A/C question

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Originally posted by Tree:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you can afford a power line regulator
they make them too, although not real cheap
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have a Tripp Lite LCR2400 in a soundsystem we keep on a riverboat casino that used to use a generator. We've been contemplating buying more.

We use the PM-PRO it is the 20Amp version
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks!!
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Is there a way to build an inexpensive ammeter into a short Edison cable? I could have one of these on every Edison power source to monitor activity.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You could put a panel mount ammeter in a box. An example is:

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=385&item=PMA-15A&type=store

Just be carefull of the wiring, construction, etc... Panel meters are designed to be somewhat protected, so not weatherproof and subject to damage by impact. They would be ideal for building into a rack mounted power distribution system, though. Seems much more usefull than a voltmeter. I wish our computer racks had them.
 
"Any info on how to wire the ammeter?"

All analog moving coil meters are actually voltmeters. In order to measure current, you need to pass the load current through a shunt (very low value resistor). The product of current and the resistance is the voltage dropped across the shunt. By knowing the resistance, and measuring the voltage drop, the current can be calculated.

If the meter you linked to doesn't have a shunt built in, you'll need one of the appropriate value so that the meter reads accurately.
 
We need a EE (Electrical Engineer) here! I seem to remember from some EE classes I took 30+ years ago, that E=IR has to be modified to work with AC circuits. I seem to remember the square root of three being thrown in there somewhere. And make sure your multimeter in AC VOLTS before you stick the leads into the outlet!!!! It ain't pretty what ac does to a dc voltmeter!
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E=IR holds true for AC and DC, what you're concerned with is the RMS value of the AC waveform, which is half the square root of 2, multiplied by the peak voltage.
For 120VAC (RMS) the peak is at 170V.
 
Hopefully to add to what luxO says, all homes (US, CA) are wired with 2 phase power, but I think electricians just talk about "220 volt" and never worry about describing the phase in home wiring. As he stated, your home has essentially the secondary of a transformer with a center tap, which is connected to neutral. 220 volt outlets are wired across the entire secondary and ignore the neutral. 120 volt outlets are wired between neutral and either hot lead. Thus, the 120 volt outlets wired to hot #1 are technically 180 degrees out of phase from the 120 volt outlets wired to hot #2 - but who cares at home. Either of these 120 vac outlets are called single phase - they have one hot wire, one neutral (which is actually at ground potential in the service entrance) and the ground. The ground never carries current unless there's a fault (a hot wire touches the chassis), then it carries a current to trip the breaker.

Panel breakers may have ratings on them (i.e. 20 amps), but in my experience, they can trip unpredictably at modest currents. Sometimes they seem to trip for no apparent reason well within their rating. Sometimes you run what you think is close to rating and nothing happens. Time may be a factor.

Audio amps will typically draw about twice their audio power rating from the AC line if operated at absolute full power with sine waves. Some designs today may have better efficiency. With music, a nice rule of thumb is that the AC draw will about equal the audio power amp rating. Check out this current draw info from QSC:

http://www.qscaudio.com/support/library/techaids/techaids.htm

Their Powerlight PL1.0 map is rated at 200 watts/ch at 8 ohms. QSC recommends using a 1/8 power rating on pink noise as approximating music requirements. Their rating is 2.8 amperes - 336 watts at 120 volts. With full power sine waves, the draw is 984 watts, 8.2 amperes! But like they say, you can never do this in the real world with real audio signals, even heavy ones.

Mackie SRM450 powered speakers recommend no more that 5 units per 15 amp circuit for normal use, which calculates at a current draw of 3A (360W) from the wall. The internal audio amps are rated at about 350 Watts audio power.

As to low voltage problems, there's only so much variation to design for and keep the costs down. I am told by sources familiar with a certain famous line of mixers made near here that 105 VAC is about as low as they design for, then the regulation drops out, headroom is reduced, and much lower and other things stop working right.

I think if you want to measure current, use an inductive-type clamp-on non-destructive probe for your DMM. They might be expensive, but much safer and just as accurate. You don't really want to mess with safely making a box with a line current shunt in it to use on the road. It could be a technical and legal disaster if the slightest thing went wrong with your shunt. I don't know about the line voltage conditioners, but you can't make up power out of thin air. I suspect they have multiple taps on their transformers which electronically are switched as needed. If the source voltage goes down, the conditioner must switch to a higher voltage tap to keep the voltage up. This must be heavy and expensive. And you do use big, heavy gauge power cables, right? A couple hundred feet of 16/3 power cord could have significant voltage drop under heavy load.

Like LuxO says, E=IR (voltage =currentxresistance for AC circuits if you use the RMS (root-mean-square) value of the AC voltage and current. We will ignore power factor for now, where the voltage and current shift phase due to capacitive or inductive load, however, at least audio amp manufacturer, QSC, touts a design with PFC, power factor correction.

BTW, most digital meters today don't care much about whether you set it to AC or DC, and in fact, you can use the different settings to crudely separate the AC/DC component measurement. But please don't measure voltage with the current setting!!

Now, is a Moderator going to move this discussion yet?
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Originally posted by luxO:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Tree:
Just to make sure I have this right. As I understand it...

3 phase = 3 separate hot legs, neutral, ground

single phase = 2 separate hot legs, neutral, ground

Is there a similar term for a regular Edison 3 wire (1 hot, neutral, ground) service?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">not quite right.

Single phase supply has 1 hot, 1 neutral and, of course, ground.

a 2 phase supply has 2 hots, 1 neutral and ground.
With each hot being 180 degrees delayed from each other.You'll measure 240 av between phases and 120 V between each phase and neutral.

A 3 phase supply has 3 hots, 1 neutral and ground.
Each hot is 120 degrees delayed or advanced with respect to each other.
You'll measure 208 volts between phases and 120 v between phase and neutral.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure technically what is right. I have been in the A/V world for about 13 years and every place I have ever been I ask the electrician for single phase power for my power distro and get two hots a ground and neutral from them.
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If I ask for three phase I get three hots a ground and neutral So I guess whether it is the right term or not technically it is what most electricians consider it.
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every place I have ever been I ask the electrician for single phase power for my power distro and get two hots a ground and neutral from them. If I ask for three phase I get three hots a ground and neutral
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Same here.
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Methinks the electricians are giving you 240 volts with 2 (out of phase) single phase 120 volt circuits available, possibly because that may be just what they do when asked for single phase power. If they just gave you a single 120 v outlet, it would probably be limited to 20A. What kind of distro do you hook up with? Or are you showing up with standard 120v plugs? My disclaimer is that I don't do tour sound and don't deal with those guys. Definitely 3 phase has each hot 120 degrees out of phase from the adjacent hot, but if you only power things hot to neutral, who cares. If you had a device requiring 3 phase power such as a large motor, you would care.

Maybe we should take this to the Live Sound BB...
 
Dimmers used for stage lighting often use a 3 Phase supply.

I've also heard electricians call many things by the 'accepted' trade term, it's not always technically correct.
 
Well I don't know much but I am fairly confident that this example of a three phase distro would not pass code anywhere.
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But sometimes you do what you got to do to make a show happen.
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Try a voltmeter at the plug end of the cord.
Use an ampmeter to check the amps flowing through the cord.
If there is nothing else that can solve the problem, use a line conditioner from APC.
 
Well, all interesting, but as long as you're feeding three wires, 1 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground, you've just dealing with one phase. You put the meter in series with the hot lead. (Never put in anyting in series with the neutral.)

My bet would be that the little meter has a shunt supplied with it. I've bought stuff from ALL before, and they're pretty good.

As far as I=e/r, yes, same for AC as long as you're using RMS values, and the currents and voltages are in phase.

The fine print: Phase for i=e/r has nothing to do with 1 or 3 phase. If you're driving an inductive or capacitive load, the current will lead or follow the voltage, so you use I=e/z, where Z is impedence, and you're using complex numbers (vectors) instead of regular numbers. For AC power, this leads to power factor, which is the the ratio of the "real" component of power (voltage x current) to the RMS values of current and voltage multiplied. (More or less) Power companies hate things with low power factors, as it presents a complex (inductive or capacitive) load on their system. This, btw, is why some stuff is rated in VA, or volt-ampere, and some stuff is rated in watts. They're only the same for a load with a 1.0 power factor. (For the detail people, power factor is cosine of load impedence angle, for a load that can be modeled as a simple impedence. For switched mode power supplies, and things with complex waveforms, I don't believe this would be the case.)

On "2 phase": If you ask an electrician about 2 phase wiring, he's going to look at you like you have 2 heads. The reason is that, while from a technical perspective, you COULD describe single phase 120/240 as two phase, as the voltages are 180 degrees apart, but really you're talking about single phase with opposite polarity voltages. Sounds like semantics, but it really isn't. Power, almost always, is created and distributed as 3 phase. This is because, with the possible exception of some brand new technologies, 3 phase induction generators are the most efficient way to produce power. The transformer on the pole outside your house takes one of these three phases, and supplies a center tapped (or the equivalent) set of three wires to the building. The center tap is grounded, and becomes the neutral. For an industrial building, with a three phase feed, they may take one of the sides of the secondary of transformer, ground the center tap of that, and give 4 wire service. One is the center tap of one of the delta windings, and is used for the 120/240 neutral. Two of the wires are for 120/240 hot AND for two of the three phase feeds, and one is the remaining three phase lead. Anyway, if your using power from the "grid", as they call it in the US anyway, your 120/240 circuits are fed off of one phase of the 3 phases of the grid.

The short answer: For a plain old 120v circuit, one ammeter will work fine. You don't need to worry about the way the building is wired.

Disclaimer: Sorry for rambling.
 
the reason the voltage was dropping so low is the resistance from the long cable run. run 2 or more edisons with thicker gauge to help reduce the resistance.

there is no such thing as 2 phase power, single is 2 hots and 3 phase is 3 hots. the 'phase' is the relationship between the hot legs. in a single phase circuit you have 2 hots so one relationship, with 3 hot legs you have 3 relationships (or different phases).
 
"in a single phase circuit you have 2 hots so one relationship"

If i have a single phase circuit, consisting of a hot (120V potential with respect to neutral and ground) a neutral (0V potential between it and ground) and a ground wire. Please tellme where the 'other' hot wire is?

Also, If i have a circuit consisting of a total of 4 conductors. 1 hot at 120V potential with respect to neutral, another hot wire whose potential is 120v with respect to neutral, but also produces a 240V potential difference with respect to the other hot wire. 1 neutral(oV with respect to ground) and 1 ground wire.

What would you call this? Apparently it doesn't exist...even though the majority of residential dwellings in North America are wired this way.
i guess i'm stumped.

"in a single phase circuit you have 2 hots so one relationship"

true, but in a 2 phase (split phase) supply, you have 3 relationships: hot1 to neutral, hot2 to neutral and hot1 to hot2.
Consequentially, in 3 phase, you have 4 relationships.
 
Originally posted by lux0:
What would you call this? Apparently it doesn't exist...even though the majority of residential dwellings in North America are wired this way.
i guess i'm stumped.[/QB]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe all homes or at least all I have been in have two hots a ground and neutral coming in. They then get broke down from there. I don't think anyone here is stupid we just look at things differently.
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"I believe all homes or at least all I have been in have two hots a ground and neutral coming in"

Yes, i've been saying that, it's called 2 phase or 'split phase' power.

My question is, if 2 hots a neutral and ground is called' single phase', then what is 1 hot, a neutral and ground called?
 
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