Best 'building disaster' light

[Roy]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

For those working in the Government.....replace the bulb in your bent-neck with one of the PR based led mods! Take a Marks 'alot and put you name all over the light.

 

[John N]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

I see there are a couple of issues here:

1) Can you depend on having a routine maint. for the lights?

If so, a D cell light would probably be best. It just has a lot more juice than the AA and C cell lights. However, it appears there are not a lot of good non-Mag D cell lights around. It seems like 3-4 cells would be optimal giving the light enough voltage to run fairly bright lamp assemblies, but not so big as to become awkward.

I haven't noticed if anyone has reviewed them here, but the Streamlight 2D Twin-Task light comes to mind.

The Lightwave 4000 also sounds interesting, but obviously it won't have as much throw.

If you drop down to a C cell based light, the options open up a bit:

Pelican:

Super Saberlight (3C). Sounds pretty good - 3 cells makes it fairly compact, it's waterproof, and comes in orange and yellow. Runtime is listed as 5-6 hrs. Lamp is 3.4W. Maybe not quite as bright as you might like.

M10 Alkaline (4C). A bit longer, but otherwise ok. Listed as 30K CP w/6 hr runtime. Comes in yellow.

Princeton Tech: Tec 400, 4C batteries, 49 lumans, runtime 4-5 hrs. Odd form factor - anyone here have one?

Streamlight:

3C Xenon ProPolymer. Comes in yellow, 12K CP, 5.5 hr runtime.

Twin Tasklight 3C. Sounds excellent for this use. 3LED, 6LED or xenon bulb. Bulb 70 lumens. Runtime 3 hrs bulb, 100 hrs 3LED, 160 hrs 6 LED. Any reviews?

UK:

Sunlight SL4 (4C) - Yellow, 113 lumens (yea), 4-5 hr runtime. Would be my pick except for the doubled up form factor. Anyone here have one and care to comment on the ergonomics?

UK 300 (3C) - Yellow, 52.8 lumens, 4-5 hrs.


2) If you can't depend on routine maint., you probably want a lithium light. The gotcha is as others have pointed out -- they are sorta too small and possibly prone to walking off on their own.

The UK 2L in yellow.

Streamlight Twin Tasklight 2L.


3) I'm surprised more people haven't suggested rechargables. It seems like this wouldn't be a bad option, do a wall mount charger. I did this at my place of work, but only for our group.

Streamlight Stinger HP comes to mind.

Magcharger would work.


4) I would plan on having a personal light by the way of my EDC. This has been hashed to death, but IMO your selections should cover this use.


-john

 

[Blackbeagle]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

Sorry, but I'd have to vote for Maglite - 2D to 4D size. My justifications:

Cheap, readily available in singles or in bulk quantities. I'm sure Peter would love to get a bulk order for 150+ ArcLS and he'd certainly move heaven and earth to deliver, but for Mag, this wouldn't even make the sales manager yawn. Some of your exotics couldn't be supplied readily. Mag might even laser engrave if you get a large enough order.

Takes standard batteries. The CR123 is still too exotic. In bulk quantities, I can still get "D" alkalines good for 5 years at a price that would enable me to supply a half dozen or so lights for the costs of a single set of CR123's.

Sheer toughness. Need to break through a wall, batter down a stuck door, break a lock? Try that with a polymer light or with a smaller light like the LS or the Inova X5. There's a reason Mag's are still carried for defense purposes. If your building starts to collapse and you need to prop up a small space to avoid getting crushed, would you like a Mag or something handsize? If you need to break out a window, Mags can be thrown through windows where polymers or smaller lights would bounce off. (Say you're inside with a raging fire and want to call attention to yourself from the firefighters outside. Of course, hopefully you didn't bean one of them in the process.)

Yeah, the light doesn't last as long as a LED. But it is usually brighter than smaller LED lights. In an evac situation, you usually don't need it to last too long. Are you really planning to sit around for 10+ hours in a burning building? If you need long term light, you'd need to cycle between lights and conserve power anyway. And over long durations, standard batteries are easier to get. (Though this may be arguable.)

Yep, it is incandescent and tends to be able to break when dropped, but then that is why you should hopefully have several of them. Also, you do at least have one spare.

I'd change the lens to amber or red to cut through smoke. Fog lights are supposedly these colors since the wavelength is longer and it penetrates through particulates better than shorter wavelengths like blue.

 

[paulr]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

I think there's also a wall mount for the Mags.

 

[chamenos]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

my vote would be for a 3D maglite too for the reasons blackbeagle mentioned....nice balance in size and output, cheap, and readily available /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

 

[bj]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

Wow, thanks everybody. I guess hanging out here had got me a bit jaded. The 'industrial' 2D lights probably aren't that bad a choice after all.

I have to agree that lithiums may be overkill. It's not like it's that hard to set up a program of changing batteries yearly (though there's not one in place at the moment). Smaller, more exotic lights may tend to grow legs, especially since they need to be placed where they're pretty obvious so they can be grabbed as you leave.

I do think a more robust light, like a Mag, would have been a better choice over the yellow plastic we've got. Good reasoning there.

I wouldn't expect an evacuation to be a big deal, we're only in a four story building with very little combustible material. The bigger concern might be the shelter in place scenario which we have, where we could be in interior utility areas, potentially with no power.

It's interesting to note that of the well over 1000 people at this facility, only our group of 40 has really thought much about this, purchasing the lights and extra high-powered HT's (to add to the ones we use for commo on the firing range). Our boss has also been good about insuring that everyone has a copy of the evac/shelter plans, and has physically shown everybody where our particular interior niche is for sheltering in place. Though we're a military laboratory, I guess our location in the suburbs has most people feeling nothing could happen here. They're probably right, but...


Thanks again for all the input, I think it's a timely topic.

-bj

 

[JonSidneyB]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

Hmmmm, the price just jumped but Lambda modified Maglights with Amber Luxeons....

 

[2dogs]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

I should have mentioned a few boxes of light sticks (kept locked away) would help to cut down battery consumption during times when a group is taking shelter.

I agree a 2 or 3 cell light made of aluminum in a tubular shape would fit the bill. Engraving is a great idea too.

 

[paulr]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

If it's a 1000 person building there should definitely be an evacuation plan, suitable permanently installed emergency lights leading to the exits, an annual fire drill, the whole bit. I don't see the need for flashlights and especially don't see the need for flashlights that can run for hours and hours. The idea is get out of the building and go somewhere else. That shouldn't take hours. If you're worried about getting trapped in rubble, you want an avalanche beacon, not a flashlight.

 

[bj]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

paulr -

We've got a plan, we have the drills, emergency lighting is built into the fixtures, and we have some very large backup generators with thousands of gallons of fuel. I think the concern of late is more the terrorist threat, where we might evacuate differently or shelter in place. This also includes the other threats such as bombs and your typical fire.

Certainly the first concern is to get out, usually. Having endured the DC sniper last year, there is also concern along those lines, moving to interior spaces. Chem/bio threats are also on the radar, shelter in place. Car bombs, move further back in the compound to other buildings, etc.

The whole lighting thing probably should have been an issue long ago, because you're more likely to need them in event of a fire or power failure. It's just kind of gotten noticed recently with all the other things going on.

Again, as far as lighting goes, daylight is our friend. Not many of us are here after dark (except in the winter when it gets dark early), so you're really just talking about the (hopefully) few minutes it takes to get out of the building, or the somewhat longer time you might be sheltering inside if there's also a power and generator failure.

Kind of makes it sound like lighting shouldn't really be an issue, and based on how most groups here are handling it, it isn't. We're not in some big high-rise where the windows are few and it can take 30 minutes to walk down the stairs, so maybe this is much ado about nothing in our case.

I still think it's an interesting discussion though.

bj

 

[brightnorm]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

[ QUOTE ]
bj said:

Kind of makes it sound like lighting shouldn't really be an issue, and based on how most groups here are handling it, it isn't. We're not in some big high-rise where the windows are few and it can take 30 minutes to walk down the stairs, so maybe this is much ado about nothing in our case.

I still think it's an interesting discussion though.

bj

[/ QUOTE ]

bj,

Logic dictates that you're right about reduced risk in a low rise building. But logic doesn't dictate emergencies. I think of an emergency as an unexpected event of unknown duration, and it's better to have too much light than not enough.

2D or 3D MAGS with an Everleds dropin or other LED will give you a shock resistant light of adaquate brightness and very long burn.

I appreciate your concern for a general lighting/escape strategy for your building and your many colleagues, but as a Flashaholic your own survival may be at least partly determined by your personal EDC. During 9/11 I was uncomfortably close to the action though not in immediate physical danger, and a colleague was in Tower 1 but managed to escape. Since then I have reordered my EDC and now think in terms of duration as well as brightness, portability and other factors. I never leave the house without at least 14 hours of light on my person.

I work with about 200 colleagues in a building that is quite well guarded, but frustratingly unprepared for the physical consequences of an emergency. My lights and Flashaholism are a joke to many of them, but I have quietly and insistantly equipped the few colleagues I feel close to with minimal EDC which they have promised to carry at all times. I gave them a choice of UK 2L, ARC AAA or MAG/BB/MM . ARC Luxeons and Surefire KL1's were just too expensive for me to give away. Most chose black 2L's. Each one also got two spare SF 123's to remain untouched until needed. I was disappointed recently to learn that Lithium shelf life and use life were quite different. That's why those spare batteries are so important.

Brightnorm

 

[paulr]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

Norm, can you describe a plausible emergency situation where you'd need 14 hours of light, especially bright light (more than keychain-LED level)? I can imagine getting caught without light for several days, like in a long power outage, but most of the time in such an event I'd probably be staying in one place at night and wouldn't need constant light. If caught in a collapsing skyscraper I just don't see how even a Surefire M6 and 14 hours worth of batteries for it could have done me any good. I'd much rather have some powerbars and drinking water, first aid stuff, a small FRS or 2 meter radio, that kind of thing.

I admire you for giving such nice lights away. You have more serious taste in "minimal EDC" than I do. I've been giving out those $1.00 keychain lights from Countycomm. I really think that's enough for most emergencies, though a light with a constant-on switch would be better. People hike the whole Appalachian Trail with nothing but a Photon II. I realize we're flashaholics here but maybe we're going a little overboard about lights.

 

[FC.]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

 

[2dogs]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

Paulr I hate to be the one to tell you but you are wrong about it not taking hours to evacuate large buildings. The worst case example was the WTC. It was estimated that an orderly evac of a damaged WTC could take up to 12 hours. Now picture that evac beginning at say 3:00pm in December.
9-11 cancelled that of course but if you will remember back, how long after the impacts did the building collapse and how many (live) occupants were in the building? Orderly evacs take a long time, light dust and smoke obscure emergency lights, a flashlight could be a life saver. Disorderly evacs kill people due to panic and selfishness. Many people are afraid of the dark and (add a little dust for those who are claustrophobic) will panic. Emergency lights, GITD exit stripes near the floor, plainly marked uasable exits are all needed, but a little help in the way of personal lights just may save lives. If those things were all that was needed then FFs could leave their lights on the engine and run up the stairs in jogging shoes and shorts. After all the building is probably "fire proof".

 

[paulr]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

I guess you're right about evacuating skyscrapers potentially taking a long time, though (because the elevators worked) they used to basically evacuate the WTC every day at around 5 pm (i.e. everyone who worked there went home for the day.

Even during a 12 hour evacuation I wouldn't expect to need a flashlight continuously for 12 hours. A minute or two here or there maybe. If the smoke is so thick that the emergency lights don't let you see where you're going, you'll suffocate long before your light runs out.

 

[monanza]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

I have a question for those in the S&R/Firefighting fields. Is it better in a smoke filled environment to use a clear lens with an incandescent or use a (long wavelength) filter? I tend to lean towards using clear lens. Even if the extra light is just scattered it would act as a short range globe of light (or would it be too bright and counter effective?).

Cheers.

 

[2dogs]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

My last post got me thinking about a personal experience that many shared with me. On 17 October 1989 the Loma Prieta earthquake struck. The epicenter was 11 miles from my house and the downtown area. The quake happened at 5:04pm and lasted 15 seconds and was a 7.1. I was OD that day but was just out of the city limits getting ready to ride my horse, and no, none of the horses showed any sign of the upcomming quake. The weather was beautiful and warm, a balmy indian summer afternoon. After the shaking stopped downtown and people ran out of the buildings they congregated in the streets. And listened to the screaming of those trapped or injured. Before the FD cleared the station houses recues were taking place. Even at the collapsed buildings would be rescuers swarmed over the rubble (unreinforced masonry) moving bricks to get at those trapped. This effort went on all night in the dark. There was no power save for generators on the fire apparatus. Over the next 2 weeks volunteers and FFs worked in town side by side (sort of). I played a sigificant roll in that effort and saw first hand what a few cave man tools can do compared to a Heavy Rescue engine with untrained personell.
After a few days we stopped working round the clock and went to 10 operational period. I met the oncomming crews at the restaurant, signed for their meal and gave a breifing. At the end of the day I was last out and secured the staging area. LEOs and security guards stayed on duty all night. I found out there were several neccesities. Aspirin, dust masks, drinking water and flashlight batteries. I have no idea how many batteries were used in those first few days, but it was alot. Period. Many of the lights were carried the volunteer rescuers the first night. Lights came from everywhere as did volunteers. Yes they evaced out of the mostly one and two story buildings downtown in a few minutes, but they didn't leave. Who could with people still trapped.

You may get out of your building in a few minutes paul but I bet you won't leave untill the work is complete or handed off to the pros. I think most people here would want to help if they can. Some with flashlights, some with radios, others with prayers. Lets hope nothing like this happens to you or your loved ones but if it does I hope you're prepared.

 

[paulr]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

If I was helping a rescue effort that went on all night, I think I could leave the scene for long enough minutes to get batteries from somewhere and get enough for everyone, like a few cases of D cells or something, or radio out for someone else to bring batteries, or whatever. Carrying 14 hours worth of batteries in my pocket for just the wimpy EDC lights I have on me (Arc AAA, Photon II) still doesn't seem that useful. A 14 hour rescue is going to have to have people and supplies (food, etc) going in and out, and batteries can be part of the supplies.

 

[brightnorm]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

[ QUOTE ]
paulr said:
Norm, can you describe a plausible emergency situation where you'd need 14 hours of light, especially bright light (more than keychain-LED level)? .... I realize we're flashaholics here but maybe we're going a little overboard about lights.

[/ QUOTE ]

paulr,

2dogs gave a good answer to your question, but I agree with you that I may tend in the direction of overkill.

I have a particular fear of being trapped or closed in, especially in the dark. a kind of claustrophopbia. I've had that fear for many years and I believe it was intensified by some incidents in my past including nearly drowning and surviving a private plane crash. Of course many people go through even worse experiences without such hangups, but everyone is different.

I saw 9/11 as a shocking wakeup call that I would be foolish to ignore. IMO The important thing is to take a hard-headed look at reality and make decisions that you're comfortable with. As Flashaholics we are better prepared than most people.

BTW, when it comes to certain types of lighting I take FC's recommendations very seriously. He's been where most of us haven't.

Brightnorm

 

[2dogs]

Re: Best \'building disaster\' light

No light really cuts through smoke. I wish one did! Passive IR works (I hear) to locate bodies. In dense smoke (daytime inside a building) you can't see your hand in front of your face. One of the first things taught in fire fighting is how to crawl search a building with a partner. The FFs mask is covered over so no light gets through and then you're sent in a familiar building with the contents rearranged. Very disorienting. I've seen rookies give up on a drill in the station house. Next you move to the burn roon at the tower. Take a simple 20x20 room, add a smoke machine, throw in a couple of Goodwill reject couches and tables and watch the fun. Lastly, under strictly controlled conditions, add fire, HEAT, smoke, noise and adrenalin. These last two are done with a regular BA mask. Can't see a darn thing with a flashlight or without. You operate by feel and training.

Try this at 0dark:thirty with screaming parents and an apartment building you've never seen before. If there was a better light the FDs use it. Our FD isssued Pelican Super Sabre Lights (3C). They worked pretty well. Of course I carried my own arsenal of lights as well. SF 6P (converted to rechargeable) in my turnout pants pocket, SL SL20X in my gear bag (mostly for medicals). Plus the dept supplied SL "Lightbox" on the engine, Easter Seal headlamp for wildland, and some goofy Kohler lights nobody used.