Mr Happy said:

One of the closest matches would be the Maha C401FS, but you'll never find that in the high street.

For a good charger with features like the LaCrosse you would have to select the Maha C9000. And to be honest, even if you don't use all the features it may be worth the investment. It is solidly engineered, Maha has excellent product support, and it charges batteries well. Even if you don't use the advanced features it does a very good job of the basics. Compared to the rip-off prices of the simple chargers, the C9000 does actually justify its price.

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Thanks.

CM said:

So you are saying that there is no such thing as a high quality at a low price? Your "...cheap sure is a good indicator of poor quality" is a logical fallacy. For example, I buy Hondas and Toyotas. They're inexpensive. But they not of poor quality. I've taken a Honda Accord to redline more often than I care to remember. It has lasted over 250k miles before someone rammed into it. Poor quality? Nope, I don't think so.

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Except that BC900 would equal a Yugo more than Toyota/Honda.
The point is that *IN GENERAL* cheaper products have *LOWER QUALITY* even though some cheap products may function well for years. The problem is that as the tend to cheaper/lower quality keeps going further and further at some point the longevity/safety take a big hit.

I was simply wondering if BC900 is being pushed too far using cheaper/lower quality components, that is all.

By comparison, we all know Honda and Toyota are well aware of their brand and quality image, so they are not going down this road. They are actually the exact opposite example of companies that kept and increased quality of their components to maintain their brand image.

I just got a bc-9009 for christmas! I still asked for one despite the meltdowns. Currently, I'm running 4 batteries on a 1000/500ma refresh cycle. When all four cells were charging, i could definitely feel some warmth around the base of this thing. However, I happened to have an old laptop fan assembly and and an extra 5V power supply, so i rigged this up:



now, even when charging all 4 cells at 1A, the charger stays cool!

I guess my main concern is the fact that i'm going to be working quite a bit in this next week and i'm worried about leaving the charger unattended. Currently, it's sitting on a laminated Steelcase desktop with plenty of clearance from anything flammable and the power supply is plugged into my UPS. Do you guys think i'm okay to leave this alone for extended periods of time (say 8-12hrs)???

My BC-9009 overheated yesterday upon the first use. I used the Lacrosse branded 4 AA 2600 maH batteries supplied. In the test mode, the 4 batteries each topped off to full charge using the 1000ma charge rate in approx. 10 minutes at which point the charger switched to discharge at the 500ma rate. In about 5 hours the first battery reached the 100% discharge threshold (0.90v) and this channel switched back to charge although it showed only 250ma rate and this was quite variable. Within several minutes I felt a hot spot through the bottom at this battery position. Within 10 minutes and before the other batteries could reach their respective discharge terminations, the button at this first battery position had melted down and sunk.

Interestingly, the charger still retains full function. Perhaps if I hadn't intervened so quickly the failure may have been more progressive. So this isn't a irreversable failure of a component - but something physically incorrect in this particular charger by design or build.

Update:

I repeated the test cycle above. Again, the same channel [2] reached the discharge threshold and the charger switched into charge mode, charging at indicated apprx 250ma. The electronics at that position reacted and overheated in the same manner. After about 10 minutes the LCD began to flash between "full" and the subnormal charge current. Then position 1 switched over to charge. The channel 1 button proceeded to meltdown in the same manner and that channel reached the same end point after about 10 minutes. Then positions 3 & 4 switched to charge but, after a brief time at 250ma, these went to the proper 1000ma charge current. Channels 1 & 2 after the thermal event appear to shut down or stabilize.


Update 2:

Even with buttons 1 and 2 melted down the charger still functions. I next decided to try the test cycle again, selecting down to the 700ma charge rate. All 4 channels successfully made the complete round trip. So, with no big surprise, my thermal problem appears to be related to the 1000ma charge rate, and maybe using a completely discharged battery.

joeparker54 said:

I still asked for one despite the meltdowns.

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Unbelievable. You have to be kidding me - despite all the information that demonstrates that the BC-9009 charger doesn't have any relevant safety certifications, CPF members discussing how the circuitry isn't adequate, recent photos showing damage, and assertions from the Underwriters Laboratories that the AC adapter is a fake and never underwent 3rd party safety testing and is illegally using the UL mark, you still feel the need to support this company and be a part of the PROBLEM and the reason they have been able to get away with this for so many years.

Add to that Amazon has pulled the product and the US Consumer Product Safety Commission opened an investigation.

Here is another NEW STORY from a user who had a Christmas Day meltdown!

These things aren't safe and a fan is not going to protect you. All of the safety mechanisms that prevent overheating and overcharging aren't working and the unit is pumping 1,000 mA to a full battery. I'm not an electrical guy but I understand that the battery can't handle any more charge and the only way to dissipate it is to create heat - lots of it. It doesn't take long for these units to melt - only 2 hours from start of charge for mine.

So even if you don't burn down your house you will wreck your batteries as the trickle charge mode won't engage.

I apologize if this might sound harsh but I've got a baby on the way in a few weeks and my charger almost burned my house down just before Christmas so I'm not taking this lightly and won't rest until something is done to remove this threat. I also want to show that someone doesn't need to die before this charger gets recalled.
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So if you want to be part of the solution here are a few easy steps you can do. No one is going to thank you but we can make our homes dramatically safer with a few simple actions:

1 - Call the US Consumer Product Safety Commission. 1-800-638-1772. Tell them that you had a meltdown (if you had one) or that you purchased a battery charger and your research tells you that it is defective and a fire hazard and you would like them to investigate and remove it from the marketplace. You can also file a report online here.

2 - Call your retailer (the one who sold it to you) and tell them the product is unsafe and you would like a refund and for them to no longer carry the product. Tell them the AC adapter has fake UL certifications and this is illegal. Retailers are being tricked too and need to be educated. They will listen to their customers.

If you bought it online and the company asks for feedback (Amazon) then add your voice - don't recommend the product, leave negative feedback, educate future consumers, and provide links to sources (like CPF).

3 - Call La Crosse and tell them you would like them to recall the product as it is not safe and has fake UL certifications.
608-782-1610. Here is the direct line to the VP and National Sales Manager, **** Norford. 608-782-1982 x 146

Tell them you will keep educating consumers and retailers until such a time that they fix their product and get proper 3rd party certification. They currently have a European CE mark but even if it looks official it is a self-assessed certification and no 3rd party testing was done.

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If you have any other ideas how we can stop La Crosse from selling this unsafe product, reply to this forum. Together we CAN make a difference. We all know we can. Now lets do it.

jeober said:

My BC-9009 overheated yesterday upon the first use. I used the 4 AA 2600 maH as supplied.

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jeober - thanks for sharing. Please take photos.

I was thinking the same thing - take some video of the destruction and post it online but have my defective units promised to US Consumer Product Safety Commission.

Please do your part by contacting them and sharing your experience. They take a long time to move but once they do they will probably make the biggest difference.

Also feel free to cross-post on my blog to make sure your story gets shared and consumers can be warned.

I updated my previous post. I witnessed the failure twice before my eyes with the charger in my hands. This had nothing to do with the user abuse, wrong batteries, EMC issues, or operating ambient.

The charger will go back to Amazon.

Good, spend the extra bit and please get a Maha. You will love it man.:twothumbs

ShawnLam said:

I just experienced a melt-down...

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jeober said:

My BC-9009 overheated yesterday upon the first use...

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ShawnLam and jeober,

Please VOTE and then add your 'Meltdown' Details to:

Thanks!

ShawnLam said:

...Result: Amazon is no longer selling the BC-9009 directly and lists it as "Product Under Review". Unfortunately marketplace sellers can still sell the charger. So I'm calling this a "small victory"...

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It appears that the 'Review Period' has ended and Amazon.Com is now selling the BC-9009 directly again @ $39.99. :sigh:

Well i just hope people heed the words of wisdom and know what there getting into when they order the charger.

The first post has been updated with hyperlinks to nine more melt-down reports. They involved a total of eleven chargers.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com ... post3193233
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While reviewing the most recent melt-down reports on Amazon, I noted this somewhat misinformed reply that's most notable for how subtly it misleads:

jbat says:

Did you report this to LaCrosse? I don't understand this. I was just on The Candlepower forum and the moderator had stated that he hadn't heard of a meltdown in years and assumed the problem was fixed. Mine works fine. However on any charger I always calculate how much time the batteries take to charge and pull them out if it's past the time needed. I don't think any charger is safe as they all can miss the "signal" that the battery is fully charged and overcharge the battery. Also the heat sensors may be defective since all charges in this class have a built in overheat sensor.

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