50-100 flashlights for cave explorers

[ithor]

Hi!

We run company in Iceland specializing in cave tours.

We need 1-mode flashlight (because we don't want "untrained" persons flashing SOS and/or annoying other people) - So just on and off.

It would be good if the charge lasts for 7-8 tours - each tour is about 1 hour. - So perhaps 9-10 hours at max, before recharging.
This summer we'll have tens of thousands of persons taking the tour, so we think rechargeable flashlights would be ideal.

I've seen some ebay lights, they are cheap, but don't last long enough and the ratio on power/duration is way too high. We don't need to light the cave up completely... 100 lumen per person is enough, I think.

We need anywhere between 50 units to 100 units, depending on price and durability.

Can anyone tell me what is good and what is bad? - This is as well ideal for someone selling to convince me :)

All the best! Thanks!

 

[hiuintahs]

I wonder if the reason no one has responded yet, is I'm not sure I know of such a light that would be just single mode and yet put out 100 lumens. Most manufacturers are going to put multiple modes just because they would sell better.

If the people are bunched together in the cave tour, I wonder also if 100 lumens might be more than necessary. Just thinking out loud. Maybe you could find a light that you think would suit you and have the manufacturer make a modification to it if you told them you were planning on buying 100 of them.

 

[scsmith]

The only single mode, 100 lumen light that will run as long as you want that I can think of is a Malkoff M61LL drop-in in the host of your choice. Malkoff says it will get 10 hours of full run time on a pair of CR123 primary batteries. That means it would run even longer on a single 18650 or 17670 rechargeable battery, because those batteries have much higher capacity than a pair of CR123 primaries. Malkoff drop-in modules are also well known as being the toughest, most durable units made. The Solarforce L2 series are pretty reliable hosts that are very cost effective. I'd contact Malkoff Devices for bulk pricing on M61LL drop-ins; and then contact Lighthound for bulk pricing on Solarforce L2 hosts, 18650 or 17670 protected batteries, and appropriate chargers.

The Malkoff modules will last for years, even in the conditions you want to use them. Rechargeable batteries are a consumable item over the long term. The Solarforce hosts starting at a regular price of $13 each are also semi-consumable. I'd expect to replace at least several batteries over the course of the season just because of the number of charge - discharge cycles they'll be put through. The Solarforce hosts are pretty tough, but I'm betting at least a couple are going to get knocked out of service over a season of caving. They aren't Surefire tough, but at 1/5 the cost they're quite a value. You may also want to look at the slightly more expensive Solarforce L2P hosts because they have an internal anti-corrosion coating, true type III hard anodized exterior, and a tougher switch as upgrades over the base L2. I'd also get Solarforce lanyard rings and some brightly colored paracord from lighthound or elsewhere. Fashioning simple lanyards from brightly colored cord will make the lights much easier to keep up with.

 

[Hooked on Fenix]

You have a lot of problems to deal with for this type of suggestion. First, cost. Lights used in caving need to be waterproof and reliable. Liability issues if the lights fail are a concern, especially if you put all your eggs in one basket with the same light for everyone. Second, charging is going to be an issue with that many batteries to charge in one night. Third, type of batteries to charge: 100 lumens for 10 hours will require large batteries and multiple batteries. Charging that many lithium ion 18650 cells will get costly, take time, and with the wrong charger (one that trickle charges) you can expect to destroy the batteries quickly. Fourth, most lights that are 100 lumens have 2 or more levels to conserve energy, especially the good quality ones.

It would help to know a price range per light. It would help to know if you'd be willing to settle for a 2 level light w/o strobe. Some two level lights can change settings by loosening or tightening the head. You can preset them to the desired level and leave them there. Just push the switch like a single level light. The other setting is there if you need it but it is out of the way. Preset to the lower setting, a 2AA light run on rechargeables could get you around 10 hours per set, but give the 100+ lumens on high if needed. One example is the Fenix E21 which takes 2AAs. One that takes 18650s is the Fenix TK11. If you don't mind cycling through the high and low setting, there is the Rayovac Indestructable line of lights that might work for you. Home Depot also carries a Defiant brand 2 level 2D Cree XM-L flashlight that puts out over 500 lumens on high for $30. The current trend in lights is moving away from the twisty two level light or one that can come on on high or low and moving on to side switch lights that remember the last mode the light was on. YMMV finding a light that suits your needs as the current trend is moving away from what you want.

As I said, charging that many batteries might be difficult in a short period of time. Try to stick to lights that can run on cheap batteries in case you don't get all your rechargeables charged in time. This usually means sticking to AAs or Ds. The most durable rechargeables that you'll find to use are AA Eneloops. Try to get the newest 1800 charge ones if you can, the 1500 charge ones if you can't. If you need something that charges faster, get some Rayovac 15 minute rechargeable AAs and the charger for them. Eneloops will last the longest, but some good 15 minute batteries might save you from buying more disposable batteries. If cost isn't an issue, you might want to invest in flashlights run on supercapacitors that can charge within a couple minutes and charge them quickly after every 1 hour tour. These lights can set you back over $150 each though. Don't bother trying to get rechargeable Ds and a charger. They are too costly, there is too long before you get a return on investment versus disposables, and they take too long to charge. Good luck making your decision and I hope you find what you're looking for.

 

[ledmitter_nli]

The only single mode, 100 lumen light that will run as long as you want that I can think of is a Malkoff M61LL drop-in in the host of your choice. Malkoff says it will get 10 hours of full run time on a pair of CR123 primary batteries. That means it would run even longer on a single 18650 or 17670 rechargeable battery, because those batteries have much higher capacity than a pair of CR123 primaries. Malkoff drop-in modules are also well known as being the toughest, most durable units made. The Solarforce L2 series are pretty reliable hosts that are very cost effective. I'd contact Malkoff Devices for bulk pricing on M61LL drop-ins; and then contact Lighthound for bulk pricing on Solarforce L2 hosts, 18650 or 17670 protected batteries, and appropriate chargers.

The Malkoff modules will last for years, even in the conditions you want to use them. Rechargeable batteries are a consumable item over the long term. The Solarforce hosts starting at a regular price of $13 each are also semi-consumable. I'd expect to replace at least several batteries over the course of the season just because of the number of charge - discharge cycles they'll be put through. The Solarforce hosts are pretty tough, but I'm betting at least a couple are going to get knocked out of service over a season of caving. They aren't Surefire tough, but at 1/5 the cost they're quite a value. You may also want to look at the slightly more expensive Solarforce L2P hosts because they have an internal anti-corrosion coating, true type III hard anodized exterior, and a tougher switch as upgrades over the base L2. I'd also get Solarforce lanyard rings and some brightly colored paracord from lighthound or elsewhere. Fashioning simple lanyards from brightly colored cord will make the lights much easier to keep up with.

I definitely agree. BUT the Malkoff's suffer from having no reverse polarity protection. It might be a big headache for the tour operators.

 

[ozdavo]

I'm not a "flashlight guy", so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I would have thought a high priority item would be cradle charging. Who really wants to be opening 50-100 lights every evening to put batteries on charge, then reloading the lights every morning!


Sent from my iThingy using Tapatalk

 

[rmteo]

MAGLITE® LED 2-Cell D Flashlight

 

[AnAppleSnail]

What kind of cave tours? Caves range from "A stroll on flat, soft sand that happens to be in the dark" to "single-rope ascent up a freezing waterfall." I assume that from your group size, you've got the first kind of cave. There are significant costs here. Let's pick an existing, reasonably acceptable consumer light for a walk in the dark.

Let's say you buy this light, and program them all to 'Medium' (227 mA, around 6-10 hours runtime, around 100 lumen output). Shiningbeam Spark. That's $30 per light, with about $4 in Eneloops, and yes, you'd have to switch cells manually. That runs to $34 per unit, plus involvement to charge and change lights.

Your guides will need a stack of spares in case you miss a light or someone figures out 'high' mode. I suggest spraypainting them into groups (Red, Blue, Yellow). Change Red cells on Monday, Blue on Wednesday, Yellow on Friday, perhaps. It takes me around a minute to remove cells, replace with ones from charger, and put cells on the charger. So someone spends about 10 minutes a day average swapping batteries. I've never changed ten lights' worth of cells at once.

Buy quality NiMH AAs. Police your lights that you get them back (Eneloops are heavy, if the light is too light, it's empty). You really ought to get one of the big smart chargers for this. The good news is, a capacity of thirty or fourty cells at a time should be adequate. I believe that this system will work for your needs, but it will cost around ($1700) for 50 or ($3400) for 100, plus around $100 in charging gear. This is why many cave tours opt for long extension cords and stationary lamps. It's cheaper.

Replacement cost will start to wear on you, also. O-rings, lubrication, and cell replacement are necessary. Switches fail, and so do lights. You might ask after manufacturers to see who will give you great support for such a good purchase. Good luck!

 

[TEEJ]

The other consideration I'd want to account for is related to the context question already asked...what range would the lights be needed to reach, and, what amount of illumination would you like on the objects at that distance?

I point this out because the only spec given was lumens, and, you can't SEE lumens. A 100 lumen light with a tightly focused beam can put a teeny spot of light on something a few hundred yards away, but, that often means that all you see is the spot of light itself, and not the details of the object serving as your "Projector Screen".

A 100 lumen light with a very floody beam might put a dim glow in the immediate vicinity of the user, but only to a few yards away. So, HOW floody, or, HOW focused the beam is, will dictate the actual lumens needed to do what's required.

The floodier the beam, the more the tourer will see at a time, as opposed to viewing what's out there through a paper towel tube type view - but the more lumens it takes to get enough light to SEE with (The lumens are more spread out, so it takes more of them to cover an area as brightly).

So, is the amount of light needed to just not trip as they walk between velvet ropes...or, is it to actually illuminate the stalactites and formations, etc, enough to allow appreciation of their beauty and details?

What is the rough range needed for the lights to reach to with enough intensity to do what's needed?

The range of the lights is described by the cd. Once we know the context of your need, what cd you need, and the amount of intensity you need at that range, lights with appropriate lumen/cd/beam angle specs can be selected.

:D

 

[SemiMan]

Hi!

We run company in Iceland specializing in cave tours.

We need 1-mode flashlight (because we don't want "untrained" persons flashing SOS and/or annoying other people) - So just on and off.

It would be good if the charge lasts for 7-8 tours - each tour is about 1 hour. - So perhaps 9-10 hours at max, before recharging.
This summer we'll have tens of thousands of persons taking the tour, so we think rechargeable flashlights would be ideal.

I've seen some ebay lights, they are cheap, but don't last long enough and the ratio on power/duration is way too high. We don't need to light the cave up completely... 100 lumen per person is enough, I think.

We need anywhere between 50 units to 100 units, depending on price and durability.

Can anyone tell me what is good and what is bad? - This is as well ideal for someone selling to convince me :)

All the best! Thanks!

Generally if you are exploring caves you do not use a flashlight, you use a headlight. Safety first and having your hands free is critical for that, even if to break a fall.

You are asking for 100 lumens for 9-10 hours. That is getting to be a good size and I general rule would be to target 9-10 hours and use for no more than 4-5 for safey. 100 lumens/watt is a reasonable out the front target and you are talking then 10 watt hours of storage or about 4 - Eneloops with no headroom, or 2 -18650's with some headroom.

That said, 100 lumens with a large group is too much for dark adjusted eyes most of the time. Most of the time you will want less.

Was recently at Mammoth cave and they were using good quality Princeton Tec headlamps with 4AA battery packs. Of course we did have helmets too. These had a low setting that was done with 5mm leds, and a high powered setting from a high powered led with a lens. Most of the time we ran just with the low powered LED as the other one was just too much light in a large group.

The other thing I would suggest is NOT to use cool white LEDs, but get neutral white if you can. Caves are mainly browns and not that conducive to cool white lighting.

If you go with a flashlight, I highly suggest a high/low setting .... and possibly plastic bodied as it will take being dropped more without obvious damage.

Semiman

 

[Gene43]

I definitely agree. BUT the Malkoff's suffer from having no reverse polarity protection. It might be a big headache for the tour operators.

We will be employing reverse polarity protection in the M61 series in the very near future. Bright pink flashlights = hard to lose.

Gene

 

[BenChiew]

I think Gene is a good place to start.

 

[Dubois]

Generally if you are exploring caves you do not use a flashlight, you use a headlight. Safety first and having your hands free is critical for that, even if to break a fall.

I think the trouble with a headlight in a situation like this (guided tour) is that when the guide stops to talk, s/he will have 50/100 sets of eyes- and therefore headlights - on him/her. At least the visitors can point the flashlights away from the guide.

 

[ithor]

Thanks for all the replies, safety isn't really a big concern with lighting. The guides are equipped with Led Lenser X21's and security back-up lights, so we don't really have to make the lights extremely reliable for life/death situations.


I think 10-15 lights with wide beams of 80 lumen, pointed at a stalagmite will flood-light the stalagmite, so we don't need "pointy" lights.

I think 18650 will be good choice , and we can have a lot of these batteries on stand by and change when necessary.

Anyway thanks for the replies once again. I will take a look at the models you posted above.

 

[SemiMan]

I think the trouble with a headlight in a situation like this (guided tour) is that when the guide stops to talk, s/he will have 50/100 sets of eyes- and therefore headlights - on him/her. At least the visitors can point the flashlights away from the guide.

That is why you have a high/low setting. Most of the time you are on low and pointed somewhat downwards. It is only when you are trying to look at specific objects that you turn you unit on high and point up. Depending on what the cave floor and surrounding are like, it can be crucial to have both hands free. I don't do a ton of caving, but when I do, I use a headlight, and keep a flashlight in my pocket for as needed usage.

Semiman

 

[wedlpine]

How about the TerraLux LightStar 80? They also come in several different colors if you wanted to follow AnAppleSnail's suggestion. You can get them for $20-25 a light.

80 lumen output
High CRI (Color Rendering Index) LED brings colors to life like no other LED you’ve ever seen
5 hour runtime
Comes with 2AAA alkaline batteries and high tension, reversible pocket clip
Momentary on, click for constant on/off
Operates on 2 AAA alkaline batteries (included)
Water resistant
Aircraft grade aluminum
Length: 5.5in./13.97cm.
Diameter: .625in./1.59cm.
Weight: 2.24oz./63.50g. with batteries
Limited lifetime warranty

 

[idleprocess]

I think 18650 will be good choice , and we can have a lot of these batteries on stand by and change when necessary.

I would suggest sticking with a more mature battery chemistry. NiMH won't perform as well as Li-Ion, but it's a standard commodity with a good history and pretty universal compatibility - and will also cost a good deal less than Li-Ion. You will be handing these things out to people with unknown levels of experience with these devices: with NiMH, the odds of a tragic freak accident are greatly lowered.

I would second the suggestion for cradle charging (or something other than pulling individual cells out of a regular flashlight housing) if at all possible - moving batteries in and out of sets of light will be a time-consuming process with no value-add for the business that will stress components.

 

[gradio]

wow that's a lot-o-lights to put in the hands of others. I'd probably go cheap price like the Rayovac Indestructible which is somewhat durable.

 

[Jash]

wow that's a lot-o-lights to put in the hands of others. I'd probably go cheap price like the Rayovac Indestructible which is somewhat durable.

Yep, just what I was going to suggest. The 2AA Rayovac (Varta in other countries) Indestructable would fit the bill nicely. It does have two modes, but anyone with half a brain will quickly figure out how it works - One click on, second click low, third click off. I've got one and dropped it several times straight onto concrete with no ill effects. They're pretty robust and well made for the money. It has a bright hotspot with a nice wide halo around it fading into the spill. The only issue is they have a runtime of around 2.5hrs on high (100 lumens).

Purchase a bunch of eneloops and smart chargers and you're good to go.

I'd avoid li-ion, if anything goes wrong with one of the cells you could have a light explode in someone's hand. Unlikely, but a possiblity. One I would want to avoid if my income depended on it.


Rayovac (Varta) 2AA Indestructable High mode on left, Fenix LD12 High mode on right.

Rayovac Low mode on left, LD12 High on right.

Size comparison to Eneloops.

Size comparison to 'average' man's hand.

 

[Kestrel]

My first thought are 1xAA lights (using Eneloops). The output & runtime won't be up to where you want, but the logistics will be FAR easier (i.e. recharging a single inherently safe cell per flashlight). If 100 lumens for 8+hrs is a necessity, I withdraw my suggestion. :)