Elephant II in the room...Incan vs. LED...Incan Wins!...for now

[flashfiend]

***Reasons it won for me (for this high power setup): Throw, Color Rendition, and finally because I can hold it for longer than 3 minutes (hi-power LEDs throw too much heat toward my hand).

Not to . But I'd like opinions on what to do with an FM Ellie II I just ordered.

Incan vs. LED

Looking at my options I can get a KIU bi-pin socket (w/ AW or JimmyM regulator) and use it with a proper Osram bulb or I can build a 2x or 3x sst-series LED (w/ H6Flex driver). Either would be powered by AW IMR18650's.

I don't want to get into too much of a discussion on which is brighter as both setups will be more than bright enough (so ignoring actual total output, the current for either is similar to me). However I 'd like to know the pros and cons as you see it of either one. For me right now the main issue is complexity of build. I've never built an LED based light before and don't even have the soldering equipment to do it. I don't know if anyone does this but I might even ask someone local to me on the forum to use their equipment and advisement. The incan on the other hand is much easier.

***Just remembered I am considering a neo-fab 6.5A Mag drop-in when neoseikan releases them. An easier LED route but I'm not that drawn to the multi-XPG's he is thinking about using.

 

[somber]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

Incan uses power less efficiently, is easier to break, and it'll burn out quicker.

LED is none of these things, and it'll last 100x longer, but it doesn't have as good 'color rendering' for outdoors, if that's important to you.

...so what advantages does INCAN have at all? It's old technology.

 

[Locoboy5150]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

...so what advantages does INCAN have at all? It's old technology.

Old tech versus new tech. This is a very common theme in the car and truck crowds that I also hang out with. I'm an old tech guy when it comes to vehicles.

But, back to lights, in general I think incandescent lights also throw further for less money compared to LEDs.

Don't overlook the color rendering advantages to incandescents. That can be a *huge* benefit for some people that can see the difference. Everyone's eyes are different though so some people may not be able to.

 

[flashfiend]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

Incan uses power less efficiently, is easier to break, and it'll burn out quicker.

LED is none of these things, and it'll last 100x longer, but it doesn't have as good 'color rendering' for outdoors, if that's important to you.

...so what advantages does INCAN have at all? It's old technology.

Incans are easier to replace when there are problems and I'm discussing a high power setup here. So if you look at a fm1909 @ 5.4 amps and a sst-90 @ 9 amps both with similar outputs efficiency is inconsequential.

 

[fareast]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

Incan uses power less efficiently, is easier to break, and it'll burn out quicker.

LED is none of these things, and it'll last 100x longer, but it doesn't have as good 'color rendering' for outdoors, if that's important to you.

...so what advantages does INCAN have at all? It's old technology.

To me, one of the biggest advantages are the rendering of colour in nature (outside of the city) and the higher surface brightness (which makes for much better throw).

So when I need the above, I will use my big and heavy and long running FM-ed MagCharger.

Oh, I also like it's oldschool simplicity... If it doesn't work, it's always the bulb... and it's a very handsome club oo:.

 

[flashfiend]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

This is an Elephant II so it is too short to be a club. However I do like your other talking points.

 

[Roger999]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

Incan uses power less efficiently, is easier to break, and it'll burn out quicker.

LED is none of these things, and it'll last 100x longer, but it doesn't have as good 'color rendering' for outdoors, if that's important to you.

...so what advantages does INCAN have at all? It's old technology.

When you get to bigger lights you won't find any single die led emitters capable of putting out 15k lumens.
It "cuts" through fog and rain better than LEDs from the experience of a lot of people.
From what I can tell, I get better depth perception.
Better throw.

 

[flashfiend]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

I've heard that incans may cut through fog better but I've never considered improved depth perception. Better throw I know from experience. The best LED throwers are not the brightest LED's typically. Of course I already have both incan and LED throwers.

*I should have stated this in the original post but this light will have a nominal 14.8V pack, so any suggestions of pros and cons should have this in mind. This will be a somewhat high power setup.

 

[flashfiend]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

Let me clarify more on what configurations I am considering so you all can hopefully provide me with more focused advice.

LED:

Der Wichtel Triple Heatsink
w/ 3xssr-90 @ 5amps
or
w/ 3xP7 @ 2.8amps

or

Neoseikan (Neo-Fab) Mag dropin w/ 4-5x XPG @ 6.5amps

Incan:

AW Soft Start switch w/ Kiu socket
and Osram 64610 bulb

Please help me consider the pros and cons for each with the understanding that in addition to cost, I only have theoretical understanding of how to assemble LED setup but not yet the technical skill or equipment (hoping a CPF member would be willing to help). The drop-in and incans are easier but I'm not completely sold on them. I like the cool facto of the Der Wichtel sink w/ LED's. The neo-fab is a little unappealing because he's only looking to release it in a single level and at this brightness level it's not very useable.

 

[flashfiend]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

Looking at the numbers and other features, I'm being drawn more and more towards an incandescent setup. Anyone else want to convince me otherwise?

Features: Incans have more throw and spill and don't make the host as hot as quickly as high powered LED's

Numbers:

Osram 64610 - 2500+ projected bulb lumens

vs.

3x sst-series LED - 3000+ calculated emitter lumens.

 

[alpg88]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

i have both 3xp7 Der Wichtel mag 4d running on 6x18650,
4.5 d mag with aw soft start, 50w halogen, running on 4x 32650 li ions with 2,5FM throw master.

they are 2 different animals
Der Wichtel light is a pure flood, thou it shoots relatively far, very bright at full power, but heats up too much after 10 or so min. have to cool it off, or run at 70 or less%, i always run on 70% it is not much dimmer , and heats up less.

halogen is a pure throw, also extremely bright, even 2 feet away from the light you feel heat, heat is not an enemy to halogen, i can run it till battery trip their protection, and it wont harm it.

depth perception is colors are more appealing and look natural with halogen.
but i like both.

as for there is nothing to brake in led light, lol ever had a driver , or led ??

if i had to chose just one, i'd flip a coin, but would try whatever necessary to have both

 

[Raoul_Duke]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

I have always liked Incan.

But in true CPF form ( you could) buy both!!!

Buy incan first ..... Hears why.

Its So Simple. and I'd suggest doint this in this order.

Cheapest entry lvl use a Kiu socket'ed mag switch with resitance fixes. ( if you dont have the soldering gear I could do it for you..or I would imagine you have enough US based CPFers that would hook you up for a beer or two)

AW D SS driver. 3 levels runtime, less stress & more life out of lamps. Low for runtime, medium, well... for middle of the road. High OMG s ( No fuss just plug and play)

Jimmy M or Alan B. regulators for incan heaven. ( also stops you having to judge when you should switch off... although thats fairly obvious.

You have a Huge choice of lamps...the 50W you mentioned not cutting it?...go 100W or 150W with a 4 cell setup. Want more runtime pop in a lower watt lamp.

Lamps are Cheap...$5? ( look into the IRC lamps, worth the extra ) Can be bought in hardware stores if you run short for cheap.

Change reflectors 2", 2.5", 3", 3.5" 4" ( now even 4.5" with par 36 lamps) easily enough ( If you can find the rarer ones.) just screw on different head/ reflector setup ( larger head more throw.)

I have never broke an incan lamp...look at the size of the fillament they are V-robust ( I have instaflashed though before luxs fantastic tests...but that was pushing the envelope for the brightest build.)

Then once you have all that...a simple screw of one allen key and you can pull apart with your hands.

Then you can ruin it all by building your nice complex LED build when you have more experience and use the same cells. The LED will go out of date by the time you have finnished your mod...you will look at everything in a ghostly pale blue light...:nana:

Prehaps I should let the led guys go thought the benifits of what they do best!!! :nana:

 

[flashfiend]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

I already have both LED's and incans and right now I don't have interest in buying another Elephant to do both. No way am I going to use a 100-150w bulb with 4x18650. I want some runtime.

alpg88, those were exactly the answers I was looking for and very similar to the setups I am considering. I really can't stand how high power LED's heat up the host, so definitely a big negative. Btw, what 50w bulb are you using for your setup?

 

[Raoul_Duke]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

I already have both LED's and incans and right now I don't have interest in buying another Elephant to do both. No way am I going to use a 100-150w bulb with 4x18650. I want some runtime.

alpg88, those were exactly the answers I was looking for and very similar to the setups I am considering. I really can't stand how high power LED's heat up the host, so definitely a big negative. Btw, what 50w bulb are you using for your setup?

No no no, :thinking:
I meant you can use the same host for different builds, but start with a simple incan as its easiest.
Thats why I said incan 'first'. Its cheaper and easier and then a simple screw of one allen key you can pull the incan host apart and then try an led mod.
For the sake of a $16 kiu socket and a $5 lamp it worth a try before you go headfirst into a complex SST LED build.
You can try a 100 or 150W lamp for $5. I was trying to tell you you can chose your brighness setting with a lamp or a driver.
You get runtime with the regulators and AW Switch. It gives you 3 levels with different amount of 'some' runtime on each.
Alan B or Jimmy M can give you more levels.

 

[flashfiend]

Re: Elephant II in the room...Incan vs. LED

No, no, no, I don't think you realize I have incan builds already w/ AW switches. I'm not the type of person to have several parts for one host. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have parts not installed into a proper host.

But don't let my tone discourage you, I really do appreciate you trying to help me. Just understand this isn't my first rodeo. The high power LED setup should be my next frontier. But because of the heat issue and the fact it draws similar current to hotwire setups, I see no real advantage to them other than coolness factor. At least up until this point. In a way I'm looking to get convinced into an LED setup but as of now the arguments are kind of light.

 

[alpg88]

Re: Elephant II in the room...I vs. L

alpg88, those were exactly the answers I was looking for and very similar to the setups I am considering. I really can't stand how high power LED's heat up the host, so definitely a big negative. Btw, what 50w bulb are you using for your setup?

new kit from Der Wichtel has improved heatsink, also multimode driver is a must for that kit imo. but despite of its flaws, it is awesome kit.
i use philips 50w bulb i got at home depot, with filament along the bulb, not across, i doubt it is the most efficient bulb, but it works great. someday i'll try other bulbs.

you can't drive halogen at 20% or 5%, it wont be usefill much, led wil have no problem doing that, plus with 3xp7 kit, i rearly need 100% almost never, i use 70% , but 20% most of the time. unless i wanna blind everyone around.

 

[Raoul_Duke]

Re: Elephant II in the room...Incan vs. LED

No, no, no, I don't think you realize I have incan builds already w/ AW switches. I'm not the type of person to have several parts for one host. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have parts not installed into a proper host.

No I didn't realise that. LOL we differ there...I'm a horder of flashlight bits and bobs. I think I have bits I'll probably never use...Infact I have flashlights I have payed for and never arranged to be shipped to be sent yet by people I don't even know :laughing:

But don't let my tone discourage you, I really do appreciate you trying to help me. Just understand this isn't my first rodeo. The high power LED setup should be my next frontier. But because of the heat issue and the fact it draws similar current to hotwire setups, I see no real advantage to them other than coolness factor. At least up until this point. In a way I'm looking to get convinced into an LED setup but as of now the arguments are kind of light.

Sorry I guess from the post it was as I didn't recognise your username, I also see little advantage of LED over incan in this size light, dont get me wrong, incan is having a hard time Vs LED in the 6P size host dept, but for larger lights I prefer a good old incan...for me at the minute LED's are not there Yet so I dont think they are that cool, other than the tint.

Send me your addy and I'll send you a 64623 or 2...that will stop you thinking about leds for a while :twothumbs

 

[flashfiend]

Re: Elephant II in the room...Incan vs. LED

Thank you so much for the offer, but at a 10 amp draw the 64623 abandons any semblance of practicality. 5-10 minute runtime does not do it for me.

 

[flashfiend]

Re: Elephant II in the room...Incan vs. LED

Posted an order for an Alan B regulator for the Osram 64610. Apparently Incan has won for now.

 

[KeyGrip]

I think you'll be happy with your choice. Incandescent hotwires are really fun.