DIY Sandwich fixture module.

[dat2zip]

I know this will cause major divisions within the troups. I have no clear idea what exactly to do so I will try to present some ideas and then let the discussion continue from there.

Some of you may have seen the new parallel fixture I've been working on, trying to machine or make in some form. In brief this fixture holds the converter board and emitter board with stick installed at the proper height and holds the boards parallel. Once the boards are in the fixture the connectors can be solder to the emitter board and to the converter board completing the sandwich assembly (soldering) step.

Here's a picture of the fixtures and molds.


I have now a machined aluminum fixture which doesn't seem to work as the molded epoxy ones I have also made.

Here's the skinny. I milled two blocks of wood to make a master fixture and from these two I created a Silicon RTV mold where I can duplicate the wood version in Epoxy.

The Epoxy fixture is what I have given to the CM to use in production and they are now testing it. I personally love the epoxy fixture.

Some general observations:

1) Thinking in terms of fellow CPF'ers I want to share this with everyone. As such, I should release this and sell them to CPF.

2) Selling the fixture can backfire. In the hands of an good modder he/she could start producing Sandwiches and start selling back into CPF. This can be viewed good or bad. Good comes from the fact that hopefully he/she would buy the converter, connectors and emitters from the shoppe so the shoppe would benefit from this. It could be bad in the fact that the shoppe sales of Sandwiches drops to near zero with alternative solutions.

So, there you have it. I have a fixture. I could sell the fixture and make more from my molds. What's one to do?

I'm thinking of doing the following.

1st and foremost. Assume CPF'ers are sound reasonable folks that would not take advantage of cutting into someone elses business and sell the fixtures to those who want one.

The caveot would be that I think a signed form, some legal stuff if done correctly would protect my investment and that the fixture would not be used for anything buy personal usage.

I could be opening a big can of worms just discussing it, but, here goes...

What sayeth ye?

Updated 5/9/04 Image removed

 

[wasabe64]

I do agree with the size of the can of worms.

You should be able to deal with some perception issues with a well-worded Accepable Usage contract. Just be ready to accept that there still could be a dramatic drop in Sandwich revenues from the Shoppe. An enterprising person could see the sale of the tool as carte blanche to flood the market with YC-based modules. Not that I am emphatically against that, competition will lower prices and increase variety, you could still win in the end through increased convertor board sales.

Besides, if someone believes that they can turn a buck by making non-YC sandwiches, I'm sure that they can create their own tools/jigs for sandwich assembly.

Just my two cents...

Perhaps I'm over-thinking this?

It's too bad for me that you did not come up with this sooner. I wound up making up my own crude jig.

 

[Flatscan]

This could become a very sticky situation. Here are my thoughts and personal situation:

I am unlikely to buy another complete sandwich from the Shoppe, regardless of jig availability. I am very happy with the two Lux3Ts (MM-Lite, BB750) that I have now, and I will be receiving another sandwich in my FF2. However, I have become somewhat disinclined to the MiniMag form factor and thus have less demand for sandwiches at the present time. I have also done a few soldering projects recently and believe that I can construct a perfectly fine sandwich on my own, with a large investment of my leisure time. (This could change if I fry anything while making my E-Can/E-Sink pill /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

I probably won't buy a jig in the near future, but if I find that I need a sandwich or two, one will go in my shopping cart alongside the requisite boards, assuming a low cost. I would probably take my chances with an E-Can jig if they are too expensive or unavailable.

CPFers are in general upright and just, and I believe that someone looking to cash in would be quickly rebuffed. However, I thought up two situations that will reduce Shoppe sandwich sales without being as obviously exploitative. <ul type="square">[*]selling when sandwiches are unavailable at the Shoppe
[*]the "service" of providing binned Luxes[/list] When the sandwiches sell out at the Shoppe, demand is stored and pent up until they become available again, and the sandwiches fly off the shelf. Someone offering YC-component sandwiches in the interim can bleed this demand dry at near-Shoppe prices, while appearing to help people out.

Someone could offer sandwiches built with completely-specified Lux bin codes and perhaps even sell them at a premium.

 

[tvodrd]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Now if you were offering them for a .200" thick sandwich using a .030" thick emitter heatsink..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

(Sorry Wayne, I couldn't resist. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Larry

 

[gadget_lover]

I'm suprised to see this even mentioned by Wayne if the concern is competition. I say this because once the idea is public, the actual implementation is easy to emulate. As my favorite quote says, "You can successfully build anything once you know it can be done." In context, now that the usefullness of the jig has been publicly stated, it will not take much to recreate one without permission. It might not be the same design, but the same purpose would be achieved.

The Soviet Union "invented" the atom bomb in a matter of years after learning that it was possible.

The concept of making assembly jigs is not new. Every machinist does it to some degree. Most manufacturers do it too. Heck, even I did it with my hi/low springs.

The place for the non-compete agreement is on the sale of the converter boards, not the assembly jigs.

Daniel

 

[snake]

Wayne,
I will keep buying fm u.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
I guess it is hard to complete with the orginal builder with the orginal parts, unless there was lots of margin! the problem is , when mod is short of supply... but someone else have it then it is another question.

 

[mahoney]

I realize you had a great deal of trouble machining your jigs, but the concept is fairly simple and the same results could be achieved with a few different types of jigs. I doubt that someone will be inspired to go into competition with the Shoppe, using Shoppe components, just because this jig is now available. If the market were big enough, I think someone would have already tried it and made their own jig. That said, I see the jig as being a real aid to those of us who want to make a sandwich that's not available at the Shoppe.

Just my $.02

 

[darkzero]

The truth is, I have never bought a Sandwich "kit" from the Shoppe before although I spend most of my hard earned cash at the Shoppe and will continue too. I do have two YC built sandwiches but these were gifts from my brother who dissapeared from CPF and are the first two luxeons I've ever owned (these two little guys got me addicted).

It's not that I'm trying to save a buck or two, it's just that I have many preferred luxeons that I'd rather use for Sandwiches and rather than buying a sandwich and swapping out the emitter for one of mine I simply build my own. I love to build things! I also hate waiting for good binned sandwiches to be released and it seems when they do I'm broke at the time. I also like to build sandwiches for myself with specs that aren't offered at the Shoppe. I never have built sandwiches with the sole purpose of reselling them here though.

I don't have any sort of jig that I use to make my sandwiches but I do have a method that makes it easier for me. I would like one of Wayne's jigs for soldering but if releasing it to the public would affect the sales of sandwiches from the Shoppe dramatically, I vote no, do not make them public. If someone wants to make sandwiches and sell them here cheaper to make some bucks, let them work harder to do so. I'm not trying to put anyone down but if it comes down to taking a bit of business away from Wayne which I see as bringing the Shoppe "down" just a little bit, I'm against it. I'd seriously be lost without the Shoppe. I know that this wouldn't put the Shoppe out of business but I won't risk that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif

 

[utomatoe]

I think it should be ok to release them. Although I'm not quite sure on the economics of things. If someone was to start producing sandwiches, they would need pcbs made (ok, not that expensive), circuits soldered on... (not sure here, getting more expensive). Large quantities come to mind, i.e. lots of money needed.

Chances are if they invest money is a large quantity of circuit boards intended for sandwich production, producing their own fixture module or using the one you made wouldn't make that large a difference?

Of course, if just down by hand, pcbs, circuits, etc. chances are a person could produce quite a few sandwiches to seriously compete with the shoppe.

On the other hand, for modders, i think this is one of the harder steps? I personally have a tough time with working with something so small, soldering and then epoxying it (proper height, making sure it's level), is an adventure, not to mention if you screw up, epoxy isn't the easiest to remove/adjust afterwards...

Just a few of my random thoughts...

EDIT: I'd love to get one of these, and I promise not to resell sandwiches /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

In anycase, for gift lights, I use the sandwichs I buy, not make, because I'd trust Wayne's workmanship over mine hands down.

 

[Flatscan]

gadget_lover's post made me come back to the point mentioned in Wayne's original post: the parts for these "competing" sandwiches have to come from somewhere. I think the emitters themselves are likely to come from other sources, but the boards (in particular the converters) will be bought at the Shoppe.

If someone unknown orders a whole bunch of sandwich parts and a jig, something is fishy and could be blocked right here. The numbers required to make this venture profitable would be easily recognizable at both purchase and sale.

If the assumption that the boards will be acquired from the Shoppe is false, there is a larger problem than an assembly jig. An adversary, with malice aforethought, will have reverse-engineered/copied the Shoppe's boards and fabbed them independently.

 

[dat2zip]

OK,

I won't delve into what fears me the most. Someone pilfering my hard earned work and copying it. It happens way to often. Instead of living in fear, I'm going to take a chance, jump off the ledge and Yippiiieee.... Here goes.

I'm going to ask CPF'ers to respect the store. Those that need the fixture will need to send me a PM or email. If I know who you are (I know most of you...) then it should be a problem.

For those looking for it, you could offer them the info offline (PM or email).

In this way the fixture is not publicly discussed and I can safely remove this thread since enough of you will know how to get it and to pass the info (back door) to other fellow CPF'ers looking.

Just be aware that I probably won't have any fixtures currently and it will take 1day to 1week before I can make one. Probably on the following weekend I get a request I can queue one up in the mold.

If that sound fine, I'll leave this thread till the weekend or so for additional comments and feedback.

I'm assuming a request a week. If I get more than that I can only build 1-2 a day with the single mold. It would not be hard for me to pour one each night and unmold it the following day.

Right now my schedule is really bad. I've had one solid day in the last week to work on shoppe related items. The rest of the time is family/friends and baseball.

Thanks everyone that has commented so far.

Larry,

Umm, are you suggesting I make a fixture for you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[balrog]

I can't see why many people would need the fixture for their personal needs. You don't need the fixture to make the modules so it really is for the person that wants to make half a dozen or more. I'd rather not see them for sale in order to protect the Shoppe.

Still, for those people that know that they are available and you trust, you could sell them on a case by case basis.