Combat course & E1E....

[imfrogman]

For the average citizen(non-leo) a weapon mounted light is probably the stupidest thing you could ever do. It violates the basic principle of gun safety. NEVER POINT A WEAPON AT SOMETHING YOU DO NOT INTEND TO SHOOT. I'm sure I can come up with 100's of scenerios
to point this out.

 

[Robocop]

I have never used a strobe function and for personal reasons do not believe I ever will. By pulsing I am saying that I will often turn my light off and on in between searching rooms or whatever I am doing at the time. This keeps my light on for brief seconds only and does not allow a target to get a fix on my position.

When I raise my weapon up on target I only activate my light once I have the weapon level and ready to fire. After firing I have learned to shut my light off before I drop my weapon so as not to "track" my movements. This allows any hostiles to only see my light when I am firing or ready to fire and as I move I am under cover of darkness.

 

[signal 13]

It seems reasonable to have a weaponlight on your weapon :thinking:

It sure does, but unfortunately some departments like mine, don't allow them. They seem to think that SWAT is the only unit that ever has a need for a weaponlight. Nothing can be further from the truth.

 

[werdnawee]

Great story and a great set-up indeed.

Even though I use mine for the house and nightwalking instead of with a handgun.

 

[Lightraven]

I remember clearly what is the worst low light training I ever got a few years ago.

I was on the firing line, alone, back to the range, with a range officer. He says, "Turn around and solve the problem." Close to me were two bad guys with guns, and a third bad guy holding a hostage. I shoot bad guys 1 and 2, then 3 in the head. Further downrange is another target in darkness. I kneel and "take cover" and observe. The range officer says, "OK, do you have a flashlight?" "No," I said. At the time, I didn't always bring flashlights to training because we rarely needed them.

"So what are you going to do?"
"I'll just watch from cover and see what he does, see if he moves into light where I can see him clearly or if he shoots at someone."
"Are you going to challenge him?"
"No, I think I'll just observe for now."
"OK. Holster your gun. Let's walk downrange." He shines his flashlight on the target and as we get closer, I see the target holding a badge. Off duty/plain clothes cop, probably. Then, I start seeing bulletholes in the cop. Lots of 'em. Wow, I thought, our guys really screwed up.

During the debriefing, the range officer says, "Everybody did well on that last scenario. . .except you (nodding to me). You didn't shoot the last target. I know you forgot your flashlight, but you need to do something. Even though everybody else had flashlights, they either didn't see the badge or couldn't tell what it was or something, so everybody shot him. Good job, everyone (not sarcastic)."

Wait, I don't shoot the cop, and I messed up? I was dumbfounded--I literally could not speak I was so amazed. I know, I should have a flashlight, but that wasn't what he was saying. Officers were being told to shoot someone they couldn't identify as a deadly force threat!

It brought home how important a super-bright flashlight is (because dirt, debris, water vapor and smoke may make the air cloudy) and how bad training can be worse than no training. I don't have 20/20 vision either, but that won't be much of an excuse for shooting an innocent.

 

[SureAddicted]

It sure does, but unfortunately some departments like mine, don't allow them. They seem to think that SWAT is the only unit that ever has a need for a weaponlight. Nothing can be further from the truth.

+1
Having a weaponlight can sometimes be a disadvantage, perps shooting at the light source isnt optimal for the user, and I have seen a lot of officer's keep the weaponlight on for extended periods. For training it's ok, but not in the real world. Ofcouse, this doesn't apply for all situations/applications.

 

[one417]

Surefire Institute's Low-Light combat courses are great. They do offer plenty of optional holds as well as pros and cons. I find myself using certain techniques as my default during combat stress scenarios. We teach users in my agency to use a handheld as a primary light for searching. But I have to say that sor our LCD's (lowest common denominators ;)), a weapon mounted light along with a two handed shooting grip serves them better in combat shooting drills. During our low-light quals, we have our students shoot with different techniques as a warmup then use the handheld technique of their preference during the qual. We also have them shoot with their weapon lights as well as laser sights as part of the low-light training. As far as I'm concerned, the low-light technique that one pratices with is the one that will ultimately work for them in combat......Pratic, practice, practice.

 

[B'hamFAL]

.... Our past night courses were all single strings of fire with time to reload so the fast paced combat course was new and fun........

By far the best trip to the range I've had if you don't count rifle qualifications. And I say that even though I managed my worst score ever on one course. Shoot even the shotgun stage was good this time. We should be out there at least once a quarter for this stuff.

My 9p doesn't have a lanyard at the moment either. I just dropped it back in its' baton holder as usual instead of fumbling with it somewhere else. The light is the 2nd most used tool on my belt and I've even developed some muscle memory as far as deploying and storing it. Radio is first if anyone was wondering.

 

[Mdinana]

Just an anecdotal story about "training like you fight." Probably 10+ years ago now, there was a CHP (California Highway Patrol) officer that got involved in a gun battle on a traffic stop. He was eventually found dead, where the stop was, with several bullet casings in his pocket, and an empty pistol.

Seems that normal training is that the CHP officers police up their brass. When he emptied his magazine, he habitually started picking up used brass, instead of reloading and continuing to address the perp. While cleaning up, the perp came over and shot him.

Anyway, back on topic... I never considered an E-series for a weapon course, but it's small size makes holding it potentially easier - interesting thought. I'll keep it in the back of my mind if I ever need to get qualified in real life!

 

[Robocop]

I do like the night fire best and wish they would use many more of the running combt courses. I have a new found respect for the little lanyard and will try to find a way to attatch one to my D36 Raider now.

 

[one417]

Just an anecdotal story about "training like you fight." Probably 10+ years ago now, there was a CHP (California Highway Patrol) officer that got involved in a gun battle on a traffic stop. He was eventually found dead, where the stop was, with several bullet casings in his pocket, and an empty pistol.

Seems that normal training is that the CHP officers police up their brass. When he emptied his magazine, he habitually started picking up used brass, instead of reloading and continuing to address the perp. While cleaning up, the perp came over and shot him.

The unfortunate scenario actually happened in 1970. Four CHP officers were killed during a shootout in Newhall, Ca. It was later found that the victim officers had expended casings in their pockets. Apparently, during the CHP's firearms training (at that time), the officers reloaded their revolvers by emptying the cylinders and placing the expended casings in their pockets before doing re-loads. This practice (many feel) was one that may had contributed to the officers losing the fight.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/05/local/me-chp5

 

[Lightraven]

It has been widely reported on the "brass in pocket" of one of the dead officers. I've also read that is a myth of the fight, but the point is no myth, by a long shot: People under high stress tend to follow their instincts or their habits, whichever dominates.

During some more recent dynamic training (i.e. run and gun), I and others have bent down to pick up empty mags. Why? Because in most of my instructed training, mags are recovered before moving to a new position during typical shooting drills ("Now grab anything you dropped and move back to the 15 yard line.") So, I got scolded for it, yeah, yeah, yeah, but who's training me (in effect) to do that? The instructor.

Training is more realistic than 1970, but it still has a long, long way to go.

 

[Robocop]

I honestly believe that repitition has much more to do with tactics than actual training. You can train a few times per year and believe me most people forget the training within the first few hours of finishing the class.....do something over and over again and it pretty much stays with you.

I saw a video of an actual police shooting where the officer was a highly trained veteran officer with 18 years of experience. He was also a competitive shooter with hundreds of wins to his name....so he could obviously shoot very well.

The problem was he spent so much time shooting competition courses it became second nature for him to shoot as if in competition. Many of the standard courses fired will be draw from the holster and fire 2 rounds then back to holster....draw again and fire two rounds....so on and so on.

The video showed this officer taking serious fire from a close range and he would fire two rounds and then holster his weapon....he would then draw again and fire two rounds each time and back to holster. He was actually shot twice and each time his weapon was holstered. He did survive and managed to kill the bad guy however he was hurt bad enough he had to retire.

My point is that in spite of all his training classes he actually used none of the special training....he did what he did most and that was draw...fire two rounds....back to holster. When later asked what he was thinking he replied I was not thinking....he said he did not remember any of it and it was simply instinct and repitition and not training he fell back on when under fire.

True story and an amazing video to watch....it was so shocking to see him getting shot and actually holstering his weapon up. Most people do not actually know what a true stress situation is. Sure you can have noise and distractions on the firing line when qualification comes around but this is nothing compared to a true survival situation.

Believe me when I saw fine motor skills are gone....period they are gone and no one can say otherwise. I know many will say train,train,train and you can remedy tunnel vision and stress reactions. Well you may can make them less of a problem but you will never totally remove them....again I am talking in a true under fire situation and not a simple high risk entry or felony stop but a bad guy throwing lead your way in a darkened alley type scenario.

Your hands go to mush....time really does slow to a crawl....yes it does feel like you are running in mud...and you do lose alot of your peripherial vision to focus more on the threat. It is not everyday I learn something however this type scenario and this thread about the E1E and lanyard has taught me something.....as what I thought myself to be an experienced officer I never had an idea a lanyard could be so important....holy smoke was I wrong about that and this is why I am trying to find a way to get my Raider up to speed with a lanyard.

 

[B'hamFAL]

Makes you appreciate why they tell you to scan for other threats before dropping your weapon to the ready or reholstering.

Keep in mind with a lanard if your hand isn't already in it before it starts you're gonna have a hell of a time getting your hand in there under stress. I think I'll still get a lanyard ring for my 9p anyway.

 

[Lightraven]

What about running a lanyard or length of coiled cord like telephone cord to an epaulet, belt, vest or some other part of the uniform, rather than your wrist?

 

[rph]

I wouldn't do that. With any reasonably sized lanyard, this would limit mobility too much. A longer lanyard would increase the FU potential due to tangles or choking hazard.

At night, if I'm not driving (and I'm a trainer, so the probie is usually driving) the Surefire Aviator is usually hanging from my left wrist by a lanyard. When it's not there, it's in my back pocket.

I use the Aviator for initial contacts, given the two stages of light from the push button. A Fenix 2xAA is the backup/search light, for the cheaper batteries and increased flexibility. The Fenix is just too much work for the fast adjustment I need in initial contacts, though it's perfect for the detail work.

I was glad to see this thread. I've heard crap from the "pretty police" for a long time about lanyards and multiple lights. When you try to explain it to them, they don't listen. I stopped trying a while back. A good lanyard, with the right light, can make all the difference in the world in ugly situations.

So far as speed in securing the lanyard...I wouldn't worry about the lanyard if speed was the issue...

Of course, habits work in both directions. A few months back, facing a suicidal stalker, he was in the car, with the probie parked in the perfect position to take fire, and reported to have a gun. He refused to comply with orders, reached into the center console, and things started to move fast. Facing two pistols, with no chance to hit both (the probie chose poorly and was in a good line of fire...I'd moved further to the rear of his car and had both a good shooting angle and some cover), he gave up. He came out empty-handed and I took him down with the probie covering. Forgetting that I hadn't taken time to slip my wrist through the lanyard, I let go of the light and it landed by his head.

"Uhh...nice light..."
"Thanks, Chief...you're under arrest..."

The probie got a laugh...right before the "you almost got shot" speech...

If it's on, I use it. If it's not and I have time, I put it on. If I don't have time, I try to handle the immediate threat (and then drop my light by his head, apparently)...

 

[Sabre]

Just an anecdotal story about "training like you fight." Probably 10+ years ago now, there was a CHP (California Highway Patrol) officer that got involved in a gun battle on a traffic stop. He was eventually found dead, where the stop was, with several bullet casings in his pocket, and an empty pistol.

Seems that normal training is that the CHP officers police up their brass. When he emptied his magazine, he habitually started picking up used brass, instead of reloading and continuing to address the perp. While cleaning up, the perp came over and shot him.

Anyway, back on topic... I never considered an E-series for a weapon course, but it's small size makes holding it potentially easier - interesting thought. I'll keep it in the back of my mind if I ever need to get qualified in real life!

Sounds like you're talking about the "Newhall incident"

A synopsis from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Highway_Patrol#Newhall_Incident

 

[T3hk1w1]

Ya, our CH instructor told my class about that incident as a reason to drop your mags when reloading at the range. Keeping this on-topic, I'd never really thought about the need to hold onto a light while reloading. Makes me rethink my nightstand setup...

 

[Robocop]

We have 3 shifts in my department with days being 7am-3pm, evening shift of 3pm-11pm, and nights being 11pm-7am.....so in other words we have 2/3 of the entire department spending most of their shift in the dark. With the time change and winter months it gets dark faster and almost all of my shift is in the dark.

I also have never really thought of how important low light tactics are and am shocked at how little my department offers in the form of training for low light shooting. As a flashaholic I was already pretty up to speed on various lights and naturally able to shoot well at night....however I saw several co-workers who not only had crappy lights but more so did not know how to shoot properly under low light conditions.

Even though I have worked 3-11pm for 11 years now I never really thought about most of my shift is in the dark. The cool part is that I always have the better lights of any in a group and have taken it for granted many times. It is really sad to see so many co-workers using poor lights for duty.

I recently had a rookie in training and his first day he arrived on duty he showed me his light. He seemed so proud that he had a "fancy LED" as he called it. It was an LED allright however it was one of those 3-AAA versions with the multi 5mm LEDs in the bezel. It threw a beam maybe 10 feety at best and in a combat situation would be simply useless.....and the sad part is he actually thought this was top of the line in equipment.

He is one of many with horrible equipment but more so one of many with the mind set that a light is not really that important....

 

[isc]

I undertook semi automatic 'control security risk using firearm' (read: shoot to stop the offence) training about 10 months ago. Several components needed to be done in low light.

While I did manage to do it sans flashlight, I'm now thinking my SFs should've gotten a work out... and this is an excellent post. Until now, I hadn't really considered the logistics of dropping a Glock mag, whacking that mag home and racking the slide with a 6P in hand.