BC-700 & Now What?

[dcj8913]

Hi All,

First post to CPF, though I have existed in the shadows for some time. :naughty:

I initially got sucked into the battery recharging world after I saw rebranded Eneloop's for $6.oo during Black Friday sales events this past year. I bought 4 packages of AA's figuring I couldn't go wrong. Good price to boot.

So...after some initial thought, I figured I should get a new charger for them. Went out and bought the BC-700 off Amazon. The more I read though, it seems I wasted $30 as the charger only goes up to about 700mAH for one battery. Add three more and it drops....

I'm stuck with the BC-700, but have a few extra dollars this month. I figure the BC-700 will work just fine for routine charges. I hope so at least....

I want to get something for break-ins and recycle charges (after 25 uses) though.

What would an expert recommend? (I probably know which...but I'll keep mum for now....). Is 700mAH to low of a current to tend to the new and old cells I have for general recharging purposes?

Anyways....thanks for any feed back! :thinking:

 

[aurum]

:welcome:

The BC-700 is a good charger ...to my mind 700mA are enough.

break-ins and recycle charges (after 25 uses) though.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this ... the BC-700 has one refrech program integrated.



This one works fine too ...
http://www.mahaenergy.com/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=423

 

[dcj8913]

aurum,

Thank you for the welcome and reply. I appreciate it. :thumbsup:

the BC-700 has one refrech program integrated.

Perhaps I missed that in the manual. I will have to re-read the booklet again. I know one is present in the BC-900 model, as well as the Maha c9000.

Speaking of the Maha model. NewEgg had the c9000 plus carrying case, 8 cell battery holder, and 4 2100 MaH batteries for $54.00 with free shipping. I jumped on that band wagon three days ago. Its at 64 plus shipping now....

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817355031&cm_re=maha-_-17-355-031-_-Product

the charger only goes up to about 700mAH for one battery. Add three more and it drops

Can a battery charging guru confirm/deny if this statement of mine is true or false regarding the BC-700? I read that while the BC-700 is good, if a person tries to charge more than one cell at once, the power rating drops (not significantly, but is noticeable and effects the batteries charging cycle), and each battery receives a varied power level. Can I lure SilverFox out of the depths of the murky unknown for a Yoda type moment? :naughty:

Also! I am looking at CR123 batteries for a water purifier (I'm into camping as well).

(just in case you are interested)
http://www.steripen.com/stuff/conte...da4df0d6690e11d32c4/misc/comparisonchart1.pdf

I figure....why not get rechargeable, right?

Well, based on my research, it appears that this type of battery is not comparable to the technology seen in AA/AAA's. So, having said that, would anyone recommend a good CR123 battery charger?

With shelf life of 10 years, it may be wise just to buy the lithium's and leave it at that. The lithium's cost $2 each and I am not looking at using lots of these; unless manufacturers resort to them over AA/AAA's in the near future for all common apps (cameras, remote controllers, ect).

Thoughts from the CPF community?

 

[NutSAK]

The BC-700 operates exactly the same as the BC-900. The only difference is the max current available. You'll get pretty close to 700mA per battery with all four channels filled at max current.

 

[Ragiska]

"the charger only goes up to about 700mAH for one battery. Add three more and it drops "


Can a battery charging guru confirm/deny if this statement of mine is true or false regarding the BC-700? I read that while the BC-700 is good, if a person tries to charge more than one cell at once, the power rating drops (not significantly, but is noticeable and effects the batteries charging cycle), and each battery receives a varied power level. Can I lure SilverFox out of the depths of the murky unknown for a Yoda type moment? :naughty:

not sure where you got that, but it's completely incorrect. charge current does not change with number of cells.

 

[core]

Perhaps I missed that in the manual. I will have to re-read the booklet again. I know one is present in the BC-900 model, as well as the Maha c9000.

The BC-700 has a refresh cycle, and actually it's quite hard to miss just clicking through the modes.

It goes:
Charge, Discharge, Refresh, Test

Don't get me started on the display of the refresh mode though. The manual says it's supposed to display the capacity of the last cycle but in practice it never ever changes. For me.

I'd rather just handle it myself manually. If I'm going to be there, that is. (And if I'm not going to be there should I even be letting it run?) The only thing I use the refresh cycle for generally is for discharging cells. This has the nice side effect of preserving the amount discharged in the display so you don't have to sit there and try to catch it at the exact second for recordkeeping purposes: If you miss it by a few minutes you can just write down the number and remove the cell. In the actual 'Discharge' mode that is not possible.

(Edit: Serveral posts later I realized perhaps I wasn't clear. On 'Discharge' mode the information is lost as soon as it switches to recharge, because it then begins tracking energy input, whereas on Refresh mode, the energy discharged is still available to be seen as you cycle the display.)

Also the 700 does not lower the current if multiple cells are inserted. You are thinking of the 900.

 

[Ragiska]

Don't get me started on the display of the refresh mode though. The manual says it's supposed to display the capacity of the last cycle but in practice it never ever changes. For me.

it displays the HIGHEST discharge capacity attained. you have to cycle the display to see it.

Also the 700 does not lower the current if multiple cells are inserted. You are thinking of the 900.

no, the 900 doesn't lower either. it can do 1A on all 4 channels

 

[TakeTheActive]

Your BC-700 Is 'Probably' Working Just Fine...

...Don't get me started on the display of the refresh mode though. The manual says it's supposed to display the capacity of the last cycle but in practice it never ever changes. For me...

Try this 'Experiment' (when you're available to monitor the results):

1. DISCHARGE a healthy, vibrant cell to 0.9VDC in REFRESH Mode
2. Partially CHARGE the cell with ~100mAh (either TIME it while still in REFRESH mode, or remove / reinsert the cell and select CHARGE mode)
3. Remove / reinsert the cell and select REFRESH mode (1000/500 would be PREFERRED so that you can see the results quickly BUT you're limited to 700/350 )
4. *IF* you're up to it, REPEAT this 'Experiment' with a *CRAP* cell

If I were to guess, I'd say that:

• Your cell is reaching a CAPACITY (let's say 1960mAh for a 2000mAh AA LSD) on REFRESH1
• The BC-700 is re-starting to 'try to BEAT THAT NUMBER' :rock:
• Your cell is reaching a 'slightly lower' CAPACITY (let's say 1955mAh) on REFRESH2
• The BC-700 is re-starting to CHARGE the cell one final time and STOP :thanks:

...Also the 700 does not lower the current if multiple cells are inserted. You are thinking of the 900.

Nope. AFAIK, they *ALL* (BC-700/BC-900/BC-9009) work the same.

it displays the HIGHEST discharge capacity attained. you have to cycle the display to see it...

While I'll certainly agree that that PITA "Full" display in REFRESH mode is annoying (Is it TEST that toggles 'correctly'? I'm too lazy right now to check the 'probably incomplete' manual and honestly, I can't remember ), I have to give core the 'Benefit-of-the-Doubt' that he already knows that.

 

[core]

it displays the HIGHEST discharge capacity attained. you have to cycle the display to see it.

Highest? Hrmm oops, that might explain it. Unfortunately that means my cells always go downhill after the first cycle rather than improving. :mecry:

Edit: TTA, yeah I'd agree, the cell is just getting charged more fully on the first cycle most likely. Due to it already having been charged and sitting for a while before the first 'charge'. If I'd have started with a completely discharged cell I'm sure I'd get different results. I'm cognizant of the dynamics of it all; I just didn't realize it was the highest reading that was displayed.

no, the 900 doesn't lower either. it can do 1A on all 4 channels

It does lower, from 1.5A-1.8A when 2 cells are being charged in the outermost slots, down to 1.0A otherwise.

 

[TakeTheActive]

You're Expecting TOO Much Quality for TOO Little Cash...

Highest? Hrmm oops, that might explain it. Unfortunately that means my cells always go downhill after the first cycle rather than improving. :mecry:

Edit: TTA, yeah I'd agree, the cell is just getting charged more fully on the first cycle most likely...

Nope on both statements. :sigh:

IMHO, you're expecting too tight a TOLERANCE from such *INEXPENSIVE* OTC devices. :hahaha:

...I just didn't realize it was the highest reading that was displayed.

Well, the manual did get THAT part right!

 

[Ragiska]

It does lower, from 1.5A-1.8A when 2 cells are being charged in the outermost slots, down to 1.0A otherwise.

kinda sorta. it is capable of a HIGHER current when only 2 cells are charged. the nominal charge/discharge functions are for 4 cells, with the higher current with 2 cells being more of a "turbo" feature.

 

[core]

Re: You Expecting TOO Much Quality for TOO Little Cash...

IMHO, you're expecting too tight a TOLERANCE from such *INEXPENSIVE* OTC devices. :hahaha:

Ok, ok, these aren't Fluke caliber devices, but c'mon, I've got pages and pages of notes where I did actually sit there and monitor cycles on many cells. In all cases the readings that I got when I cycled through the display were exactly the same as the first cycle. And man, that took some patience catching each cycle, I might add. Also perhaps noteworthy is the fact that many of these sessions had 3 cycles logged, not 2. That's a whole different issue though I suppose.

If it was "just" a tolerance issue, I would think I would have seen just as many where the 2nd cycle was slightly above rather than below. I'm going to stick with my 'fuller charge' statement, because it's either that or the temperature increase in the charger or cells, caused by the cycle itself.

You're fond of your 'Experiment', which among other things demonstrates that you get a higher actual charge at a lower charge rate. This is not surprising. But closely related is a high 1C charge followed by a resting period followed by another 1C topoff. Similar, no? This is _definitely_ the case for lead acid (my expertise), but I'm just assuming a similar situation would be true for NiMH.

kinda sorta. it is capable of a HIGHER current when only 2 cells are charged. the nominal charge/discharge functions are for 4 cells, with the higher current with 2 cells being more of a "turbo" feature.

LOL ok now we're getting into semantics. The manual surely doesn't say that 1800 is 'above nominal'. At any rate, this is the only thing that sprung to my mind when I read the OP's statements, which otherwise would be completely baseless. Fair enough?

 

[Ragiska]

Re: You Expecting TOO Much Quality for TOO Little Cash...

LOL ok now we're getting into semantics. The manual surely doesn't say that 1800 is 'above nominal'. At any rate, this is the only thing that sprung to my mind when I read the OP's statements, which otherwise would be completely baseless. Fair enough?

actually the manual does portray the >1A rates as a-typical, and there are no corresponding discharge rates.

 

[TakeTheActive]

Re: You Expecting TOO Much Quality for TOO Little Cash...

Ok, ok, these aren't Fluke caliber devices, but c'mon, I've got pages and pages of notes where I did actually sit there and monitor cycles on many cells. In all cases the readings that I got when I cycled through the display were exactly the same as the first cycle...

You're limited by the equipment available to you.

IME, during repeated REFRESH cycles (on my C9000, where you can request 10 cycles and it'll do 10 cycles regardless of the outcome), the CAPACITY of healthy, vibrant cells (usually) goes DOWN while the CAPACITY of unhealthy, ignored *CRAP* cells (usually) goes UP.
(I can bore everyone with SEVERAL examples from my ASCII Tables, but decided not to.)

...You're fond of your 'Experiment', which among other things demonstrates that you get a higher actual charge at a lower charge rate....

I use that term quite often for a variety of challenges - I didn't refer to 'higher actual charge' in this thread so you're going to have to be more specific and QUOTE a specific post when referring back to it...
(In this thread, I *DID* POKE FUN at the BC-700 vs BC-900 Maximum Charge Rates)

...LOL ok now we're getting into semantics. The manual surely doesn't say that 1800 is 'above nominal'. At any rate, this is the only thing that sprung to my mind when I read the OP's statements, which otherwise would be completely baseless. Fair enough?

For the BC-900/BC-9009, Charge Rates of 1500mA and 1800mA are 'Special':

1. They're ONLY available for Slots #1 & 4 (Slots #2 & 3 are disabled)
2. They have no accompanying Discharge Rate (i.e. they are CHARGE ONLY; no DISCHARGE, TEST or REFRESH modes)

Call them what you like...

Unless you are referring to the 'unusual' behavior of the La Crosse "Constant Current" circuitry when charging High Internal Resistance / *CRAP* cells (i.e. it 'sometimes' varies from the PRESET mA *WAY* DOWN and then comes back UP), while with healthy, vibrant cells WYSIWYG (What-You-SET-Is-What-You-Get).

 

[core]

Re: You Expecting TOO Much Quality for TOO Little Cash...

IME, during repeated REFRESH cycles (on my C9000, where you can request 10 cycles and it'll do 10 cycles regardless of the outcome), the CAPACITY of healthy, vibrant cells (usually) goes DOWN while the CAPACITY of unhealthy, ignored *CRAP* cells (usually) goes UP.

Hrmm... your tests actually show vibrant cells decreasing in capacity with each cycle? That's very interesting, and would also be the other obvious explanation. That's somewhat like being able to watch the hands of a clock move.

I've never taken a cell out of "the bag" after years and put it on refresh cycles. Only after a few other more manual approaches have I done so. This has some merit, but is contrary to the tolerance hypothesis as well.

I use that term quite often for a variety of challenges - I didn't refer to 'higher actual charge' in this thread so you're going to have to be more specific and QUOTE a specific post when referring back to it...

You are quite right. In this thread you did not mention 'higher actual charge'. Higher effective charge would have been more accurate for me to say. And here's your quote, as requested. 'Higher effective charge' implied by the reverse here.

• The LOWER the Discharge Current, the HIGHER the (perceived) Capacity.
  *AND*
• The HIGHER the Charge Current, the LOWER the (effective) Charge.

(snip)
Since you're a CPF / C9000 Newbie :welcome:, try this 'Experiment'

:
(9 part 'Experiment' with 256color rendering snipped)

 

[dcj8913]

Thanks to all who took the time to reply. Nothing like learning more than one expected, eh? :tinfoil:

In regards to the rumor of cells receiving less power as additional cells (more than one) are plugged into the BC-700....I shall never again consider that to be a possibility. I read numerous forums, reviews, opinions, ect about the BC-700, and this was one line item that I saw more than once. Myth busted!

The BC-700 has a refresh cycle, and actually it's quite hard to miss just clicking through the modes.

Correct. I saw and have since used this option on the BC-700. BUT, I am under the impression that it is not nearly as effective as the Maha C9000. From research I have read, the BC overestimates the total capacity and does not put as much 'umph' into the cells (700 mAh vs 700 mAh for fairness).

This is one reason why I purchased the Maha. I figure I will use that for cell recycling (50/100 uses and refresh) and break-ins, and the BC-700 for daily charges / traveling purposes.

With no comments on the CR123's, is it safe to assume I am spot on? Avoid the charger world and just buy the throw-away lithium's for use?

Thanks CPF!