Alternate view -OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

[NewBie]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

The four die 10W device

Remember, OSRAM's OSTAR parts are also measured with the die at 25C for a very short blip in time:

"1)Brightness groups are tested at a current pulse duration of 25*ms and a tolerance of ±*11%. Condition for luminous intensity measurement acc. to CIE127 condition A"

While cold, their efficiency is 25 lm/W @ 700mA, and it drops from here.

Typical lumens for their *four* die part is 280 lumens (when it is cold, during the first 1/40th of a second, it falls from here), at 15Vf * 700mA = 10.5 Watts.

Heating can cause a 20% drop in output, so if you drive it up at 10.5W, this 280 lumen number can drop to only 224 lumens.

This is all before reflector and lens losses. After that is said and done, you are looking at ~156.8 lumens out the front.
http://catalog.osram-os.com/media/_en/Graphics/00037308_0.pdf


If you were using the six die 16W device

While cold, their efficiency is 27 lm/W @ 700mA, and it drops from here.

Typical lumens for their *SIX* die part is 420 lumens (when it is cold, during the first 1/40th of a second, it falls from here), at 22.5Vf * 700mA = 15.75 Watts.

Heating can cause a 20% drop in output, so if you drive it up at 15.75W, this 420 lumen number can drop to only 336 lumens.

This is all before reflector and lens losses. After that is said and done, you are looking at ~235.2 lumens out the front.

http://catalog.osram-os.com/media/_en/Graphics/00037311_0.pdf

 

[270winchester]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

The four die 10W device

Remember, OSRAM's OSTAR parts are also measured with the die at 25C for a very short blip in time:

"1)Brightness groups are tested at a current pulse duration of 25*ms and a tolerance of ±*11%. Condition for luminous intensity measurement acc. to CIE127 condition A"

While cold, their efficiency is 25 lm/W @ 700mA, and it drops from here.

Typical lumens for their *SIX* die part is 280 lumens (when it is cold, during the first 1/40th of a second, it falls from here), at 15Vf * 700mA = 10.5 Watts.

Heating can cause a 20% drop in output, so if you drive it up at 10.5W, this 280 lumen number can drop to only 224 lumens.

This is all before reflector and lens losses. After that is said and done, you are looking at ~156.8 lumens out the front.
http://catalog.osram-os.com/media/_en/Graphics/00037308_0.pdf


If you were using the six die 16W device

While cold, their efficiency is 27 lm/W @ 700mA, and it drops from here.

Typical lumens for their *SIX* die part is 420 lumens (when it is cold, during the first 1/40th of a second, it falls from here), at 22.5Vf * 700mA = 15.75 Watts.

Heating can cause a 20% drop in output, so if you drive it up at 15.75W, this 420 lumen number can drop to only 336 lumens.

This is all before reflector and lens losses. After that is said and done, you are looking at ~235.2 lumens out the front.

http://catalog.osram-os.com/media/_en/Graphics/00037311_0.pdf

No gonna argue with your technical expertice here Newbie.

just wanted to chime in though, even if the best possible number out the front is around 235.2 lumens, it still is a major step forward in output. The best X-bin puts out 192-240ish lumens, and I suppose at the start for very brief moment. So that 240 best possible case number goes down to 192 lumens, plus reflector/lens loss that figure goes down to 120 lumen if accounting for 40% loss, 135ish if we are talking about 30% loss in output.

That's a 72-100% increase in output, 100% being from the 120 lumen figure, granted perhaps at the expense of some(but not much) efficiency. it nevertheless puts the light in a whole new class in terms of output. Which is why most of us are very interested...

Nick

 

[NewBie]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

No gonna argue with your technical expertice here Newbie.

just wanted to chime in though, even if the best possible number out the front is around 235.2 lumens, it still is a major step forward in output. The best X-bin puts out 192-240ish lumens, and I suppose at the start for very brief moment. So that 240 best possible case number goes down to 192 lumens, plus reflector/lens loss that figure goes down to 120 lumen if accounting for 40% loss, 135ish if we are talking about 30% loss in output.

That's a 72-100% increase in output, 100% being from the 120 lumen figure, granted perhaps at the expense of some(but not much) efficiency. it nevertheless puts the light in a whole new class in terms of output. Which is why most of us are very interested...

Nick

Not really, ever see the 7 Lux III mags, or the four LuxV mags?

Now, if you were to do multiple SIX die OSTAR....

Remember, these will throw a "largish" lit patch, like the Lux V lights.

Remember these come in a four die and six die part...


So this puppy is pushing 10W, to slightly exceed top binned LuxV at 5W?

Eyes are logrithmic in response, so a 100% increase in output (or 2x), only looks a bit brighter, doesn't look 2x as bright. Doubtful you could even see for certain a 20% difference in a side by side.

If you are not side by side white wall hunting/comparing, you'd be hard pressed to see the difference with 20%.

100% increase, or doubling is a different ball of wax, which you could probably tell, especially side by side, it would look a bit brighter.

But remember this. You will have 2x the heat in the 10W, so things by nature will be quite a bit warmer, so in a 5W Lux V vs. a 10W OSTAR, the OSTAR will suffer alot more lumen loss. Think about it, the heatsink is gonna get alot more toasty...

 

[NewBie]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

No gonna argue with your technical expertice here Newbie.

just wanted to chime in though, even if the best possible number out the front is around 235.2 lumens, it still is a major step forward in output. The best X-bin puts out 192-240ish lumens, and I suppose at the start for very brief moment. So that 240 best possible case number goes down to 192 lumens, plus reflector/lens loss that figure goes down to 120 lumen if accounting for 40% loss, 135ish if we are talking about 30% loss in output.

That's a 72-100% increase in output, 100% being from the 120 lumen figure, granted perhaps at the expense of some(but not much) efficiency. it nevertheless puts the light in a whole new class in terms of output. Which is why most of us are very interested...

Nick

No it isn't.

The 10W four die part, is only:

This is all before reflector and lens losses. After that is said and done, you are looking at ~156.8 lumens out the front.

X bin Luxeon V you figured 120 to 135.

These are basically in the 20% difference range, as 20% less of 156.8 lumens is 125.44 lumens, so it is a wash-since that is on the threshold of detecting, even if you are a white wall hunter.

Yet you are burning 2x the power up in the OSRAM, yet looking at ~20% performance increase.

Now, if you can get the top end bins of the 10W OSTAR, that is another matter... Binning is as important in the OSTAR.

The 10W OSTAR part can be half the output of a X bin Lux V, or it can be double the output of the X bin Lux V- if you can get a premium PX bin

 

[chevrofreak]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

You guys should give Newbie some respect, he knows more about electronics and LED's than any other CPF member that I can think of.

He is absolutely correct about the efficiencies too. I ran the numbers myself and the X bin LuxV's are getting some insane efficiency numbers, some twice what the Ostar can do.

 

[pokkuhlag]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

By joining this forum, he gains the right to post his opinion about threads. In this case he's giving people a real life lumen calculation and comparison with other LED's. What's wrong with that? I think it's very useful for the buyers to know what they are buying. IMHO the ones going off topic sends thread to the trash.

Now lets go back on Topic: Got any runtime graphs yet? .

 

[chevrofreak]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

His information is usually spot on though, and directly related to the topic. I appreciate when he lets me know about efficiency, or lack thereof in some lights. He does kinda have a less than soft and cuddly approach to posting his data though.

 

[wquiles]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

Agreed. Although we could argue one way or the other about Newbie's "style", I have come to appretiate and highly respect whenever he does say something - his knowledge on many ilumination topics is vast indeed. Not only that, unlike others that simply state an opinion, Newbie most always goes out of his way to give independent, objective material to back up his claims. Its like saying "you don't have to believe me - go here and read it" - that is one of the main reasons I respect Newbie.

Although it is true that it might appear to some that Newbie submited a trashy comment/contribution, I see past that and realize that these comments by Newbie indeed try to make sure that we look at the scientific data and/or point of view and not the hype. I for one want Newbie to continue contributing as much as he can - I can certainly deal with his "style" no problem

Will

 

[TENMMIKE]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

+1

Agreed. Although we could argue one way or the other about Newbie's "style", I have come to appretiate and highly respect whenever he does say something - his knowledge on many ilumination topics is vast indeed. Not only that, unlike others that simply state an opinion, Newbie most always goes out of his way to give independent, objective material to back up his claims. Its like saying "you don't have to believe me - go here and read it" - that is one of the main reasons I respect Newbie.

Although it is true that it might appear to some that Newbie submited a trashy comment/contribution, I see past that and realize that these comments by Newbie indeed try to make sure that we look at the scientific data and/or point of view and not the hype. I for one want Newbie to continue contributing as much as he can - I can certainly deal with his "style" no problem

Will

 

[NewBie]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

The heat impact on light output is much less than with a Luxeon V, as deplicted in this drawing:

As you can see where I overlayed the OStar curve on the Luxeon V chart, at 100C the Luxeon has dropped 25% brightness and the OStar is down only about 10%.

I've not found any numbers for life span yet for the OStar, but I'm betting it is going to be better than the 500 hour life stated for the Luxeon V Portable.

If you're interested, the data sheet for the OStar can be found HERE

Tonight I'll try and get some pics of a shoot off between the OStar Mag, my 2D Luxeon V X4T Mag (1.4Amp overdrive) and my 2D 10W HID Solarc Maglite. I'm not sure if the camera will show much difference, but it's worth a try.

Actually that is not a datasheet, but an old application note from back in March.

This is from the latest datasheet, on 2006-06-01, found on page 10,
http://catalog.osram-os.com/media/_en/Graphics/00037308_0.pdf
:

Now, what happens when we overlay the actual graph from the real current datasheet, that is less than one month old, with the graph from the Luxeon V datasheet:

Luxeon V white datasheet found here (see page 6):
http://www.lumileds.com/pdfs/DS40.PDF

 

[270winchester]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

No it isn't.

The 10W four die part, is only:

This is all before reflector and lens losses. After that is said and done, you are looking at ~156.8 lumens out the front.

X bin Luxeon V you figured 120 to 135.

These are basically in the 20% difference range, as 20% less of 156.8 lumens is 125.44 lumens, so it is a wash-since that is on the threshold of detecting, even if you are a white wall hunter.

Yet you are burning 2x the power up in the OSRAM, yet looking at ~20% performance increase.

Now, if you can get the top end bins of the 10W OSTAR, that is another matter... Binning is as important in the OSTAR.

The 10W OSTAR part can be half the output of a X bin Lux V, or it can be double the output of the X bin Lux V- 9

right, notice in my statement I NEVER said I was only speaking of the 10w unit. SInce I repsonded to your post, I quoted you in which you were talking about the 6-die version.

if you can get a premium PX bin

but how available is the X-bin these days? not very much. Other than the very few custom modders and makers I have not seen many x-bins flowing around.

I foudn it a little odd that you kept using the out put number of the X-bin compare to the Osram Ostars. For the rest of us X-bin are EXTREMELY rare to come by. If Lambda can offer us something with output higher than the X-bin, I will take it since for me, the X-bin is obtainium at this point in time. What good does the X-bin efficiency do if we don't have one?

Look, I'm not here to start a number-war with you, I concede that you have the upper hand in information and technical know-how. I am just saying that while the X-bins are great in the efficiency department, having a light with the same ouput, even if more power hungry, is still better than nothing or having to buy an extremely expensive one.

Lambda is offering the rest us the choice to own something that we otherwise wouldn't have. That is fantastic. I know that there are multi-luxIII or V lights, but they typically are complex and expensive. And maybe someone doesn't like the beam from the small reflectors? I love flood lights, don't give me wrong, but having the OPTION to have a higher output LED in a large reflector is a mighty nice option in itself.

 

[Eric S]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

I`m still witcha LED Z

 

[NewBie]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

Hi All,

Newbie certainly has a point that data sheets from the same source may differ, so that just goes to show again that you can not build a light from spec sheets and application notes. It takes real hands on work and experimenting to make it happen; and that's what this thread is about.

And I know somebody who appears pretty upset that I've got OStars to play with and all he's got is er, well, spec sheets and application notes. :lolsign:

No, you were using an old application note.

I'm using a current datasheet, which came out in the past month.

Trust me, you are not the only one with OSTARs.

The point was, that the average four die OSTAR matches up with top end binned Luxeons, while consuming 2X the power of the top end bins for the Luxeon V.

You might consider underdriving the six die OSTAR, like I did, the results are even more spectacular, and you pick up efficiency, and pay a little with a 30% larger source size- but the larger source size makes for a larger lit area down range. It depends I guess, really on whether you want more of a spot or want to light a little more area. Of course, if one wanted a spot, then a single die part would be best. Much like the difference between a Lux V and Lux III.

Which bin of the OSTARs did you get?

Just like the Luxeon V, the binning is *very* important.

What bins do you plan on using in your lights?

At last, HID brightness without a warm up period. Instant on/off operation with HID brightness.

And of course, since the OStar is an LED, no more fragile HID bulbs! Bump it, drop it, it don't matter, it's an LED. It's really the best of both worlds, HID brightness with the durability and shock resistance of an LED.

Just finished this prototype and am waiting for it to get dark so I can take some outdoor beam shots :candle:

Curious, how do you figure HID brightness?

A typical D2S bulb makes 3200 lumens, and this 10W LED is making under 1/10th the light output.
http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/ged2shid.pdf

You are correct about the robustness of the LED, much better. Instant on to full brightness is nice too.

 

[Empath]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

These posts of the original thread have been made into it's own thread. Both points of view deserve to be heard and the opportunity to respond should be available. Some disruptive posts have been hidden away in order to maintain a degree of integrity. We sincerely hope that no other intervention by moderators or administrators is necessary.

 

[270winchester]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

newbie:

I am still puzzled by the comparison of the X-bin lux-V with the Ostar units. I don't have an X-bin. I have a W-bin HD45, which is an excellent light, and I figure it puts out about 100-110 lumen out the front. If, as you said, the 4-die part puts out 156 lumens out the front, it's a 40-50% increase with 2x the power. Not great, but not as bad as the 20% figure you used by comapring the OStar to the unobtainium X-bin.

I was talkign to a few custom builders in the Bay Area get-together and there was a consensus that the existing X-bins floating around may or may not be all that much better than the W-bins that say, Don was using. EVen Don and Wayne, who make lights, said at one point that the X-bins did not make a dramatic difference, albeit definitely there, when compared to the WWOT emitters they were using.

isn't the average efficiency of the T-bin lux-III around 25-28 lumen/W?( figuring 3w making up to 80 lumens for the better ones, except the H-vf which are insanely efficcient), so in essence the Ostar is like a LuxIII but with 3x the power and 3x the output?

 

[PEU]

Re: OMAGAWD ! - OStar Maglight 2D

It would be interesting to compare a common tri lux3 flashlight to one sporting a ostar like lambda's using the same current to the led and the same power source.

With the advances in LED technology we will see a lot of new products in different formats, Im sure many will be nice but not suited for flashlight use, maybe this ostar is the first example of many to follow.


Pablo

 

[Luna]

Why is it hard to take Lamda's HID like brightness? I mean comeone, a 10W WA (or chinese clone) isn't that much of a powerhouse so Jar, why are you assuming the a D2S? A 450lumen vs a 420lumen, sounds fair to me.

Just look at quickbeam testing the sf 10X having more output than the 24W AElight. Who would have thunk it looking at the spec sheets.

Lamda obviously has experience so we 'gotsta' give him some 'spect.

 

[NewBie]

Thanks for that wquiles