9/11 one year anniversary - Post comments thoughts, observations here

**DONOTDELETE** · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by LED-FX:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> but have your family butchered in a terrorist attack and then tell me how outraged you are at politics and the economic damage going on.

I'm not saying that to be mean to Adam or anyone else, but it's a little hard to understand sometimes unless you are in the thick of it.

I'm talking about fighting and defeating pure naked aggression and evil. Politics and economics are thrown into it as an excuse or to cloud the real issue. If you don't think that these people are evil and wouldn't hesitate to kill you (no matter where you are from) to get what they want, then I am truly saddened

I do feel lucky that I have no direct experience of terrorist attack.The point being that if the attack on the WTC and Pentagon was meant to de-stablise the US, it failed miserably.

Instead weevils chewing away at the fabric of trust that uderpins the world economy have done much more damage with more effect on peoples lifes, investors are scared to invest, and without investment companies cannot grow and create employment.

But perhaps in Europe terrorism has a longer history and the `new type of war` that America refers to it as, is not so new.

Part of the UK is Northern Ireland, taking no position on either side of wether it should be a Republic or not, or Catholic or Protestant or whatever.The fact remains that for 30 years a `war` of terrorism was fought there and on the UK mainland, over 3000 people died in this `war`.Most of them were completely innocent people from all sides of the divides.

Its not a `war` that`s fought on a conventional battle field, its a war in shopping centres , crowded railway stations and just in the streets.Having a massive military presence offers no advantage, sophisticated weapons are no help against an enemy who simply needs suprise and the crudest of improvised devices.

Fanatics are driven by the unquestioning feeling that they are right and simply look on any retaliation as further proof that they are right.

Removing the figurehead is no guarantee of an end, the evil that underpins it will simply mean a new figurehead rises to fill the vacuum left by what the fanatics will view as a martyr.

Adam<hr /></blockquote>Well Said!

As far as northern Island goes I think that a lot of the world has seen it as a domestic problem, and don't realise that it is something that is/was going on between sections of two countries

Cutter, as far as terrorism goes, America is one of the few parts of the world that until last year has never had the problem, in the 80's the UK had many incidents, that occurred in many cities, so in reference to the post quoted above we have probably been as DIRECTLY affected by terrorism as you. Obviously I don't know you, and if you did know someone personally that lost their life on 9/11, then I apologise. This isn't intended to start a large scale flame fest, I'm just trying to point out that people living in the UK and Ireland, and many other parts of the world, have had the same issues with terrorism that you fine people of America are having now, and it's a *****.

In "Under Siege" Densil Washington has a very good line about terrorism, it includes something about hiding in the shadows, sadly that is what these people do, and it is usually innocent people that loose their life to these cowards. As far as I'm concerned anyone that plants a bomb to kill innocent people isn't even worth a bullet, but I would like to see them get one.

As far as Iraq goes, if I remember correctly, according to the laws of war you are not allowed to remove the head of state/leader of the country, and I think this is the bit that is causing issues, personally I would like to see Sadam's head on a stick, along with Bin Laden's.

Respectfully.

Tim

(I'm damned sure some of the names are spelled incorrectly)

Darell · Sep 3, 2002

Everybody: Thanks for the great, civil discussion.

Can I ask that entire posts NOT be quoted? If you agree with something, great. Say so - but we don't need to see the entire thing again. If we're interested, we'll read it the first time. Saves space, scrolling and bandwidth.

Thanks!

battman · Sep 3, 2002

Anyone ever notice that US is the same abbreviation for the United States AND UltraStinger? Now that's a helluva patriotic light!

Sorry, just trying to "light"en the mood here.
Please ignore if this is inapropriate.

BuddTX · Sep 3, 2002

I traveled via airplane in the begining of Aug, and I beeped when going through the metal detector, and the security person, said, "I'm sorry, but you need to step over here to be searched".

As I stepped over to be scanned further, I said to him "NEVER APOLOIGE for asking anyone to do that. I will gladly do that as many times as is necessary."

LED-FX, I think you are right about Enron, Worldcom, etc, but it does not fall into the same epic of horror as the acts of war that happened on 9/11.

If before the WorldCom, Enron, Author Anderson etc events happened, if I made a general statement that some large coorporations are corupt, and that some large coorporations "cook the books" to make their figures look better than they really are, would anyone have dissagreed with that statement?

And yes, horrible things happen every day. How many people were killed during the USA's labor day weekend (Aug 30-Sept 2) (In 2001, there were 364 fatalities) - http://www.careofnorthamerica.org/labor01.htm

364 deaths. 364 people that weren't deathly ill, got up on Tursday morning, but did not get up on Tuesday morning.

But that horror is part of our life in America. No we should not accept it, and we need to reduce that number. We all know that we could potentially be killed every time we get into our vehicle. But we don't think that we will be killed at work, while sitting at your desk.

There are lots of horrible things in this world that happen.

I don't even know how to end this commentary.

With every one of those traffic deaths, someone could have done something differently to prevent the death. Not drink, drive slower, or just stayed at home. (that is a way over simplification here, you get the idea).

9/11 was an act of war against civilians.

I can't seem to end this commentary. lots of horrible things happen, but 9/11, man, sometimes words can't describe your feelings.

Cutter · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by LED-FX:
The point being that if the attack on the WTC and Pentagon was meant to de-stablise the US, it failed miserably.

I really feel saddened when I hear things like this. If anyone truly believes that Osama Bin Laden thought that this would have a major impact on the United states or, that it would get us to bow to his demands, then I don't know what to say to you. He did this to cause pain. He did this simply to kill as many innocent people as he could that didn't think like him. He knew that this wouldn't have any effect on U.S. policies. He did this to cause pain for our citizens and pleasure for himself.

Here is the law that Osama uses to justify his murders. Encarta states: Islamic law states that all nations must surrender to Islamic rule, if not its faith. Until that time, all adult, male, and able-bodied Muslims are expected to take part in hostile jihads against non-Muslim neighbors and neighboring lands.

According to this people, no nation is safe until there is world domination under Islamic rule. Do you truly think that anyone is safe with these ruthless leaders still alive? And before anyone starts complaining, not all Muslims think like this. There are other verses that contradict this statement but this is the one that Osama Bin Laden uses to justify sending his own people on suicide missions.

Instead weevils chewing away at the fabric of trust that uderpins the world economy have done much more damage with more effect on peoples lifes, investors are scared to invest, and without investment companies cannot grow and create employment.

Click to expand...

Sure, the effects on the economy are more widespread LED-FX. But I value life far much more than a good economy. Simple as that.

Part of the UK is Northern Ireland. The fact remains that for 30 years a `war` of terrorism was fought there and on the UK mainland, over 3000 people died in this `war`.Most of them were completely innocent people from all sides of the divides.

Click to expand...

Over 3,000 civilians died within a few hours of the coward attack on our city. All of them were completely innocent civilians.

Removing the figurehead is no guarantee of an end, the evil that underpins it will simply mean a new figurehead rises to fill the vacuum left by what the fanatics will view as a martyr.

Adam

Click to expand...

Nothing is an absolute. We would not simply eliminate Saddam and leave the country in turmoil. Just as in Afghanistan, we would ensure that a stable government of the people was in place and running first. It would be stupid to do otherwise. People seem to forget that we have had military presence in Iraq for 10 years now since the end of the Gulf War and have established "no fly" zones over that country. One of the reasons for this is to help protect the people of Iraq in the outlying areas of that country who have risen against Saddam. Without this protection, he would slaughter them without mercy.

Originally posted by cerberus:
Cutter, as far as terrorism goes, America is one of the few parts of the world that until last year has never had the problem, in the 80's the UK had many incidents, that occurred in many cities, so in reference to the post quoted above we have probably been as DIRECTLY affected by terrorism as you. I'm just trying to point out that people living in the UK and Ireland, and many other parts of the world, have had the same issues with terrorism that you fine people of America are having now, and it's a *****.

As far as Iraq goes, if I remember correctly, according to the laws of war you are not allowed to remove the head of state/leader of the country, and I think this is the bit that is causing issues, personally I would like to see Sadam's head on a stick, along with Bin Laden's.

Respectfully.
Tim

I appreciate your thoughts Tim and I know you didn't mean any disrespect. In fact, it seems that we think alike on a lot of issues. But you are wrong in your statement that until last year, we have never had the problem. Abroad, we have had American civilians, American Embassies, and American vessels attacked and Americans were killed. Just because it didn't happen on American soil (although our Embassies are American soil no matter where they are located) doesn't mean it's not an attack against America. Not to mention the fact that this was the second attack on the World Trade Center in New York. It was bombed back in the 1990's in an attempt to topple it then.

And Tim, if your country has suffered attacks by one of the countries that attacked us, here's a novel idea, let's do something about it. Join us in putting an end to it. We would love it if more countries would get behind us to stop this before an even greater tragedy occurs, on anyones soil.

And by directly affected Tim, I mean by having your family members crushed beneath tons of concrete and steel or shot in the back of the head execution style. This isn't a contest, but sadly, it appears to be turning into one. This thread was meant for people to vent their thoughts about the great tragedy that happened in America on September 11, 2001.

I feel saddened by terrorism no matter where it takes place. But let's start seperate threads about events that happened in other countries and I'll constructivly contribute towards it.

And as far as the rules of war you mentioned Tim, again I disagree with you. Osama Bin Laden and Saddam do not follow the rules of war as you have stated. Their belief is that they can kill anyone who doesn't think like them, civilian or military, in any country that they choose. In our country, it is against the law to kill someone. Yet if someone disregards the law and is harming innocent people then they are often dealt with by deadly force.

This is a very serious topic people with a specific title about a very specific event. Let's at least make an effort to keep it on that topic.

Dan out

LED-FX · Sep 3, 2002

I really feel saddened when I hear things like this. If anyone truly believes that Osama Bin Laden thought that this would have a major impact on the United states or, that it would get us to bow to his demands, then I don't know what to say to you.

Frankly who knows what Bin Laden thinks, it is unlikely to be recognisable as rational, but the symbolism was clear, the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and possibly the White House, the centers of US Trade, Military and Political power.

Encarta states: Islamic law states

Encarta is an American orientated Encyclopedia, though generally fairly authorative. I count among my friends a couple of Muslims and they see nothing that justifies Bin Laden`s actions. In the Christian teachings the Old Testament calls for `an eye for an eye` the New Testament calls for forgiveness.

Sure, the effects on the economy are more widespread LED-FX. But I value life far much more than a good economy. Simple as that.

The economy is what puts food on your table so that you may eat and continue to live, central Africa is a demonstration of what can happen when the economy fails.

Over 3,000 civilians died within a few hours of the coward attack on our city. All of them were completely innocent civilians.

In WWII over 200,000 people died in one night of bombing over Dresden, but that was war. 270 people died in the Pan Am bombing less than 80 miles from where I am now, but that was terrorism. This is not some competition.

Im sorry, you seem to fail to understand, completely, what it is you are saying and advocating.

Deposing the head of state in another country and installing another government:

We would not simply eliminate Saddam and leave the country in turmoil. Just as in Afghanistan, we would ensure that a stable government of the people was in place and running first.

This is most certainly action in another country but :

seperate threads about events that happened in other countries

The US centric view of the World that everyone looks to the US as the center of freedom and a model to all others is not universally shared.

If you need to see the reasoning behind attacking the US domestically it is the attitude you display.The wilingness to get involved in miltary action in Korea, Vietnam,Kuwait and other countries as a kind of remote control warfare, piped into your homes in carefully edited CNN reports.

Do you seriously think no innocent civilians were killed by US weapons in these conflicts?

Their belief is that they can kill anyone who doesn't think like them, civilian or military

You can honestly say that this is in complete contrast to US foreign policy?

Lets be more realistic about Bush`s interest in Saddam Hussein and his father`s in Kuwait. Kuwait has a terrible human rights record,but it is where oil suitable for producing petrol comes from.UK and US oils are not so good for the production of petrol.There are any number of mad dictators across the world, few of them sit on top of large reserves of oil.Therefore they hold no interest to the great American defenders of the free.

Hussein may have chemical,biological or even nuclear weapons, Mr Bush dosen`t feel anyone needs to see the evidence, `trust me` he tells us, just like you would trust the head of any large corporation....

He dosen`t need them to strike against American domestic interests, as has been shown, he is unlikely to have the means of delivery even if he wanted to.Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles are complicated.

The threat is more against his immediate neighbours places like Iran and possibly more important to the US,Israel.This all has little to do with freeing the Iraqi people or obtaining stability in the Middle East, it may well have entirely the reverse effect and bring other combatants into the fray hoping to capitalise on the mayhem.

You CANNOT seperate the events of 9/11 and what happens in other countries,the events are horribly and regretably linked.

Adam

BrightShadow · Sep 4, 2002

I never even got the subject on why NOW the United States, "unites". Maybe its just my outsider perspective, but why would 9/11 be so important to the nation. Yeah, I know that the Twin Towers were distroyed but on the whole, this world stays the same. We are always fighting somebody to prove a point, WHY? Fighting can be done in words, not guns or bombs or any kind of weapon. The people in the Old Testament always turned to God, they never gave up, they kept on going, and God helped them. Why is this any different. I just don't understand, I mean, just to unite, the United States has to go through a terrible loss. Why can't we just live in peace. Of course, I'm all for speaking my mind about politics and issues in the media, but I just don't get how so many people are blinded by OTHER peoples feelings instead of there own. Yes, Bin Laden is a big threat, but what is it doing to our children. The very innocence of this very nation. I know that they are a very big part of this world and our lives. But, if you stop and think, they are just as important, no, MORE important to this nation than our generation will ever be. They are our voice, they are our lives and they are the future for this nation. If I ask any one of the children that I work with, they will say that peace is better that war, or arguments or fighting for that matter. Why can't we listen to them. Listen to what they are saying and listen to the child in YOU. Thats what this nation needs, not war and especially not fighting from fear of what we don't know.
O.K. I am really tired after writing all that!

bwcaw · Sep 4, 2002

I was shocked when I first saw the pictures of the towers falling, but the tradgedy didn't sink in untill I saw a picture of a man falling to his death out of a window because of the intense heat of the flames behind him.

I think some of us have forgotten the horror of that day, I think we all should watch those images
to remind our selves of the terrible act that was perpetrated uppon those unsuspecting people who could have been any one of us! I watched a documentary about that day, and saw some of the photographs that were taken on 9-11, last nigh on the History channel, and it almost brought me to tears thinking of all those people snached from this earth in the prime of their lives totally unexpectedly, and without a chance to see their loved ones again.

vcal · Sep 4, 2002

Sadly, wars are a fact of life on this planet-even back in Biblical times. And adults have always had to try to explain to their children WHY wars are started and fought.

In my short life here, beginning in world war II, there have been several (WW-II, Korea, Viet Nam, Gulf War, and let's not forget the Cold War that lasted almost 50 years(!).

A platitude here-"war is the last act of diplomacy"-sad, but true....So, despite our mechanisms (like ambassadors, trade reps, UN, Nato, Seato etc.), there are such aggravating cross-interest clashes, that even organized diplomacy fails, we (meaning almost every country, in general), resort back to a more primitive way of settling differences. A fact of life:(

-One more cliché, terrorism is "low intensity warfare", and will always be used when one group feels technologically disadvantaged...

-No flag-waving here, or politics, just some rambling thoughts-mostly obvious I suppose...........:>-)

Now-let's see what this disorganized post actually looks like!!!-realizing it's now impossible to delete it.

WaltH · Sep 4, 2002

Nothing would make me happier than to wake up on 9-11-02 and learn we'd nuked the entire middle east!
It's time to stop being the nice guy. Don't mess with us or you'll get hurt. All the other countries we've bailed out in the past...you're on your own.

Still bitter, angry, confused. Probably always will be.

vcal · Sep 4, 2002

Walt-emotions try to dictate just that, but economic reality still cautions against it. Oil is just one thing, -besides actual loss of life. I'm very sure most of us share your anger.

BTW-even a temporary oil embargo can WHACK an cool $80 Billion out of an already uneasy economy. There are Numerous other complications also.
I'm also pretty damn unhappy with the Saudis right now,-as well as Osama Bin Looniecrazy.

Greta · Sep 4, 2002

Last night I watched a little bit of a program on TV. I think it was Dateline? Anyway, Jane Pauley was interviewing a whole bunch of people who had recieved phone calls from loved ones on the plane that went down in PA. Funny, but I didn't realize there were so many of them. So many who got to talk to their loved ones. I listened for about 15 minutes to these people describe the phone calls and what they had thought and felt that morning. I was folding clothes and found myself weeping. I changed the channel. Yeah maybe I'm an ostrich in that aspect. I don't want to hear it. I then paused and picked up the phone and called my husband at work and told him, "Don't you ever do that to me! That's why I tell you I love you whenever you walk out the door. Don't you ever call me and tell me you are about to die!" I consider myself to be a strong person. I survived the Gulf War and Somalia with my husband being a Green Beret in both and I live every day now with him as a drug detective on the streets. I'm strong. But I'm not that strong.

Brock · Sep 4, 2002

I just have to say I have always been very proud to be an American. There have been a lot of times I have not been happy with our government or leaders or even big companies, but that hasn't stopped me from being proud and never will! In some ways the freedom that makes this country great also causes some of these problems. I am glad were all free and will do anything I can or have to, to keep it that way, Republican or Democratic, right or left, as long as we are all free!

Revelation · Sep 4, 2002

I'm new to the forum, but I must say some of the reactions in here have got me puzzled. LED-FX's arguement makes absolutely no sense. And, although WaltH's statement is extreme, his anger is certainly understandable. And, although Brightshadows heart seems to be in the right place, alas, I'm afraid the reasoning isn't.

I know the rest of the world likes to believe this is about oil and this is what they've had shoved down their faces by the media. Sorry....continue to think that....but it's not true. If that makes you sleep better by thinking that murderers aren't knocking on your back door as well, then continue to think that.

I had a loved one die in the attacks on September 11th. I can tell you right now that this has nothing to do about oil. When you are on the "Direct Receiving End" of a terrorist attack...then I'll put more weight on your "so called" opinions.

These countries who are turning their backs on the U.S. right now, are the same ones who's butts we've pulled out of the fire too many times to count. And when these terrorist countries do decide to use weapons of mass destruction in the free world, guess who they are going to be crying to for help?

Innocent people die in wars. That's just a fact. But they shouldn't be targeted and every effort should be made to minimize this tragedy.

I know your hearts in the right place Brightshadow but Saddam isn't interested in putting on a party hat, having some cake, and makeing nicey nicey talk. That also is a fact.

Sure, the people in the Old Testament did turn to God, but they also stood up and fought for what they believed in when faced with violence and evil. As Moses and the slaves of Israel were being chased by the Egyptians, he brought the waters of the sea down upon them (with Gods help, of course). Even God realizes the need to root out and destroy evil while it still remains on the face of the earth. Examples being the twin cities of Soddam and Gamora(sp?), not to mention the great flood of Noah, or the plagues of Egypt before the Exodus when God turned the water to blood, and killed the first born child of any non-believer.

And, if you really want to know what a war to eliminate people like Saddam and Osama Bin Laden would do to our children Brightshadow. I don't know......why don't you ask all the orphans that same question from the 9/11 terrorist attack.

I agree with you though.....Peace is always better than war. No doubt about that. But there are people in this world who don't want peace and will not listen to reason so that it can be obtained. They have no problem with murdering anyone that stands in their way, in any country, civilian or military, women or children. That's just a sad fact. Many times, the only way to obtain peace is through war. Most, if not all, peace loving nations that exist right now, obtained that peace with war. By doing so, the darkness of evil can be overshadowed by the light of good.

You have a right to freedom of speech people. But by whose blood do you think you got that privilege?? God Bless our military.

Something to think about.

Rev.

Greta · Sep 4, 2002

Originally posted by Revelation:
I had a loved one die in the attacks on September 11th. I can tell you right now that this has nothing to do about oil. When you are on the "Direct Receiving End" of a terrorist attack...then I'll put more weight on your "so called" opinions.

WOW! That's a little harsh Rev. BTW, welcome to CPF...

Anyway, I guess I don't really care for the attitude that because I didn't directly lose a loved one, my opinion doesn't count. I think my opinion counts very much! And so does everyone else's here. I'm sorry for your loss. I can't imagine your feelings and thoughts. But I do know my own. And mine are just as valid as yours... whatever they be. And everyone else here has valid thoughts and feelings too... if for no other reason than because they are their thoughts and feelings.

Again I am sorry for your loss.

*Edit*... Oh I almost forgot...

Sasha Out

vcal · Sep 4, 2002

Has cutter re-registered as Revelation?

Added:
I AM still deeply sympathetic to anyone who's suffered a direct loss though.
-I've lost my own whole family recently.

**DONOTDELETE** · Sep 4, 2002

I'm sorry. What happened, Doug?
If you want to talk about it...

vcal · Sep 4, 2002

Hi there, Ted
It was from natural causes. Actually it's been about a year now, but occasional attacks of grief come back and can really stab 'ya right in the gut..now and then,-especially when you have to administrate their estate through probate and sort thru mountains of their stuff..

My Father was one of the ultimate handymen,-if he needed something right NOW and didn't have it-he'd probably go out into one of the garages and make it himself. -Kinda similar to some talented folks right here on CPF.;^) I can Still hear him laughing at 100s of his own jokes!

My Mother was a lady with real class (but who could swear like a Marine at Camp Pendleton) -when continually provoked, was probably where I got my sense of determination (stubborness) from. ----Coupla GREAT people.

My father was like the President, and my mother was like Both houses of the Congress.

-they did get along great most of the time, and they were only married for 58 years.

These two were the only real family I have ever had.

They died 3 weeks apart (old age).

I was the only person (beside the pastor) to attend their funerals.

bwcaw · Sep 4, 2002

Originally posted by vcal:

I was the only person (beside the pastor) to attend their funeral.

Damn, that hurts.

You have my condolences, and the sympathy of all CPF'ers I am sure.

BTW I lost my grandfather a couple of years ago, and we recently went to minnesota, one of his favorite places on earth, and that was kind of hard to go without him. I can only imagine what losing both parents inside of a month would be like. I am really very sorry.

**DONOTDELETE** · Sep 4, 2002

Doug, they sound like they were very lucky to have had each other for so long...my sympathies to you...

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